I really hope that dude is at least getting off to himself

if not, this is pretty sad

3/22/2012 8:29:52 PM

here, I'll quote it for you:

Quote :

"At the very least, this conflicting account of what happened would cause any competent police officer to doubt a claim of self-defense and arrest Zimmerman. "

3/22/2012 8:30:19 PM

Quote :

"While it might make you a moron, it's not illegal and you would have the right to defend yourself in the situation I described."

you would have a right to defend yourself, but you should also be held accountable for the results of your actions. You caused the situation, and I'm not gonna say you should allowed to be beaten to death for it, but you should be culpable for creating a situation that you had no need to create. That's why we have these people called "police" who we train to chase after criminals.

Quote :

"Also, if Trayvon hadn't ran, then none of this would have likely happened."

this is true, but it's also akin to blaming a woman for being raped after she told a guy "no." He was getting away from a threatening situation, as opposed to the guy who specifically created the threatening situation.

Quote :

"See, once again, it can go both ways."

No, it really can't go both ways. You DON'T HAVE THE FUCKING RIGHT TO FOLLOW WHOEVER THE FUCK YOU WANT TO. Have you never heard of "stalking laws"? That, specifically, shows that you don't have the right to follow someone.

Quote :

"Zimmerman had every right to follow someone he thought might have committed a crime in order to direct the police to their where abouts."

Aside from the fact that he doesn't have the right to stalk whoever the fuck he wants, he had zero reasonable reason to think that this guy was a criminal. He had the right to call 911 and tell the police the guy was there, but that's the end of it. it's the job of the fucking police to chase criminals.

Quote :

"This is not illegal and all the time citizens get awards for this shit when its an actual criminal. "

And when they are wrong, then they have violated the rights of innocent people simply because the vigilante is a nosy busybody. Again, that's why we have fucking police. An accountable, and, most importantly, TRAINED force to handle these things. Because THIS SITUATION is exactly what happens when you allow vigilante justice. I'd much rather have a group of people that I can actually hold accountable and TRACK do the job of hunting down and investigating crime, instead of whatever Tom, Dick, and Harry decides to go out and play Jessica Fletcher.

Quote :

"You are just looking at it as Zimmerman knew he was chasing an innocent kid just because he was black and not realizing at the time of the incident, he thought he was chasing a criminal."

So as long as the guy can jump to completely illogical conclusions, then he can go play super hero and do whatever the fuck he wants. we don't ask that he actually behave and think rationally. We just go on his hunches, because there's no way he could be wrong. no way at all he could ever be wrong! I mean, he's George Fucking Zimmerman. Surely you've heard of George Zimmerman! No, i don't give a fuck WHAT George Zimmerman thought he was doing. it doesn't matter one god damned bit. he chased down a kid and then shot him, simply because he thought he might be a criminal. Did he see the kid robbing a house? No. Did he see the kid carrying a TV? No. He just saw the kid. And then assumed he was a criminal. And that's enough for you. All you need is to jump to a conclusion, and that's it, you're absolved of whatever else you do.

Quote :

"As I've said, if it were this simple, he would have been arrested by now, which he hasn't."

That assumes that the police aren't incompetent hacks who didn't give a fuck about a dead black kid.

Quote :

"Dead unnarmed body? Yes, we know that now, but at the time Zimmerman did not know."

So, the fact that he was completely and totally wrong doesn't matter one god damned bit to you? The fact that he was so stupidly wrong doesn't make you think that maybe, just maybe, his absolute insistence that this kid was a criminal engaging in a criminal act wasn't the most foolproof idea. Who gives a fuck what actually happened. As long as George Zimmerman thinks you're guilty, he can chase you down! There's literally no reason for anyone to feel threatened that a random guy is following them. There's no reason for anyone to think there's something wrong with that.

Quote :

"Like I said, during the altercation perhaps Trayvon was going for his cell phone and Zimmerman mistook it for a gun and shot him in self defense."

Maybe that's a good reason for an untrained person NOT TO FUCKING FOLLOW PEOPLE. Don't you think?

Quote :

"So this whole "OMG the dude had a gun and was racist, Trayvon had every reason to run" argument is basically null and void."

Uh, no it's not. He saw a random black kid walking down the street and assumed he was a criminal, even going so far as to mutter "fucking coons" on the 911 call.

Quote :

"I'm pissed at the people that are just automatically calling for this guys head for "shooting an innocent child" without even considering that there might be another story."

And, yet, as I said before, you STILL don't think it's absurd for George Zimmerman to think there was only one possibility of a kid walking down the street: he's a fucking criminal.

Quote :

"If they were in their gated neighborhood I wouldn't expect my teenage son to just take off running."

there's that magic gate again. that gate makes everyone perfectly safe and takes away anyone's need to walk! it's a wonderful gate!!!

Quote :

"Has anyone considered that this kid might have actually been doing something illegal while walking home from the store and fled because he thought he was in trouble?"

Have you fucking considered that this kid was just walking home with a bag of skittles and a bottle of tea and was just minding his own business? probably not.

Quote :

"But Zimmerman's state of mind at the time was that he was following a criminal."

which he shouldn't have been fucking doing because HE'S NOT A GOD DAMNED MOTHER FUCKING COP. And he thought he was following a criminal because... right, the kid was black. and walking. You refuse to question whether or not the immediate and unshakeable assumption that this kid was a criminal was a logical assumption.

Quote :

"I and apparently the cops agree, that following a presumed suspect in order to establish location for the cops to confront said suspect is entirely reasonable. "

No, the cops aren't saying that. They are saying they don't give a fuck that a black kid is dead.

Quote :

"Zimmerman claims he was attacked by Trayvon."

Well, lets get the other guy's side of the story. Trayvon, why don't you tell us what happened? Trayvon? Hey, Trayvon, please talk to us. Well, he aint saying anything, clearly he's guilty.

Quote :

"Given the laws in Florida, this is the same as if one of us shot an intruder into our home. The evidence as it stands, shows that I shot the intruded out of fear for my safety."

OK, let's flip it around. You drag a random person into your house. That person then tries to fight you off. You then "fear for your safety." Using your logic, it's OK to kill that person now.

Quote :

"So its not reasonable to think someone could have a cell phone and gun on them?"

No, but if he's already talking on the phone, then unreasonable to now assume that Trayvon is going to reach for his phone to begin talking on it, thus surprising Dudley Dooright.

Quote :

"The police did not do a toxicity test on Zimmerman (they're supposed to) - Lack of evicence is not evidence"

True, but it shows that the police did a shitty job. They didn't do something they were SUPPOSED to do, and something that fucking makes sense to do. Yet you think that's A-OK. The police did a fine job!!! Hey, they did a drug test on the dead guy.

Quote :

"Zimmerman first claimed that Trayvon attacked him from behind in the Miami Herald...this could not have happened according to eyewitness testimony - Witnesses can lie"

Except for George Zimmerman, who has no reason to lie!

Quote :

"by the way, cops need probable cause to make an arrest. They have that. make the arrest. let the courts settle the rest"

And all George Zimmerman needs is a hunch. and then he can KILL YOU.

3/22/2012 8:30:19 PM

Quote :

"At the very least, this conflicting account of what happened would cause any competent police officer to doubt a claim of self-defense and arrest Zimmerman."

What conflicting report?

Zimmerman says he was attacked by Trayvon.

He is bloody and has obviously been in a fight.

To the officers its a pretty clear case of self defense at this point.

Doubtful they talked to the GF at this point, and her "account" surfaced after the fact.

You seriously think she is gonna be like "Oh yeah, I didn't hear anything"

She, like Zimmerman, knows she can basically say whatever she wants to and there is nothing to prove otherwise.

3/22/2012 8:30:50 PM

what a crappy state to live in...

3/22/2012 8:31:19 PM

AND THE GUY WHO JUST SHOT AND KILLED SOMEONE

HE COULDN'T POSSIBLY BE LYING RIGHT?

LOOK WHAT YOU DON'T REALIZE YOU FUCKING IDIOT

IS THAT AT THE SAME TIME YOU'RE SAYING "LET'S NOT JUDGE ZIMMERMAN"

YOU'RE ALSO JUDGING TRAYVON

BY SAYING HE MUST HAVE BEEN UP TO SOMETHING

OR HE MUST HAVE BEEN DOING SOMETHING TO PROVOKE HIM

OR THAT HE MUST HAVE THREATENED HIS LIFE

BECAUSE IT COULDN'T POSSIBLY BE TRUE THAT A GUY JUST STRAIGHT UP MURDERED A KID

DUE TO RACIAL PREJUDICES

IT'S NOT LIKE THAT HASN'T HAPPENED THOUSANDS OF TIMES IN THE PAST CENTURY

WHEREAS YOUR FUCKED UP SCENARIO HAS NEVER HAPPENED EVER IN THE HISTORY OF CRIME

BUT WHATEVER FULFILLS YOUR JUST-WORLD VICTIM-BLAMING IDEOLOGY

3/22/2012 8:31:39 PM

Quote :

"Doubtful they talked to the GF at this point, and her "account" surfaced after the fact. "

weeks later, Zimmerman still hasn't been arrested.

[Edited on March 22, 2012 at 8:36 PM. Reason : g]

3/22/2012 8:35:52 PM

There is no EVIDENCE that he just straight up killed the kid for no reason.

Not saying he didn't.

But Zimmerman was attacked.

It is POSSIBLE he felt the need to defend himself.

I'm not saying "lets not judge Zimmerman"

I'm given a plausible scenario that could have happened to show what occurred other than just shooting some random kid because he hates black people.

3/22/2012 8:37:50 PM

Quote :

"But Zimmerman was attacked."

Has anyone OTHER than Zimmerman confirmed this?

3/22/2012 8:38:32 PM

Quote :

"Has anyone considered that this kid might have actually been doing something illegal while walking home from the store and fled because he thought he was in trouble"

even though this is absurdly hypothetical to the point that I want to stab my eyes out after reading it, if that's your line of thinking, then you're saying that it was ok to kill the kid because he had done something illegal that he wasn't witnessed doing

how fucking insane is that?

3/22/2012 8:38:34 PM

Quote :

"He has stated that he gave up his search and was walking back to his truck when he was attacked by Trayvon."

but... witnesses lie. except for George Zimmerman.

Quote :

"Hell, this guy got off the hook and he basically chased the suspect down and killed him."

He got off the hook? How? What thing did he do? Are you saying you now have evidence that Trayvon Martin had, in fact, committed a crime? What crime was that? WHERE IS THIS EVIDENCE? You've just PROVEN that you are assuming Trayvon was up to no good, despite any evidence to actually support it. Jesus, dude.

Quote :

"Once again, take this situation into account since some of you don't understand how this works."

Yeah, let's take a made up situation and apply it to a real life one. Oh, and let's not even care that someone has already explained why your made-up situation is an equally bad one and you haven't even bothered to defend it. Nope, let's just keep bringing up random shit.

Quote :

"Not saying she is lying, but its basically her word against his."

So, out of curiosity, why is her word terrible? Why is Zimmerman's word compelling to you?

Quote :

"Her BF just got killed by this dude. You don't think its possible that she is lying?"

HE JUST KILLED A KID. YOU DON'T THINK THAT HE HAS A REASON TO LIE?

Quote :

"In this case, the "knife" is the cell phone that Zimmerman COULD have mistaken for a gun."

You mean, the cell phone that Trayvon was already talking on? He was talking on his cell phone, which he then pulled out to talk on, startling Zimmerman. That's your story?

Quote :

"Zimmerman says he was attacked by Trayvon. He is bloody and has obviously been in a fight. To the officers its a pretty clear case of self defense at this point. "

Well, shit, no need to do any investigation, then. It's just a dead nigger, right? Oh, we're supposed to do a drug test on the shooter? Fuck that, it's a pretty clear case of self defense! Who needs to collect evidence? it's just a dead nigger!

Quote :

"But Zimmerman was attacked."

WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE FOR THAT? WHERE IS THE FUCKING EVIDENCE?

3/22/2012 8:38:35 PM

well fuck, while we're just making shit up, how do you know he didn't attack the kid and trayvon headbutted the shit out of him and knocked him on his ass?

[Edited on March 22, 2012 at 8:40 PM. Reason : ]

3/22/2012 8:39:12 PM

Quote :

"And all George Zimmerman needs is a hunch. and then he can KILL YOU."

Reasonable citizen and reasonable officer standards are not the same thing. Citizens can potentially act on a hunch, the police cannot.

Quote :

"True, but it shows that the police did a shitty job."

Usually, its the M.E. that does the autopsy and toxicology, not the police.

3/22/2012 8:40:05 PM

Holy shit, tacolu or whatever is making people INSANE ITT. I am pretty sure this dude is a good troll. Nobody who can type words on a computer can possibly be THAT stupid.

[Edited on March 22, 2012 at 8:42 PM. Reason : ]

3/22/2012 8:41:06 PM

Quote :

"I'm given a plausible scenario that could have happened to show what occurred other than just shooting some random kid because he hates black people."

and, AGAIN, no one here is saying that he shot the kid because he hates black people. jesus. is this really what is going on in your fucked up head? There's only two possibilities: dude shot a kid because he hates black people or dude was only defending himself and couldn't possibly have contributed to the situation in any unreasonable way?

3/22/2012 8:41:26 PM

Quote :

"Nobody who can type words on a computer can possible be THAT stupid."

You've never seen geniusxboy post, have you

3/22/2012 8:41:41 PM

26 BOYS IN MY CRAWLSPACE?

CASTLE DOCTRINE

3/22/2012 8:42:08 PM

Quote :

"Usually, its the M.E. that does the autopsy and toxicology, not the police."

I think they're talking about doing a tox screen on Zimmerman.

3/22/2012 8:42:29 PM

I think we can all agree to stop responding to tacolu at this point.

3/22/2012 8:44:24 PM

Well you have too look at this from both perspectives, there is no evidence suggesting Zimmerman was attacked other than his testimony and on the other hand there is no evidence suggesting that Martin was doing anything illegal or attacked Zimmerman. It might end up a push in the end because nothing can be proved either way.

The worst case scenario would be a sham trial to appease those who demand justice. Now you have charged and arrested a man because of the pressure and put the burden of the trial on the taxpayers. What if he got convicted because of prejudiced?

Ah, the beauty of the American legal system.

3/22/2012 8:44:59 PM

Quote :

"Well you have too look at this from both perspectives, there is no evidence suggesting Zimmerman was attacked other than his testimony and on the other hand there is no evidence suggesting that Martin was doing anything illegal or attacked Zimmerman. It might end up a push in the end because nothing can be proved either way. "

THANK FUCKING GOD

Someone gets it.

This is basically what I've been trying to explain to these idiots for the better part of 3hours.


Well there is also the evidence of his bloody nose and head.

But I guess you could argue that he did that to himself.

[Edited on March 22, 2012 at 8:47 PM. Reason : ,]

3/22/2012 8:46:27 PM

Quote :

"I think they're talking about doing a tox screen on Zimmerman."

I would assume that shooting someone in Florida isn't an implied consent offense

3/22/2012 8:46:45 PM

^^^ I think that you should proofread that, make the necessary edits, and let us know when you're done.

[Edited on March 22, 2012 at 8:47 PM. Reason : carats]

3/22/2012 8:46:46 PM

the sheriff stepped down temporarily and there is going to be a new prosecutor, looks like this guy is going to jail where he belongs.

[Edited on March 22, 2012 at 8:49 PM. Reason : the guy had a gun and the kid had a bag of damn skittles!]

3/22/2012 8:48:03 PM

The law of the land will take its course. Not about who is guilty or whose testimony is right. But the guy should be arrested or God's sake. That's what this whole discussion is about!

3/22/2012 8:49:11 PM

Quote :

"I would assume that shooting someone in Florida isn't an implied consent offense"

I think the thought behind this, is that they could have asked to do a tox screen if they suspected he was under the influence. I don't know what the burden is for that, if he refused (probable cause?), but I don't know.

I don't like the idea of doing a tox screen on everyone involved on either side of a crime, but it might have been a good idea in this situation.

3/22/2012 8:49:37 PM

^^^You're missing the point.

There is no evidence to disprove his story.

There are no witnesses to the actual crime.

No surveliance footage, no pictures, no confessions.

As fucked up as that is, he is more than likely not going to get arrested.

As far as the state of Florida is concerned he was defending himself.

Why can't some of you understand this?

[Edited on March 22, 2012 at 8:50 PM. Reason : ,]

3/22/2012 8:50:01 PM

Quote :

"Well you have too look at this from both perspectives, there is no evidence suggesting Zimmerman was attacked other than his testimony and on the other hand there is no evidence suggesting that Martin was doing anything illegal or attacked Zimmerman. It might end up a push in the end because nothing can be proved either way. "

On the other hand, Zimmerman originally stalked Trayvon because he was doing absolutely nothing threatening or illegal. And then he confronted him with a loaded gun.

But I guess WE DONT KNOW WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THAT SO WE SHOULDNT JUDGE RIGHT

3/22/2012 8:50:41 PM

You still don't understand. The burden of proof is on him to prove his story.

If "nothing can be proved either way" then that mean Zimmerman fails to justify his actions and is FUCKING GUILTY OF MURDER.

[Edited on March 22, 2012 at 8:52 PM. Reason : asdfadsf]

3/22/2012 8:50:43 PM

Quote :

"As far as the state of Florida is concerned he was defending himself."

When Zimmerman originally saw Trayvon, how was his life threatened?

Just answer that.

3/22/2012 8:51:15 PM

yeah, you don't get the benefit of the doubt because you silenced the other witness.

3/22/2012 8:51:25 PM

it's very simple to me:

Gun vs. bag of skittles

3/22/2012 8:51:41 PM

This is awesome - I'm going to go to Florida and start murdering people left and right when no one is around and just yell "self defense" every time and admit to it so I can go free.

3/22/2012 8:52:05 PM

Quote :

"As far as the state of Florida is concerned he was defending himself."

You have no fucking idea how the criminal justice system works.

I can't just do something against the law, claim a defense, and then avoid prosecution.

Your defense is something you present in court after you are arrested for the crime.

The police/DA have MORE than enough evidence to bring charges forth against Zimmerman. Then Zimmerman can plead his self-defense case IN A COURT OF LAW.

I can't just fucking punch you in the face and say "OFFICER I PLEAD INSANITY" and the officer can go, "Whelp he pleaded insanity I guess I shouldn't arrest him for this crime DURRR!"

3/22/2012 8:53:02 PM

^^^^^It wasn't.

At all.

At the time he was following a suspected criminal who then attacked him.

Whether Zimmerman attacked him first or Trayvon attacked Zimmerman first, we may never know.

But at some point in that scuffle, which there are no phone recordings or witnesses of, Zimmerman is claiming self defense for whatever reason he has given to the cops.

He has a bloody nose and a bloody head which corroborates his claim.

[Edited on March 22, 2012 at 8:54 PM. Reason : ,]

3/22/2012 8:54:00 PM

Quote :

"This is awesome - I'm going to go to Florida and start murdering people left and right when no one is around and just yell "self defense" every time and admit to it so I can go free."

3/22/2012 8:54:24 PM

Quote :

"At the time he was following a suspected criminal who then attacked him. Whether Zimmerman attacked him first or Trayvon attacked Zimmerman first, we may never know."

DOES NOT COMPUTE

3/22/2012 8:55:40 PM

Quote :

"I think the thought behind this, is that they could have asked to do a tox screen if they suspected he was under the influence. I don't know what the burden is for that, if he refused (probable cause?), but I don't know."

In NC, you could ask but if they refused there is no implied consent or compel that I know of. You would have to apply for a search warrant.

3/22/2012 8:55:53 PM

What situations would warrant implied consent? Or enough to compel?

3/22/2012 8:56:34 PM

Quote :

"You have no fucking idea how the criminal justice system works. I can't just do something against the law, claim a defense, and then avoid prosecution. Your defense is something you present in court after you are arrested for the crime. The police/DA have MORE than enough evidence to bring charges forth against Zimmerman. Then Zimmerman can plead his self-defense case IN A COURT OF LAW. I can't just fucking punch you in the face and say "OFFICER I PLEAD INSANITY" and the officer can go, "Whelp he pleaded insanity I guess I shouldn't arrest him for this crime DURRR!""

Yes I do.

And yes you can.

If you are at home, and someone breaks into your house and you shoot and kill them out of fear for your life, you aren't going to be arrested. Trust me. Ask any lawyer. Go, do it, look it up online do what you need to do.

Now, if it turns out that that person coming into your house had been fucking your wife, and the cops find out about it later, and learn that you killed that person out of revenge knowing sure and well that he was only coming into your house to fuck your wife, not to commit a crime, then you will be arrested for murder.

3/22/2012 8:57:01 PM

Quote :

"At the time he was following a suspected criminal who then attacked him."

Okay, try this again, except this time say how the events occurred for Trayvon's perspective.

3/22/2012 8:57:26 PM

^^how is that scenario at all relevant? There is NO evidence that Martin was doing anything wrong.

3/22/2012 8:58:20 PM

well the authors of the "Stand your ground" law think the guy should be arrested. I'm guessing they know alot more about the law.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57401619-504083/author-of-stand-your-ground-law-george-zimmerman-should-probably-be-arrested-for-killing-trayvon-martin/

3/22/2012 8:58:30 PM

Quote :

"Yes I do. And yes you can. If you are at home, and someone breaks into your house and you shoot and kill them out of fear for your life, you aren't going to be arrested. Trust me. Ask any lawyer. Go, do it, look it up online do what you need to do. Now, if it turns out that that person coming into your house had been fucking your wife, and the cops find out about it later, and learn that you killed that person out of revenge knowing sure and well that he was only coming into your house to fuck your wife, not to commit a crime, then you will be arrested for murder."

You keep on coming up with all of these scenarios like "what if someone breaks into your house" or "what if someone is raping your wife" or "what if someone is robbing a bank" to justify shooting them

but you keep avoiding coming up with a hypothetical that's like "what if someone is doing absolutely nothing threatening or illegal"

3/22/2012 8:58:48 PM

Quote :

"Okay, try this again, except this time say how the events occurred for Trayvon's perspective. "

I have.

Zimmerman thought he was pursuing a criminal, Trayvon thought a criminal was pursuing him.

So when they do cross paths and get into an altercation each of them is going to be reasonably assuming that they are each defending themselves from a criminal that means them harm.

[Edited on March 22, 2012 at 9:00 PM. Reason : ,]

3/22/2012 8:59:03 PM

And only one of them had the right to confront their attacker.

Hint: It wasn't Zimmerman.

3/22/2012 8:59:36 PM

I think Trayvon would have had more justification to kill Zimmerman, who was following him with a loaded gun.

But do you think Trayvon would have gone home after that?

[Edited on March 22, 2012 at 9:01 PM. Reason : Trayvon]

3/22/2012 9:00:58 PM

Quote :

" but you keep avoiding coming up with a hypothetical that's like "what if someone is doing absolutely nothing threatening or illegal""

Once Trayvon attacked Zimmerman who he thought was a criminal, Zimmerman had every right to defend himself from Trayvon who he thought was a criminal also and meant him harm.

Fucking Christ, why is this so hard for some of you to understand.

3/22/2012 9:01:37 PM

Quote :

"Once Trayvon attacked Zimmerman who he thought was a criminal, Zimmerman had every right to defend himself from Trayvon who he thought was a criminal also and meant him harm."

Since this didn't happen, will you admit that Zimmerman had no right to defend himself?

3/22/2012 9:02:35 PM

Because Zimmerman's life wasn't threatened until he decided to pursue his lifelong fantasy of being Robocop by confronting an unarmed teenager who wasn't doing anything illegal.

3/22/2012 9:02:38 PM