Not all of our intelligence was illegitimate. No one denies that saddam had them. If you deny that, go back to moveon.org to find more talking points.

5/4/2005 3:46:25 PM

Quote :

"No one denies that saddam had them."

of course he had them....like 10 years ago.

you dont go to war over something 10 years old.

5/4/2005 3:48:34 PM

If saddam didn't have them, all he had to do was let the inspectors in. He wouldn't do it. That should be telling.

5/4/2005 3:50:05 PM

And it's easy to hide shit when we were saying for 3 months that we were going to invade.

5/4/2005 3:50:32 PM

are you that dense? do you really think that hussein was a rational man who made rational decisions.

5/4/2005 3:52:20 PM

You're making my point for me! He was completely irrational and the chance of him passing technology to the terrorists was that much greater!

Are you that dense?

5/4/2005 3:53:03 PM

::sigh::

ill just let you keep on thinking that. im really shocked that people still think that way. on well.

5/4/2005 3:54:11 PM

::sigh:: you have nothing left to say.

5/4/2005 3:54:41 PM

Who else loves parrots? I LOVE PARROTS!

5/4/2005 3:55:32 PM

The biggest selling point for me was the fact that he kept weapons inspectors from poking around.

And if you try to impeach Bush for using bad intelligence, I want to see Clinton tried for war crimes based on his bombing of "chemical weapons factories" the night before he was impeached - this was based on the same intelligence that Bush looked at.

5/4/2005 3:55:33 PM

I think it's important enough to have President Bush testify under oath in order to find out the truth.

5/4/2005 3:55:42 PM

That would require charging him with a crime. I don't think the information warrants that yet.

5/4/2005 3:57:50 PM

okay okay, so we can put Clinton under Oath for getting some head in the Oval Office. But we cannot put Bush under Oath for his explanation of going to war?

no see i dont think Bush is that smart to create a conspiracy. he's more like a count dooku/pawn here. no brains all pizzaz. i think a real investigation is warranted to see who got this rolling and why. if anything find out wtf was going on in there during the years leading up to this. yes, it was years.

5/4/2005 4:01:15 PM

Quote :

"If saddam didn't have them, all he had to do was let the inspectors in. He wouldn't do it. That should be telling."

if our military isn't purposely torturing people, all we have to do is join the internationa court. they wouldn't do it. that should be telling.

you see? that kind of logic is exactly why it's so easy to dupe you people.

^agreed.

Quote :

"And if you try to impeach Bush for using bad intelligence, I want to see Clinton tried for war crimes based on his bombing of "chemical weapons factories" the night before he was impeached - this was based on the same intelligence that Bush looked at."

good. I wish someone would hold our leaders responsible, regardless of their political affilitations or amount of power. every president in american history deserves to be tried for something or other.

bush sr. for grenada
pretty much every one of them in the last 50 years or so for what we do to columbian coaca farmers

[Edited on May 4, 2005 at 4:03 PM. Reason : .]

5/4/2005 4:02:02 PM

this is an absolute joke.....Bush will never be impeached for this....its nothing but a vendetta that liberals have against Bush because your beloved Clinton was impeached....this will die out in the VERY near future

5/4/2005 4:02:48 PM

We're not joining the international court because the administration says that there will be no circumstances where american GIs are tried before an international court.

I agree, and applaud.

Your logic is so flawed in your attempt to "dupe" me.

But try again, I find it humorous.

5/4/2005 4:04:35 PM

^^ um, i'm one particular broken link in your idea there, because i think clinton should have been impeached, and I also think that bush should be impeached.

so, you're wrong.

Quote :

"We're not joining the international court because the administration says that there will be no circumstances where american GIs are tried before an international court."

saddam: "we're not letting the inspectors in because there will be no circumstances where we let people from outside the country look into our own secrets."

and i didn't say that I was duping you, i'm saying you were duped by them. and you were.

[Edited on May 4, 2005 at 4:06 PM. Reason : .]

5/4/2005 4:04:42 PM

I think that Bush is a pretty dense guy who had his eyes on Iraq since he was elected, since a lot of people faulted his father for not removing Hussein from power in '91. The war on terror just gave him an easier way to sell it to the American people.

Can we please not use Star Wars analogies?

5/4/2005 4:04:55 PM

You liberals walk around like there's a conspiracy everywhere. That reefer sure has gotten to you, which is surprising since none of you inhale.

5/4/2005 4:06:06 PM

^^^ That's what happens WHEN YOU SIGN TREATIES AGREEING TO THINGS WHEN YOU LOSE A WAR

Let's not forget that.

5/4/2005 4:06:50 PM

^^ do you realize how completely stupid that sort of comment makes you look?

a.) there are MANY people against the war who aren't "liberals," such as myself.
b.) there are many people who don't smoke "reefer" who are against the war.

I know you know both of those things, and that's why you look like an idiot when you make ad hominem attacks.

Quote :

"That's what happens WHEN YOU SIGN TREATIES AGREEING TO THINGS WHEN YOU LOSE A WAR Let's not forget that."

we've signed nuclear non proliferation treaties, but we're still making nukes

[Edited on May 4, 2005 at 4:07 PM. Reason : .]

5/4/2005 4:07:12 PM

1) not a liberal
2) never smoked weed
3) wish I did use ad hominem on you

5/4/2005 4:07:13 PM

Quote :

"Your logic is so flawed in your attempt to "dupe" me. "

OH THE IRONY

Quote :

"You liberals walk around like there's a conspiracy everywhere. That reefer sure has gotten to you, which is surprising since none of you inhale."

haha, well, there goes this guys chance at ever being taken seriously again.

[Edited on May 4, 2005 at 4:08 PM. Reason : f]

5/4/2005 4:07:39 PM

^ *applause*

he had a chance before?

[Edited on May 4, 2005 at 4:09 PM. Reason : .]

5/4/2005 4:08:06 PM

The phrase I'm looking for to describe parts of this thread is "Logical Fallacies" right?

5/4/2005 4:09:24 PM

i believe that, among many others, would be appropriate.

5/4/2005 4:10:01 PM

Quote :

" Who else loves parrots? I LOVE PARROTS!"

^^ Being one of those.

[Edited on May 4, 2005 at 4:10 PM. Reason : two carats]

5/4/2005 4:10:16 PM

abonorio that picture was directed solely at you.

And calling me a parrot just because I don't agree with you is a moronic thing to do.

Your argument is flawed.

[Edited on May 4, 2005 at 4:12 PM. Reason : ]

5/4/2005 4:11:07 PM

um, posting a picture of a parrot isn't a logical fallacy

http://www.dictionary.com
http://www.uta.edu/philosophy/faculty/burgess-jackson/argue.htm

[Edited on May 4, 2005 at 4:12 PM. Reason : m]

5/4/2005 4:11:46 PM

Thanks, but I like tucans.

5/4/2005 4:12:03 PM

http://www.uta.edu/philosophy/faculty/burgess-jackson/argue.htm

5/4/2005 4:13:54 PM

Shouldn't a special prosecutor be appointed in order to investigate? I don't want this shadow of doubt hanging over our beloved President.

5/4/2005 4:16:45 PM

What is the process for getting a special prosecutor? Is that something that is voted on in the house or senate?

5/4/2005 4:17:34 PM

you're right.

just like not joining the criminal court, if he has nothing to hide, he should welcome the prosecutor.

after all, clinton was investigated even though what he did wasn't illegal until he lied to congress, but he was investigated.

5/4/2005 4:18:24 PM

The American people have a right to know the truth.

Our brothers and sisters, sons and daughters are the ones dying in Iraq.

Our tax dollars financed the war and is still funding the security of Iraq.

Don't we deserve to find out whether or not the leader of our country lied to Congress and the American people?

[Edited on May 4, 2005 at 4:29 PM. Reason : grammer]

5/4/2005 4:29:31 PM

Don't you think that if there were legitimate claims, then the dems would've jumped all over it by now? I think the fringe really believes that the President lied to go to war.

5/4/2005 4:31:28 PM

Careful pryderi, you're starting to sound preachy like Earthdogg. :p

But yeah, I'd like to know if he legitimately knew ahead of time that his intelligence was flawed, or if he really didn't know.

5/4/2005 4:32:17 PM

Quote :

"Bush's statements, in chronological order, were: "Right now, Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological weapons." United Nations address, September 12, 2002 "Iraq has stockpiled biological and chemical weapons, and is rebuilding the facilities used to make more of those weapons." "We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons -- the very weapons the dictator tells us he does not have." Radio address, October 5, 2002 "The Iraqi regime . . . possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons." "We know that the regime has produced thousands of tons of chemical agents, including mustard gas, sarin nerve gas, VX nerve gas." "We've also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical or biological weapons across broad areas. We're concerned that Iraq is exploring ways of using these UAVS for missions targeting the United States." "The evidence indicates that Iraq is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program. Saddam Hussein has held numerous meetings with Iraqi nuclear scientists, a group he calls his "nuclear mujahideen" -- his nuclear holy warriors. Satellite photographs reveal that Iraq is rebuilding facilities at sites that have been part of its nuclear program in the past. Iraq has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes and other equipment needed for gas centrifuges, which are used to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons." Cincinnati, Ohio speech, October 7, 2002 "Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent." State of the Union Address, January 28, 2003 "Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised." Address to the nation, March 17, 2003 "

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/06/06/findlaw.analysis.dean.wmd/

Quote :

"His inspection team made 700 inspections at 500 sites in Iraq before the invasion, but he said their reports were largely ignored by the United States and Britain, who remained skeptical of Iraq's claims it had destroyed its arsenal of chemical, biological weapons and had dismantled its nascent nuclear weapons program. Those nations, he said, launched the war under the pretext of disciplining a defiant Saddam Hussein who they said surely possessed weapons of mass destruction, a claim that several independent reports have since concluded was false. He said the Bush administration relied on a "faith-based intelligence." "The war was unleashed despite the lack of any armed attack by Iraq and in the face of a highly questionable and certainly not imminent threat," he said. "In terms of lives and suffering, property and money the war was a very costly way of concluding that there were no WMDs.""

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/ny-liblix044244519may04,0,7453934.story?coll=ny-linews-headlines

No WMDs were found and they weren't moved to Syria. Was intelligence constructed only to get us into a war? I think an investigation should be started in order to clear the administration of any wrong doing.

5/4/2005 4:39:24 PM

pryderi

Quote :

"^Lying to Congress is an impeachable offense."

Everyone should learn that ANYTHING that can muster support of the majority of congress is an impeachable offense. Impeachment is a political process, not a judicial one. There are no "impeachable offenses".

5/4/2005 5:50:49 PM

Quote :

"Manipulation or deliberate misuse of national security intelligence data, if proven, could be "a high crime" under the Constitution's impeachment clause. It would also be a violation of federal criminal law, including the broad federal anti-conspiracy statute, which renders it a felony "to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof in any manner or for any purpose." "

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/06/06/findlaw.analysis.dean.wmd/

5/4/2005 6:33:32 PM

^ please to show me the definition of high crime in the Constitution.

while you're looking for that, here's some food for thought--The first President to ever be impeached was Andrew Johnson for firing a member of his cabinet.

5/4/2005 8:54:56 PM

Jefferson's supporters had a supreme court justice impeached because his opinions were hurtful to the welfare of the nation, in other words they disagreed with him.

5/4/2005 10:37:09 PM

Quote :

"And don't try to claim that Syria took the weapons either. Because the government just said there is no evidence for that."

Is this the same government who said that there were weapons in Iraq in the first place?

Look either you believe what they say, or you don't believe what they say.

5/4/2005 11:30:24 PM

Quote :

"The Presidential Oath of Office The oath to be taken by the president on first entering office is specified in Article II, Section 1, of the Constitution: I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States. "

["So help me God", is a violation of the Establishment Clause]

Article I Section 8 Clause 11 states that only Congress can declare war on another nation. Congress did not make a formal Declaration of War on Iraq.

The 14th Amendment Section 4 states:

Quote :

"The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. "

Quote :

""There is no trust fund -- just IOUs that I saw firsthand. Imagine, the retirement security for future generations is sitting in a filing cabinet.""

--President George W. Bush

Regarding the war in Iraq, shouldn't Bush have to answer a few simple questions, under oath?

Quote :

"1) Do you or anyone in your Administration dispute the accuracy of the leaked document? 2) Were arrangements being made, including the recruitment of allies, before you sought Congressional authorization go to war? Did you or anyone in your Administration obtain Britain's commitment to invade prior to this time? 3) Was there an effort to create an ultimatum about weapons inspectors in order to help with the justification for the war as the minutes indicate? 4) At what point in time did you and Prime Minister Blair first agree it was necessary to invade Iraq? 5) Was there a coordinated effort with the U.S. intelligence community and/or British officials to "fix" the intelligence and facts around the policy as the leaked document states?"

5/5/2005 12:08:41 AM

Quote :

"I think that Bush is a pretty dense guy who had his eyes on Iraq since he was elected, since a lot of people faulted his father for not removing Hussein from power in '91. The war on terror just gave him an easier way to sell it to the American people."

Mr. Joshua, I don't really agree with you much, but I do on that.

Quote :

"If we go after Saddam Hussein, we lose our rightful place as the good guy"

--Dick Cheney

Quote :

"To an old leader will be born an idiot heir, Weak both in knowledge and in war"

[Edited on May 5, 2005 at 12:19 AM. Reason : Nostradamus]

5/5/2005 12:16:53 AM

Anyone remember what that whole "Desert Fox" campaign was about in 1998 or so?

5/5/2005 5:55:55 AM

you mean when clinton attacked iraq? yeah, I remember that, and I wasn't happy with it either.

of course, I was 17 then, and only knew I was scared because we were in some sort of conflict.

i now know it was as illegitimate as any other conflict we've been involved in over there.

when will you guys realize that just saying "clinton did it!" isn't going to make someone think it's ok? I despise clinton almost as much as I despise bush, except that i agreed with him more on social policy... I guess.

plus, you'll note that someone already tried to invoke clinton's iraq conflicts.

[Edited on May 5, 2005 at 7:09 AM. Reason : .]

5/5/2005 7:08:59 AM

do you dislike hillary as well? she was pretty annoying with that village crap.

5/5/2005 7:10:40 AM

i LOATHE hillary

mind you, i'm saying i dislike these people as politicians. as people, some of them aren't so aweful. hell, even george isn't a horrible person. i'm sure in person he'd be cool to do some lines with

5/5/2005 8:38:39 AM

Quote :

"this is an absolute joke.....Bush will never be impeached for this....its nothing but a vendetta that liberals have against Bush because your beloved Clinton was impeached....this will die out in the VERY near future"

Well then, Bush should not have a problem giving testimony, under oath, to answer some questions.

5/5/2005 9:55:28 AM