12/22/2005 9:42:59 AM

Quote :

"Scientology says that all psychology is bullshit. All medical whatever is bullshit. The earth is full of ghosts of goddamn aliens who were sent here by a goddamn space monster named Xenu. People believe this. THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE THIS."

Shows you how fucking stupid Tom Cruise is.

Quote :

"He lists some of Scientology's selling points: its drug-abuse, prison-rehabilitation and education programs. "Some people, well, if they don't like Scientology, well, then, fuck you." He rises from the table. "Really." He points an angry finger at the imaginary enemy. "Fuck you." His face reddens. "Period.""

(http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/_/rnd/1092364818611/has-player/true/id/6420217/version/6.0.11.847?rnd=1135266375968&has-player=true&version=6.0.8.1024)

[Edited on December 22, 2005 at 10:54 AM. Reason : rofl]

12/22/2005 10:49:14 AM

Quote :

"user: IntelligentDesign status: banned"

12/22/2005 10:58:46 AM

hahahahaha

12/22/2005 11:10:32 AM

There is much politics behind this whole Evolution Vs ID or Evolution Vs creationism, ever since the inception of the evolutionary theory.

Evolutionary theory shouldn't be publicized in that it is fully pushed for the political agendas, especially for communists, atheists, and freemasons. Look at Karl Marx's 'Das Kapitol'. He praises Darwin on the front pages of the book. Needful to say is that if the curriculum and disciplines in biology and zoology incorporate Darwin's proposed mechanisms for natural selection, then why is his bigotry neglected, in that him stating that natural selection worked against the 'blacks', and therefore they are an inferior race? Evolution hasn't been proved (microevolution can be seen as variations), other than mere subjectivism, manipulating of facts, fraudelent actions by the proponents of it. There are so much fabrications, I don't have the patience to list them all.

Natural Selection, Punctuated Equilibrium, Mutations are mere semantics that are adhered due
to them providing this surface layer of a 'scientific' foundation, but in reality they have never been able to create EMPIRICALLY NEW SPECIES.

The Proponents of intelligent design have their own biases in that they also want to bring people under the folds of Christianity creationism. They have this covert agenda, more evangelical to say the least.

Nonetheless, both evolution and intelligent design fail miserably in the overall scientific method, since both have been implausible to BRING observations of either mechanisms working, evolving, or a creator or agent being the cause of such existences. This crucial step will remain unknown, and therefore both sides need to be kicked out of scientific disciplines.

12/22/2005 12:30:21 PM

This will have little to no affect on normal people, Christian or not.

That being said, carry on.

12/22/2005 12:40:10 PM

Quote :

"Natural Selection, Punctuated Equilibrium, Mutations are mere semantics that are adhered due to them providing this surface layer of a 'scientific' foundation, but in reality they have never been able to create EMPIRICALLY NEW SPECIES."

what the fuck are you talking about?

i spent 6 years studying and researching the functional genomics of mutations. i have my name on patents to atleast 4 "EMPRIRICALLY NEW SPECIES" - as if you even knew what that entailed.

and you're going to come on here and tell me that shit is "semantics"?

you fuckers never cease to make me feel even a little bit ashamed of my alma matter (assuming you actually go/went here)

12/22/2005 12:44:30 PM

Quote :

"what the fuck are you talking about? i spent 6 years studying and researching the functional genomics of mutations. i have my name on patents to atleast 4 "EMPRIRICALLY NEW SPECIES" - as if you even knew what that entailed. and you're going to come on here and tell me that shit is "semantics"? you fuckers never cease to make me feel even a little bit ashamed of my alma matter (assuming you actually go/went here) "

Post it please. Then I will break your material to pieces.

12/22/2005 12:46:44 PM

No you won't. Original claim or not.

Don't half ass your assualts on ID and Evolutionary theory either.

12/22/2005 12:49:10 PM

Why are you making premature assumptions?

Now wait until he posts his 4 patented SPECIES that he is credited for, and what my responses are towards it.

12/22/2005 12:52:28 PM

dude, i seriously don't have any more time for this

12/22/2005 12:54:14 PM

Well if you're going to assume that you'll "break [his] material to pieces" then I'm going to assume, based on your posts that I've read, that you won't.

12/22/2005 12:54:26 PM

Don't chicken out? You came with an objection. Therefore the burden of proof is on you.

If you don't have time, then you can PM me or email me, and this debate can take place more on a professional manner. How about it?

12/22/2005 12:55:42 PM

dude, i'm not going arm wrestle you

12/22/2005 12:57:30 PM

what a militant n00b.

12/22/2005 12:57:43 PM

ssjaminid buddy, this is not about arm wrestling or other sarcasms. Please don't divert the issue.

Seriously, lets discuss this is via email or some other medium of your choice.

I came posting on this discussion board to debate, in a friendly and professional manner, and exchange ideas. It is sad to see others just mock and make use of profanity.

12/22/2005 1:01:14 PM

Quote :

"I came posting on this discussion board to debate, in a friendly and professional manner, and exchange ideas."

Sorry dude, TWW is the wrong discussion board.

12/22/2005 1:03:09 PM

Hurray, a new crazy!

12/22/2005 1:19:36 PM

I invented the internet.
I have my name on 6 new species.
I have a gay dog who speaks french.

12/22/2005 1:27:48 PM

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shit fuck damn motherfucker pussy dick asshole cock dickhead shit fuck damn motherfucker pussy dick asshole cock dickhead shit fuck damn motherfucker pussy dick asshole cock dickhead shit fuck damn motherfucker pussy dick asshole cock dickhead shit fuck damn motherfucker pussy dick asshole cock dickhead shit fuck damn motherfucker pussy dick asshole cock dickhead shit fuck damn motherfucker pussy dick asshole cock dickhead shit fuck damn motherfucker pussy dick asshole cock dickhead shit fuck damn motherfucker pussy dick asshole cock dickhead shit fuck damn motherfucker pussy dick asshole cock dickhead shit fuck damn motherfucker pussy dick asshole cock dickhead shit fuck damn motherfucker pussy dick asshole cock dickhead shit fuck damn motherfucker pussy dick asshole cock dickhead shit fuck damn motherfucker pussy dick asshole cock dickhead shit fuck damn motherfucker pussy dick asshole cock dickhead shit fuck damn motherfucker pussy dick asshole cock dickhead shit fuck damn 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^ you're not special. all gay dogs speak french.

[Edited on December 22, 2005 at 1:50 PM. Reason : *]

12/22/2005 1:49:49 PM

Quote :

"Don't chicken out?"

no but seriously, you're a n00b here.

the last time i had a real debate, i ended up spending way too much time diggin up evidence for steve9194, only to have him disappear and never return.

i honestly don't have time for that.






[Edited on December 22, 2005 at 3:14 PM. Reason : ]

12/22/2005 3:08:58 PM

A creationist trying to put the burden of proof (as if they're themselves capable of proving anything) on someone defending evolution would be kind of like me walking up to someone and saying "The sky isn't blue. Prove it is!"

[Edited on December 22, 2005 at 5:30 PM. Reason : .]

12/22/2005 5:30:29 PM

Ya, evolution is obvious. After all we were all here millions of years ago to witness it. It's a fact.

12/22/2005 5:42:45 PM

im gonna repost joshnumbers post on this page:

Quote :

"Both Defendants and many of the leading proponents of ID make a bedrock assumption which is utterly false. Their presupposition is that evolutionary theory is antithetical to a belief in the existence of a supreme being and to religion in general. Repeatedly in this trial, Plaintiffs' scientific experts testified that the theory of evolution represents good science, is overwhelmingly accepted by the scientific community, and that it in no way conflicts with, nor does it deny, the existence of a divine creator."

-Exerpt from the judges ruling. Couldnt have said it better myself.

/thread.

12/22/2005 5:43:23 PM

Quote :

"no but seriously, you're a n00b here. the last time i had a real debate, i ended up spending way too much time diggin up evidence for steve9194, only to have him disappear and never return. i honestly don't have time for that. "

There is a limit to patience.
Throwing smokescreens to evade issue by stating FOBs or noob doesn't get you anywhere, does it? Son, if you are an American like me, how can someone be one?

If you are up for a debate, then simply debate. Enough of your sapphic irrelevancy. Don't be such a vacillator.

I will be waiting here for you.

12/22/2005 6:27:30 PM

what was the point you were making
im on the phone and kinda bored, i might tell you why its stupid

12/22/2005 6:30:27 PM

Quote :

"Exerpt from the judges ruling. Couldnt have said it better myself."

If those people were truly stupid enough to base their argument on the premise that "evolution precludes the existence of a supernatural entity," then they deserved to get smacked down.

Quote :

"Do people talk about the "religious ramifications" of an appendectomy?"

do teachers teach that psychologists are 100% right about everything they do? nope, they don't. thus your argument is m00t. Oh, and btw, an appendectomy has 100% nothing to do w/ psychiatrists (thats what scientology is against, btw, not psychologists). double pwnt.

Quote :

"The simple fact of the matter is, no matter how you slice it, Intelligent Design is a nonscientific proposition and as such has no business whatsoever being taught as science in any school setting."

damn, am I prophetic or what?

Quote :

"All of the arguments I hear against ID ... fall upon the premise of "ITS NOT SCIENCE!" or "ITS NOT RIGHT!," as in, "its wrong!""

Quote :

"Look at Karl Marx's 'Das Kapitol'. He praises Darwin on the front pages of the book."

Hitler also liked painting. I guess we should banish art class.

Quote :

" in that him stating that natural selection worked against the 'blacks', and therefore they are an inferior race?"

Did he really say that? I was under the impression that he actually said something towards the opposite.

Quote :

"The Proponents of intelligent design have their own biases in that they also want to bring people under the folds of Christianity creationism."

wrong. Some proponents do, especially the most vocal ones.

Quote :

"This crucial step will remain unknown, and therefore both sides need to be kicked out of scientific disciplines."

dude, did you REALLY just fucking say that? The whole fucking point of science is to figure out the "final fucking step" in things that we don't quite understand!

Quote :

"dude, i seriously don't have any more time for this"

translation: "I'm full of shit and somebody called me out "

Quote :

"i ended up spending way too much time diggin up evidence for steve9194, only to have him disappear and never return."

so instead you'll just dissappear from this argument and never return. got it.

Quote :

"A creationist trying to put the burden of proof ... on someone defending evolution"

i don't recall any creationists putting the burden of proof on anyone in this thread. but, thx for spouting bullshit

12/22/2005 6:46:59 PM

apply the scientific method to ID

12/22/2005 6:54:06 PM

ok. right after you apply Christianity to Islam.

12/22/2005 7:25:02 PM

um, right after you compare the hamburgler to beowulf's hrothgar?

12/22/2005 7:48:23 PM

Quote :

"If those people were truly stupid enough to base their argument on the premise that "evolution precludes the existence of a supernatural entity," then they deserved to get smacked down."

You dont get it. IDists and creationists main argument is that the theory of evolution is athiestic in nature.

You cant run from that. 'these people' are the ID 'community'. Your personal beliefs dont mean shit, the ID bullshit movement is based on this fundamental assumption, that evolution contradicts the existence of an intellegent designer, or supernational creator.

As the judge said, no such assertion is made by evolution.



[Edited on December 22, 2005 at 7:53 PM. Reason : - ]

12/22/2005 7:51:56 PM

Quote :

"the ID bullshit movement is based on this fundamental assumption, that evolution contradicts the existence of an intellegent designer, or supernational creator."

ummm, I'm going to need proof of this assertion, because I sure as fuck haven't seen it yet. All of the "reputable" ID sources I've seen have never mentioned such a thing.

12/22/2005 7:55:48 PM

im not sure i understand the point you are making
i thought i was
but now im not

12/22/2005 7:57:01 PM

^^

huh?

Im sorry....youve completely started making no sense.

Intellegent design proponents want it to be presented as an alternative, which means they by definition believe that it must contradict evolution.

12/22/2005 8:05:58 PM

http://www.intelligentdesignnetwork.org/

Quote :

"The theory of intelligent design (ID) holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause rather than an undirected process such as natural selection"

They are claiming that right here. The 'intellegent cause'...lets call it, god, created the universe.

There it is, plain english....its the first damn sentance of huge site's definition. That ID says there is a god creator. And evolution doesnt conflict with that, or the idea of a directed evolutionary process.

No evolutionary biologist ever made the scientific claim that God couldnt have designed natural selection. They couldnt, becuase thats not even a claim that could be made in the realm of science.

/thread.


[Edited on December 22, 2005 at 8:12 PM. Reason : -]

12/22/2005 8:09:57 PM

Quote :

"No evolutionary biologist ever made the scientific claim that God couldnt have designed natural selection. They couldnt, becuase thats not even a claim that could be made in the realm of science. /thread."

nor should be taught in the realm of a classroom devoted to science. they could/do have theology classes...

12/22/2005 9:21:52 PM

Quote :

"You dont get it. IDists and creationists main argument is that the theory of evolution is athiestic in nature."

Huh ? I thought the main argument was that biological life manifests an order, or irreducible complexity, which is indicative of some designer(s). It doesn't say that that designer is God or anything like that, simply that it is more believable that the structure seen in biology arose from logic rather than random mutations.

Quote :

"You cant run from that. 'these people' are the ID 'community'. Your personal beliefs dont mean shit, the ID bullshit movement is based on this fundamental assumption, that evolution contradicts the existence of an intellegent designer, or supernational creator. As the judge said, no such assertion is made by evolution. "

I think ID is more based on the idea that evolutionary biology as it is currently formulated is an
insufficient explaination for the biological life observed here on earth. That is not the same as pure
creationism, it is merely an appeal for skeptism when it comes to origins. Good grief, we can't even say evolution is possibly wrong because of some percieved religious motivation?

Let me try to turn this around. Atheism is for all intents and purposes a religion. It takes the place of religion and as such should rightly be considered a religion. Notice that all atheists believe in evolution. (At least all the atheists I know). Hence, we cannot teach evolution in school. It's part of atheism an by the high exalted princple of seperation of church and state we cannot allow this travesty.

Likewise, we ought not teach ID, because that might favor theistic religions.

Gee, lets not teach anything anymore, it might involve somebody's religion unfairly.

What we really need is separation of school and state. Problem solved.

12/22/2005 9:23:51 PM

Quote :

"Let me try to turn this around. Atheism is for all intents and purposes a religion. It takes the place of religion and as such should rightly be considered a religion. Notice that all atheists believe in evolution. (At least all the atheists I know). Hence, we cannot teach evolution in school. It's part of atheism an by the high exalted princple of seperation of church and state we cannot allow this travesty."

I agree with the idea, but can't really go with you through the syllogism. While I would agree that atheism is subject to being labeled a religion, you can't then inextricably link atheism to evolution, since they're not really linked. Darwin was himself slightly religious even in his natural selection days (seen though the vague language when he's skirting the issue of how the first species actually appeared). Atheists tend to latch onto evolution because it's a theory that could be detached from God. As ID people are showing, though, it can also be attached to God. It just depends on how you want to start the game.

Quote :

"What we really need is separation of school and state. Problem solved."

Agreed. But the problem is, what private education firm will handle it? and what's their underlying ideology? Everybody's got one.

12/22/2005 9:35:58 PM

Quote :

"It doesn't say that that designer is God or anything like that, simply that it is more believable that the structure seen in biology arose from logic rather than random mutations."

God isnt teh designer now? So its....space aliens? Please....thats not science.

Biology came from logic? Where the fuck does evolution claim that life didnt come from a logical god ... or a logical being. Random mutations are a mechanism for speciation, NEVER is 'random' used to describe why we are here by evolutionary theory. Im sorry you dont understand biology.

Quote :

"Notice that all atheists believe in evolution. (At least all the atheists I know). Hence, we cannot teach evolution in school"

You should be caned for actually posting that logic. What athiests and theists think is of no consequence in science class. The only thing we teach in science is the science of the scientific community.



[Edited on December 22, 2005 at 9:46 PM. Reason : -]

12/22/2005 9:40:48 PM

what it really comes down is that if you think ID is explaining the "how," it doesnt stand up to the scientific method and shouldnt be taught in schools
and if you are saying that it explains the "why" then thats not in the scope of the classes

12/22/2005 9:43:32 PM

Quote :

" Quote : "Look at Karl Marx's 'Das Kapitol'. He praises Darwin on the front pages of the book." Hitler also liked painting. I guess we should banish art class. "

Do you actually think people will fall for your obvious folderols?

The late famous evolutionist, the paleontologist Stephen J. Gould said: "Darwin applied a consistent philosophy of materialism to his interpretation of nature". Leon Trotsky, one of the masterminds of the Russian Communist Revolution along with Lenin, commented: "The discovery by Darwin was the highest triumph of the dialectic in the whole field of organic matter." (Source: "Marxism and Darwinism, Reason in Revolt: Marxism and Modern Science" by Alan Woods and Ted Grant).

If there isn't a political agenda behind Evolution, should I show you more on how it destroyed nations in Europe? Now, please save the embarrassment, you are making yourself an ever more saphead and morosoph!

Quote :

"Quote : " in that him stating that natural selection worked against the 'blacks', and therefore they are an inferior race?" Did he really say that? I was under the impression that he actually said something towards the opposite. "

Sure, this is what he stated and let me paraphrase from the Descent of Man, 2nd edition by Charles Darwin[i]. Darwin claimed that the "fight for survival" also applied between human races. "Favoured races" emerged victorious from this struggle. According to Darwin the favoured race were the European whites. As for Asian and African races, they had fallen behind in the fight for survival. Darwin went even further: these races would soon completely lose the world-wide fight for survival and disappear, he claimed.

At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate, and replace, the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes … will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his nearest allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilised state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as now between the negro or Australian and the gorilla.

Quote :

" Quote : "This crucial step will remain unknown, and therefore both sides need to be kicked out of scientific disciplines." dude, did you REALLY just fucking say that? The whole fucking point of science is to figure out the "final fucking step" in things that we don't quite understand! "

It seems with emotions high on the rise, it blurs logic and interpretation. How can you find the final step with holding subjective interpretations based on biases to begin with, and no sheer, lucid evidence being there as an OBSERVATION?


I don't want to embarrass you further. Don't give me that chance.

12/22/2005 10:12:56 PM

you picked some pretty stupid, trivial points to argue about

12/22/2005 10:18:51 PM

OH GREAT

THE BIG GIRL CAME BACK AS SOMEONE WHO THINKS THEY KNOW SCIENCE

12/22/2005 10:25:26 PM

Quote :

"do teachers teach that psychologists are 100% right about everything they do? nope, they don't. thus your argument is m00t. Oh, and btw, an appendectomy has 100% nothing to do w/ psychiatrists (thats what scientology is against, btw, not psychologists). double pwnt."

I hate to break it to you, but scientologists believe that any malady, physical, psychiatric, whatever, is caused by body thetans and shit like that. They think the depression is caused by a ghost. They think the flu is caused by a ghost. They think that fucking AIDS and cancer are caused by a ghost.

What I'm saying is, we don't take the time to mention every crackpot theory that runs contrary to generally accepted thought.

12/22/2005 10:26:28 PM

Quote :

"Agreed. But the problem is, what private education firm will handle it? and what's their underlying ideology? Everybody's got one."

This is my point, everyone has a bias. More than that, to assume that we can really seperate that
bias from education is absurd. At the present it is ok to teach children that life came from evolution in our schools, it seems very unfair to not allow them to be taught that life came from the Creator God. After all this is a free country, I thought we had religious freedom. My opponents will start shouting oh what about creation by Aliens, or scientology, or any other number of creation "myths", why not teach them to? My response is why is it that only the creation myth of the atheist is allowed? You see there is a state religion in this sense, only the materialist's creation myth is allowed. That is unfair to all the other religions (including mine).

I do not demand that only Christianity's creation "myth" be taught in schools. Rather, this being a representive democracy, I would advocate the schools being able to teach whatever they deem correct. Let the parents judge the validity of that locally, if the population is very secular/liberal christian let them teach evolution, if the population is fundamentalist Christian then let them teach literal 6 day creation, if the population is Muslim let them teach whatever the Koran has to say. The point is that we should be free to teach our children whatever. If you don't like that then teach your kid at home. However, as it seems that the courts in this country will not allow us this freedom, I say get rid of the public schools. That way the government will no longer be able to regulate what we teach our children.

Quote :

"You should be caned for actually posting that logic. What athiests and theists think is of no consequence in science class. The only thing we teach in science is the science of the scientific community."

science is science. How compelling. Do you not understand this is the heart of the whole argument?
That there might be a scientific consequence of a theistic belief, or conversely that a scientific belief might have theological implications? To say from the get-go that there is a demarcation between the two is itself philosophy, which you seem to be against (in science classes).

ID, and creationists for that matter, do not deny the sucesses of modern science. But these sucesses, genetics, basic physics and so on... do not require evolution. There really is no debate
over the testable portion of science. It is the historical claims of evolutionary biology that people like me have problems with.

Quote :

"Biology came from logic? Where the fuck does evolution claim that life didnt come from a logical god ... or a logical being. Random mutations are a mechanism for speciation, NEVER is 'random' used to describe why we are here by evolutionary theory. Im sorry you dont understand biology."

Let me be more specific, we believe that "Random mutations are a mechanism for speciation" is an
insufficient mechanism to explain the structures seen in nature. We believe the mechanism itself should involve intelligence.

12/22/2005 10:34:15 PM

Quote :

"We believe the mechanism itself should involve intelligence."

right
but the "why" is outside the scope of biology class

12/22/2005 10:38:34 PM

^^Ok, so I stopped reading here:

Quote :

"only the materialist's creation myth is allowed."

1. stfu
2. gtfo

12/22/2005 10:57:38 PM

Quote :

"It is the historical claims of evolutionary biology that people like me have problems with. "

The historical claims built on museums packed with fossils of transitionary speices, extinct speices a;; with homologous features?

Ill be glad when bird flu mutates and then kills you. You dont believe tamiflu can save your life, becuase avian flu is not currently transmissable from humans to humans. It could never pose a serious threat. Since evolution cant occur, the bird flu cannot change.

Quote :

"Let me be more specific, we believe that "Random mutations are a mechanism for speciation" is an insufficient mechanism to explain the structures seen in nature. We believe the mechanism itself should involve intelligence."

Intellegence? Evolution is a fairly intellegent way to make sure that species adapt to a changing eviroment. No biologist would disagree. Again, this is a non-issue, because there is no conflict.

Is there an intellegent God? Thats what youre asking. The answer is not one science can provide.

Quote :

"Let the parents judge the validity of that locally"

Let a bunch of idiot middle aged common folk decide what is science? Why stop there.....lets do it by democracy.

Lets have a vote for relativity. The universe has no speed limit...theres no your mass changes when you move at different speeds....theres no way that time moves slower relative to those who walk around all day then those who dont.....if i dont understand it, it be pagan bullshit...lets do science by democratic rule. If the masses dont get it, why teach it! bravo sir.

Better yet, before any scientific discovery, lets just run it by every theological institutional and make sure to modify it so as to not offend anyone.



[Edited on December 23, 2005 at 1:02 AM. Reason : -]

12/23/2005 12:55:27 AM

we should also vote for math
i really think 2+2 should equal 5

12/23/2005 1:08:06 AM

Didnt the sun stand still in the sky in the bible?

All those pagan physics teachers and their souless teachings of radical ideas with amazing theistic implications should have to also teach that biblical magic is a competing thoery among christian physics scholars.




[Edited on December 23, 2005 at 1:17 AM. Reason : - ]

12/23/2005 1:15:15 AM