but for what it's worth, i would still be for the death penalty even besides that just because it's what some people have coming to them

but like i said, only in the worst cases.



but in a roundabout way, you can take some comfort in that, because strictly from a pragmatic standpoint a la GrumpyGOP, i'd be more trigger happy in dishing it out.

due to my other criterion (which stems from the "what they have coming to them" line of reasoning) of "am i so confident in the guilt and extreme depravity of this individual that i would be unphased by looking him in the eye and pulling the switch?", i'm more moderate in when I think the death penalty should be applied.

[Edited on December 3, 2005 at 10:58 PM. Reason : haha, anticipated that question]

12/3/2005 10:57:49 PM

12/4/2005 12:23:59 AM

The American "justice" system sucks quite frankly and shouldn't be trusted with anyone's life (even if his name does rhyme with pookie)

12/4/2005 12:35:45 AM

I think every person posting in this thread should give me $50.

In other news, Chevrolet is undoubtedly better than Ford.

12/4/2005 3:12:08 AM

Quote :

"if it's not obvious to you that i am advocating the sanctity of human life, then i guess i haven't made myself clear enough."

I've got $50 that says that Captain Sanctity of Life here supports both the right to abortion and euthanasia.

Quote :

"grumps, if one could completely prevent a murderer from getting out into society again, would you still prefer the death penalty over life imprisonment?"

I will admit that some part of me gets a certain amount of satisfaction from seeing some particularly bad characters die, but not enough to overwhelm my inability to logically justify needless executions.

12/4/2005 12:28:32 PM

The arguments over the death penalty in this thread are pretty asinine in general, because nobody is going to change the death penalty statutes in any way over this man's death. With the exception of Tookie himself, not too many people actually believe he's innocent. Even if he were innocent, he's still the progenitor of the Crips.

The operative question is what the role of clemency is in administering the death penalty. At least in recent years, it has been primarily about correcting errors in the court system.

But in Tookie's case, the question is whether his value to society as a credible spokesman against gang violence outweighs the value to society of killing him. That's not a question of legal process, but of moral judgement and statesmanship.

Without a doubt clemency is undeserved mercy; nothing Tookie has done can redeem him legally from the death penalty. No executive reviewing his case should believe clemency to be "salvation by good works." The question of keeping him alive should be about his value as a spokesman.

Personally I think he should suffer the death penalty, at long last. Whereas gang violence is society's problem, Tookie's murders are singularly his. He can solve the problem of his own moral lapses by dying; one would be very optimistic to believe one man in prison can put a significant dent in the problems of gang violence as a whole.

12/4/2005 1:59:29 PM

GrumpyGOP's reasons for supporting the death penalty are immoral and unchristian.

anyway, I only want one for death sentence to be carried out then once that one is done abolish it.


kill mumia

Quote :

"He can solve the problem of his own moral lapses by dying; one would be very optimistic to believe one man in prison can put a significant dent in the problems of gang violence as a whole. "

It's called blood-atonement and the mormons already tried it. In fact the fundamentalist mormons under Warren Jeffs is reinstituting it.

[Edited on December 4, 2005 at 2:33 PM. Reason : .]

12/4/2005 2:30:31 PM

Quote :

"Statistics For Executions Since 1976 Black 320 (34%) Hispanic 60 (6. 3%) White 547 (57. 5%) Other 22 (2. 3%) Just pointing out that it ain't got shit to do with race "

Actually it kind of does since only 12.9% of americans are "black and 81.7% are "white". Yeh and hispanic isn't technically a race. Hispanics can belong to any race

[Edited on December 4, 2005 at 2:37 PM. Reason : fff]

12/4/2005 2:35:39 PM

I wonder, how does it compare to the racial composition of those committing capital offenses?

Time to go ask google...

Homicide Type by Race, 1976-2002 

				Victims    			Offenders 
 			White	Black	Other	   	White	Black	Other 
All homicides		51.1%	46.8%	2.1%		45.9%	52.1%	2.0% 
 
Victim/offender relationship
Intimate 		56.2% 	41.7% 	2.2%   		54.0% 	43.9% 	2.1% 
Family			60.2% 	37.4% 	2.3%   		58.8% 	38.9% 	2.2% 
Infanticide 		55.6% 	41.9% 	2.5%   		55.0% 	42.5% 	2.5% 
Eldercide 		68.9% 	29.6% 	1.5%   		53.9% 	44.6% 	1.6% 
 
Circumstances
Felony murder	 	55.0% 	42.4% 	2.5%   		39.2% 	59.2% 	1.6% 
Sex related 		67.1% 	30.5% 	2.4%   		55.2% 	42.9% 	1.9% 
Drug related 		37.0% 	62.1% 	0.9%   		33.5% 	65.5% 	1.1% 
Gang related 		57.9% 	38.7% 	3.4%   		54.3% 	41.5% 	4.2% 
Argument 		48.3% 	49.7% 	2.0%   		46.5% 	51.4% 	2.1% 
Workplace 		85.2% 	11.6% 	3.2%   		69.7% 	27.3% 	3.0% 
 
Weapon
Gun homicide 		47.6% 	50.6% 	1.8%   		42.3% 	56.0% 	1.7% 
Arson 			59.3% 	37.8% 	2.9%   		55.5% 	42.3% 	2.2% 
Poison 			80.6% 	17.1% 	2.4%   		78.8% 	19.3% 	1.9% 
 
Multiple victims or offenders
Multiple victims 	64.1% 	32.5% 	3.3%   		56.6% 	40.1% 	3.3% 
Multiple offenders	55.3% 	42.0% 	2.7%   		45.0% 	52.6% 	2.3% 

12/4/2005 3:14:18 PM

it's true, the right of self-control is higher than the sanctity of life, i guess.

nice ad hominem, though.

[Edited on December 4, 2005 at 5:13 PM. Reason : f]

12/4/2005 5:10:49 PM

Who is this Mumia guy that liberals love so much?

12/4/2005 6:45:27 PM

death penalty is NOT racist, and tookie williams should fuckin fry like chicken at a black church on sunday afternoon.

12/4/2005 6:48:59 PM

Quote :

"GrumpyGOP's reasons for supporting the death penalty are immoral and unchristian."

I don't recall anything in the New Testament instructing us in how to run governments. Probably because no such passage exists.

My religion tells me that I should try to save lives, and that's what I aim to do.

12/4/2005 7:00:59 PM

NINE MORE DAYS WOO WOOOO

12/4/2005 7:20:55 PM

i save lifes by commiting genocide.

whooooooooopies.

12/4/2005 7:22:36 PM

Quote :

"Blacks commit 59.2% of felony murders, but make up only 34% of those executed. Whites commit 39.2% of felony murders, but make up 57.5% of those executed."

What does felony murder have to do with anything? Besides "arguement" thats probably the least offensive category.

[Edited on December 4, 2005 at 7:36 PM. Reason : ]

12/4/2005 7:26:02 PM

THE DEATH TRAIN IS A-CHUGGIN WOO WOOOOO!!!

12/4/2005 7:26:32 PM

i wish i could administer the injection / throw the switch myself

12/4/2005 7:58:31 PM

^^^Offhand, I thought that felony murder would be the worst. But apparently felony murder isn't quite what I thought it was.

Doesn't really matter though. Looking at homicides and executions by race, it certainly seems as if whites are over-represented and blacks under-represented when it comes to taking turns in the chair.

[Edited on December 4, 2005 at 8:30 PM. Reason : ]

12/4/2005 8:30:37 PM

Quote :

"i save lifes by commiting genocide."

I don't really see anyone advocating genocide of any kind for any reason. Plz to explain.

12/4/2005 11:20:32 PM

so its ok to kill some people to save some people.

so with that logic it must be ok to kill alot of people to save alot of people.

12/5/2005 12:03:23 AM

Celebrate death!

12/5/2005 12:04:43 AM

God told me its ok to kill people if its for a good cause.

12/5/2005 12:08:54 AM

you people dont get it at all.

noone answerd my question about mumia.

12/5/2005 12:24:31 AM

http://www.google.com

[Edited on December 5, 2005 at 1:03 AM. Reason : The Internet: It's more than just Savage Nation!]

12/5/2005 1:02:44 AM

Quote :

"so with that logic it must be ok to kill alot of people to save alot of people."

The the particulars are lined up, yes, it is.

12/5/2005 3:06:15 AM

^

I'm not a Christian or theist at all so perhaps that is where the fundamental break is but "saving people" seem to me to be an illusion. Everyone is going to die regardless of what you do.

The question is the quality of life while you are alive. It seems likely that a regieme of life-trading is likely to result in a highly unstable and undesirable society.

For example, if life saving is simply preventing death at an instant. Then we could randomly pick people to be killed and divy up their organs to people whose organs are failing. We lose one but we "save" perhaps six or seven others.

12/5/2005 10:57:58 AM

hmm kill a murdering bastard for the evil shit he's done or let him go off and kill an innocent person

MAN WHAT A TOUGH DECISION

12/5/2005 11:03:55 AM

"or let him go off and kill"

troll

12/5/2005 11:30:58 AM

if he's breathing, there's a chance he's walking off

12/5/2005 11:33:02 AM

Quote :

"Everyone is going to die regardless of what you do."

Christianity has pretty much always distinguished between violent and natural deaths.

12/5/2005 12:24:42 PM

nature hasn't.

[Edited on December 5, 2005 at 12:35 PM. Reason : s]

12/5/2005 12:34:47 PM

Well, if you want to be some nature-worshipping hippie, that's your business.

12/5/2005 1:50:26 PM

http://www.thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=366833

12/5/2005 2:37:57 PM

+

12/10/2005 2:08:21 PM

Quote :

"I just wonder what a person sitting on the death row should do to deserve a pardon that Tookie hasn't done. "

refrain from having killed people.

12/10/2005 4:58:47 PM

so when are they scheduled to strap him down and throw the switches?

12/10/2005 5:05:51 PM

They should televise this.

There'd never be another execution in the USA.

12/10/2005 5:17:14 PM

i don't know about that

but that would be in keeping with my philosophy on the death penalty

12/10/2005 5:21:46 PM

Quote :

"They should televise this. There'd never be another execution in the USA."

He is getting a lethal injection isn't he? It would be a more peaceful death than many will have.

12/10/2005 6:01:45 PM

If I were to be executed, I would want to die by firing squad... I want my last moments to be full of sensory experience. I can't stand the idea of just drifting off to sleep. Electric Chair might be an alternative, but I'm not sure that the person feels very much pain if it is done correctly. Guillotine is definitely out - shock would take away the pain. Hanging is too much pain too quickly and for too short a period of time.

12/10/2005 9:55:25 PM

In the Ninth Circuit, it is legal to hang people.

12/10/2005 11:16:22 PM

I'd like GrumpyGOP to explain how executing a death row inmate will "save lives".

12/11/2005 12:54:50 AM

Sigh...

Read any other death penalty thread I've posted in. Hell, probably just read this thread, I'm sure I at least referenced it here.

The man has already possibly ordered more killings from within prison, and the only way to be sure we stop that is to put him down.

12/11/2005 12:56:21 AM

Here's a Newsweek telephone interview with Tookie. It includes his reason for not denouncing the Crips and why he should either be set free or granted clemency.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10404019/site/newsweek/

12/11/2005 9:18:24 AM

Anyone remember Adam Gell? A good reason to have automatic appeals.

Felony murder is used to deter (while it does not work) criminals from using violence in their crimes. Most states recognize it, including NC. It handles the issue with premediation for 1st degree murder. Actually, Felony Murders are pretty serious. Someone is willing to take a life just to do it. Although one's accomplice can unfairly be tapped with Felony Murder when he did not know the person was armed during the underlying felony.

[Edited on December 11, 2005 at 9:53 AM. Reason : k is evil.]

12/11/2005 9:47:34 AM

ahaha he said:

Quote :

"I’m not guilty. Being black is the paramount [reason]."

yea i'm sure that the fact you founded one of the most violent and deadly street gangs in the world was just overwhelmed by your skin color

on his refusal to cooperate with investigators regarding gang activity:

Quote :

"If I feel that opening my mouth will harm another human being... I can’t do it."

what an asshole. sure the few guys who deserve to get caught, WILL GET CAUGHT - that's not harm, thats justice. and countless others will not be mugged/killed by the bad guys.

i'm going to throw a party when this jerkoff gets executed. I'm technically opposed to the death penalty, but if we're gonna have to have it, I can't think of anyone I'd rather see executed than this guy.

[Edited on December 11, 2005 at 10:06 AM. Reason : s]

12/11/2005 9:52:18 AM

Throwing off a party is stupid. Oh, wait... It's not really an argument against you throwing it off. Please go on with your plans.

But yes, with these comments he ensures he will not get a clemency.

12/11/2005 10:34:37 AM

FOR FUCKING STARTERS, WE SHOULD ALL KEEP IN MIND THAT ANYBODY CAN NOMINATE ANYBODY FOR A NOBEL PEACE PRIZE. THAT AIN'T SHIT.

We must abolish the death penalty. ASAP. Every man on death row should be granted clemency until then. I don't want a moratorium. I want us to stop killing people. For good.

On to Tookie...

The man maintains his innocence and has not renounced his gang membership. Doesn't seem like someone who deserves clemency to me...

Regarding all his work with anti-gang stuff, I don't give a shit. Kids don't know who the fuck Tookie is; they don't take his books more seriously because he's a bad a mother fucker. Any person with gang/violence experience could have written those books.

Regarding his trials that some are insinuating were unfair, GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK. THERE ARE HARD-WORKING, LAW-ABIDING BLACK MEN EVERYWHERE WHO GET SHAFTED BY THE LEGAL SYSTEM. TOOKIE WILLIAMS AIN'T ONE OF THEM. SHAFTED BY SOCIETY? SURE. BUT BY MULTIPLE JURIES OF HIS PEERS? NOPE.

Another interesting thing: Tookie writes in his books how to avoid gangs, their pressure, their terror, etc... And he should know. He wrote the book on gangs (big and effective ones) when he was just a teenager, terrorizing entire communities.

My final word: SAVE TOOKIE. Because he's a human being, not because he's special.

[Edited on December 11, 2005 at 12:14 PM. Reason : sss]

[Edited on December 11, 2005 at 12:15 PM. Reason : sss]

12/11/2005 12:13:32 PM

I would be in favor of sparing Tookie's life as long as everyone else who is on death row gets their sentences commuted.

But if we're not willing to end the death penalty nation-wide before the 13th (which we should), that fucker betta fry or i'll be pissed.

[Edited on December 11, 2005 at 1:12 PM. Reason : s]

12/11/2005 1:12:27 PM