Quote :

"Ok, so you are saying Chile engaged in widespread liberalization of its citizens and then, shortly thereafter, a large portion of them starved to death?"

More or less, but don't take my word for it.

Quote :

"If I remember correctly, nearly everyone that died during Pinochet died because of a bullet to the back of the head or being dropped out of a helicopter"

Those were just the communists, and they were probably killed by nixon reather than pinochet, the ones I'm talking about is the starving poor and homeless that were created as the wealth gap skyrocketed, or the ones who died of disease after the national healthcare system was privatized.

Their venture into capitalism drove them nose-down into debt. It RUINED their economy. Read about it, it was an almost labrotorish experiement Friedman ironically called the "Miracle of Chile".

Quote :

"there is a far cry between losing your job because of an economic downturn and dying of starvation"

Yes there is, and capitalism in Chile easily jumped that gap to starvation.

10/21/2005 8:42:42 PM

Plz 2 research how Pinochet came to power.

10/21/2005 8:44:20 PM

Violent US supported regime topple of the democratically elected communist president.

10/21/2005 8:46:51 PM

Yes.

10/21/2005 8:48:23 PM

Now that is a fun fact, but what the classicals really try to hide under the rug was the economic experiement that followed. What was supposed to be an example of how great hands free capitalism works turned into undeniable proof of it's failure.

10/21/2005 8:56:25 PM

Well with regards to Latin America amd American support there never really was "free Capitalism." US business favored exporting of raw materials from Latin America to processing in the United States and resisted (and by extension pressured the US Government to also resist) any local attempts at a fair and balanced redistribution of territory and resources as well as unionization and organization of local workers.

10/21/2005 9:00:28 PM

This isn't as much about all of latin america, but specifically chile. Chile was a wonderful example of the huge flaws in capitalism.

10/21/2005 9:11:04 PM

Chilean failures root in grander LA issues.

10/21/2005 9:48:42 PM

I love this thread, Kris is acting like the second richest country in latin america is some disastrous economic shit hole, while his precious little Cuba has a GDP per capita that is less than a 1/3 of theirs.

10/21/2005 10:43:48 PM

The experiment isn't happening right now. It eventually got fixed back after they began to nationalize things agian and completely scrap the friedman ideas. The chile experiement failed miserably.

Most of cuba's problems extend from their lack of international trade, you can't really blame that on them now can you?

10/22/2005 11:57:36 AM

The democratically elected governments have continued most of the economic reforms, including privatization, that was started under Pinochet. They have private social security, one of the world's freest trading policies with the universal tariff, and a very tight monetary policy to name a few.

And btw here is the Chilean governments view of the economy from their APEC website:

Quote :

"The Chilean economy has gone through a sweeping transformation over the last quarter century, driven by the government’s unwavering commitment to market liberalization, transparency, and fiscal accountability. Openness to trade and investment and institutional stability have further buttressed a widely lauded economic model."

http://www.apec2004.cl/index.asp?CatID=11&idioma=ing

Yep they sure make it sound like market liberalization was some kind of total failure, that they had to come in and correct .

Quote :

"Most of cuba's problems extend from their lack of international trade, you can't really blame that on them now can you?"

This is such bullshit, only one major nation doesnt trade with Cuba and that is the U.S. And even considering that, they are able to trade with two countries in our free trade zone. The sanctions proabably hurt us more than it hurts them.

Besides Castro was never in good relations with us but for some reason that didnt stop Che from predicting that Cuba would exceed the United States GDP per capita by 1980, a prediction that turned out quite wonderfully.

[Edited on October 22, 2005 at 1:00 PM. Reason : ]

10/22/2005 12:59:48 PM

Quote :

"And btw here is the Chilean governments view of the economy from their APEC website:"

Wow the chilean government doesn't talk about their own mistakes? I am really surprised.

Why don't you actually cite an article that actually involved some sort of study of their privatization? Keep in mind that if you don't, I will.

Quote :

"This is such bullshit, only one major nation doesnt trade with Cuba and that is the U.S."

Let me ask you, which country buys most of the latin american exports? Hell, which country buys most of THE WORLD's exports?

An american embargo would cripple ANY nation economically.

Quote :

"Besides Castro was never in good relations with us"

He's gotten along with carter fairly well, probably because carter was about the only president since the missle crisis that wasn't a huge douchebag to him. The man is very fair, and far surpasses GWB in foriegn relations skill. If we were willing to relation to him we might have SOME kind of relations with him.

10/22/2005 1:37:42 PM

Quote :

"Most of cuba's problems extend from their lack of international trade, you can't really blame that on them now can you?"

Yes I can. How many nations currently refuse to trade with Cuba? The United States and who?

Quote :

"Cuba currently trades with almost every nation in the world, albeit with restrictions from the U.S. embargo. Trade with the United States is restricted to cash-only transactions for food and medicine. Any company that deals with Cuba risks problems dealing with the United States, so internationally operating companies may be forced to choose between Cuba and the United States, which is a far larger market. This extraterritorial U.S. legislation is considered highly controversial, and the U.S. embargo was condemned for the 13th time in 2004 by the General Assembly of the United Nations, by 179 countries (out of 183 voting). The main current trading partners of Cuba are: Venezuela, China, Spain, Canada and, the Netherlands."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba#Economy

That said, there is nothing that would prevent companies from engaging in trade exclusively with Cuba, if in fact trade with Cuba was profitable. Trade does not seem to be Cuba's largest problem since many companies specialize anyway. So, try again, why does Cuba ever have any economic problems if communism just always works better?

10/22/2005 2:01:24 PM

Quote :

"Wow the chilean government doesn't talk about their own mistakes? I am really surprised. Why don't you actually cite an article that actually involved some sort of study of their privatization? Keep in mind that if you don't, I will."

Are you telling me that a democratically elected government would not talk about the mistakes of a man they just convicted for crimes against humanity? And that in addition to that, had they corrected through socialization as you claim they would not take credit for it?

And yes Ive read plenty dealing with the situation. Most of the criticisms involve a wealth of statistics from a single year, 1983, and ignore the long term trends. Their reforms were not perfect in every aspect and they did allow too much monopolization to occur, but the long term trend of Chilean market liberalization and economic growth has been overwhelmingly positive.

10/22/2005 2:21:50 PM

Quote :

"Let me ask you, which country buys most of the latin american exports? Hell, which country buys most of THE WORLD's exports?"

Why isn't it Cuba if the communist system is just so darned efficient?
Besides, Cuba isn't exactly a tiny country. Given their size and ability to trade freely with most countries, including Europe, they should have the highest standard of living of any South American country. They have had the longest period without a political collapse, so whatever problems they have must be economic in nature.

BTW, your evidence demonstrates that multinational corporations will shy away from Cuba. What is there to prevent Cuba from starting its own multinationals controlled by Castro? Communism just works better, right?

10/22/2005 4:32:06 PM

Quote :

"How many nations currently refuse to trade with Cuba?"

The single biggest importer on the planet. If ANY nation was embargoed by the US it would be crippling for their economy.

Quote :

"So, try again, why does Cuba ever have any economic problems if communism just always works better?"

Trade.

Quote :

"Are you telling me that a democratically elected government would not talk about the mistakes of a man they just convicted for crimes against humanity?"

Yep. Our's does it all the time.

Quote :

"And yes Ive read plenty dealing with the situation."

Care to share?

Quote :

"but the long term trend of Chilean market liberalization and economic growth has been overwhelmingly positive."

The long term trends were due to other changes.

Quote :

"Why isn't it Cuba if the communist system is just so darned efficient?"

Because they are small.

Quote :

"Besides, Cuba isn't exactly a tiny country."

Do I need to show you a map?

Quote :

"Given their size and ability to trade freely with most countries, including Europe, they should have the highest standard of living of any South American country."

ANY COUNTRY THAT SUFFERED EMBARGO OF THE US WOULD SUFFER ECONOMICALLY.

Additionally cuba has a 100% literacy rate and a fairly good standard of living.

10/22/2005 8:26:31 PM

Then what are you complaining about? The standard of living in Cuba is as good as it would be if the US didn't exist.

But at least you admit America must be doing something right. We aren't the largest country, we aren't the most populous, but being cut off from our free markets is devastating.

10/23/2005 8:34:50 AM

Quote :

"The standard of living in Cuba is as good as it would be if the US didn't exist."

So competition on goods doesn't drive the price down? This is news to me.

Quote :

"But at least you admit America must be doing something right. We aren't the largest country, we aren't the most populous, but being cut off from our free markets is devastating."

We have several advantages that put us here that have nothing to do with the free market. First is our abundance of resources. Second is the ingenuity of our citizens (and don't try to tribute this to the free market, most developments are made in the public sector, not the private). The third is our government.

10/23/2005 12:47:06 PM

http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/w-sa/2006/jan/05/010508277.html

Quote :

"January 05, 2006 Hugo Chavez Accused of Anti-Semitism By CHRISTOPHER TOOTHAKER ASSOCIATED PRESS CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) - A Jewish rights group accused Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez of making anti-Semitic comments in a Christmas Eve speech. The Los Angeles-based Simon Wiesenthal Center demanded an apology Wednesday from Chavez saying such remarks have long been used to persecute Jews. "The world has enough for all, but it turned out that some minorities, descendants of those who crucified Christ, descendants of those who threw Bolivar out of here and also crucified him in their own way in Santa Marta, there in Colombia. A minority took the world's riches for themselves," Chavez said, according to a transcript of the Dec. 24 speech. Simon Bolivar led the 19th century fight to liberate Venezuela and some other Latin nations from Spanish rule. Chavez did not did specifically mention the Jewish people in the televised speech. A spokeswoman for his office said it had no immediate response to the complaint. "In your words, the two central arguments of anti-Semitism emerge ... the accusation that Jews killed Jesus (and) associating them with wealth," the Center said in a letter to Chavez. "Our center strongly condemns your anti-Semitic declarations." Another Jewish leader, U.S. Rabbi Arthur Waskow, said in an e-mail he has serious doubts it was an anti-Semitic slur. "I know of no one who accuses the Jews of fighting against Bolivar," wrote Waskow, of The Shalom Center in Philadelphia. "And certainly I - and most Jews - teach that it was the Roman Empire, and Roman soldiers, who crucified Jesus." Chavez's comments came in a part of the speech about the world's poor. Chavez, a fiery speaker, has called President Bush a "madman" and also used a derogatory term for "jerk" in referring to him. Chavez has also criticized Mexican President Vicente Fox. "

NOT THE "A-S" WORD! The sin of all sins. Not kissing j00 ass!

If you speak of the j00z with anything but love and a boot-licking/but-kissing attitude, you're guilty of "anti-Semitism". It doesn't even matter if you're telling the truth about them.

Being called "anti-Semitic" doesn't mean you "hate the j00z" and "want to put them in gas chambers" or anything like that. It means the j00z hate you.

[Edited on January 6, 2006 at 12:46 PM. Reason : `]

1/6/2006 12:43:47 PM

Quote :

"Being called "anti-Semitic" doesn't mean you "hate the j00z" and "want to put them in gas chambers" or anything like that. It means the j00z hate you."

AHAHAHAHAHAHA

you poor thing! the jews are out to get you!

1/6/2006 12:50:58 PM

Quote :

"He's the president, he can do whatever the hell he wants."

i'll be sure to remember

1/6/2006 6:57:22 PM

I can't believe I missed this!

I said: "The standard of living in Cuba is as good as it would be if the US didn't exist."

Kris said: "So competition on goods doesn't drive the price down? This is news to me."

I should have said: "Not if there is only one competitor, a state enterprise, kind of like you are always expousing." Zing!

1/6/2006 8:18:18 PM