Quote :

"(some of it ) is contained in (all of it)"

wtf does that say

12/23/2005 12:10:38 AM

It looks to be the definition of subset.

12/23/2005 12:15:56 AM

oh ok
i thought it was an additional point

12/23/2005 12:19:02 AM

^^ yeah, it's really a mathematical thing. Crazyweb sadly lacks the equation notation I need.

If I say "I listen to half of Jesus says"
And he says (I'm assuming here, b/c he never really said it): "I believe in everything Jesus says."

Then, later that day,
He says "If Jesus was misquoted, how is he "still mostly right"...since you wouldn't know wtf he actually said?"

I say "Okay, assuming I don't know wtf he actually said, then you (unless you are one of the original disciples) also do not know wtf he actually said. Are you one of the original disciples?"

He says "No."
I say "Okay, so you and I both don't know wtf he actually said. You believe all of it, I believe some of it. If it's all wrong, then you were tricked more."

Then He says "But if I'm right then you're fucked!"
Then I say, "Hey that's not very Christian of you!"

Then we fight. All over religion

[Edited on December 23, 2005 at 12:23 AM. Reason : extra]

12/23/2005 12:19:35 AM

i think what he is saying, guth, is that semantically "some of what Jesus preached" is definitely part of "all of what Jesus preached." Kind of like the numbers 1 and 7 are "some integers" and as such they are part of the set of "all integers." Its confusing terminology, though. He should have just gone with the idea of subsets or Ven diagrams and shit. damn, somebody beat me to it, and more succinctly too

of course, his premise is totally flawed. You can't sensibly follow some of the teachings of Christ while not believing in God. While yes, you can follow some of Jesus' teachings without following all of them, you just can't follow any of his teachings and not believe in Jesus's god, because Jesus's teachings are based fundamentally on his god. If you don't believe in his god but you are doing things which are in accordance to Jesus' teachings, you are really just following the teachings of someone other than Jesus, which just happen to correllate to the teachings of Jesus.

put more simply, Jesus's teachings are not unique to Jesus or Christianity. I'm certain that his teachings existed before he did, so if there is no god or you just don't believe in Jesus's god, then, like I said, you are just following someone else's teachings, and these teachings are just the same things that Jesus taught. you aren't really "following Jesus." you are just doing the same things that Jesus did

12/23/2005 12:24:21 AM

alright, I've got to throw this out at you, ru1dt. you seem to be stuck on this idea of comparing yourself to other people (well, I've done 6 good things, but he did 7; well, I believe this much of the Bible, but he believes that much...). what is that, moral relativism? while such a topic is interesting in its own right as a thought problem, its ultimately useless when talking seriously about religions such as Christianity and Islam. These religions have moral absolutes, which are the antithesis of moral relativism. The two just can't exist together. So really, man, if you are going to contemplate Christianity, then you HAVE to throw out moral relativism, because it just doesn't fit and it never can.

[Edited on December 23, 2005 at 12:29 AM. Reason : and yes, I double posted, because this is different from my previous post... so SUCK ON IT]

12/23/2005 12:28:57 AM

^^yeah, fireworks would'a shortened it a bit. that's the creative writer in me

^No way. I don't presume to tell people where their good deeds are done, or how, or why. People could always do more. Everyone can do more. But in Calvinism, a form of Christianity for a short while, moral relativism was one of the tenets.

yeah, that's kinda the rub, and why I've since wanted to add my line to "Christian's I've seen," a generalization. A bad one, maybe, depending on where you are.

And yes, if I'm doing like Jesus I'm following him, to a point. I'm too skeptical, as I said earlier.

Also, your other post was right, and I'm not disputing the particulars, but I primarily referring to religion of those in power, which is where the managers of the theme park idea came in. I'm a worker.

[Edited on December 23, 2005 at 12:37 AM. Reason : calvinism again]

12/23/2005 12:33:13 AM

Quote :

"God is Love"

God is many things

He is not quarantined into just one noun

12/23/2005 12:36:39 AM

dead is just one noun

12/23/2005 12:38:37 AM

^^the problem is that most people haven't even gotten the love one yet, they skipped around that one.

[Edited on December 23, 2005 at 12:39 AM. Reason : ]

12/23/2005 12:39:41 AM

you have more discreprencies in this one thread than some aliases have on the whole wolf web


ps, i always find it odd when aaronburro and i are on the same side of an issue

12/23/2005 12:43:40 AM

man, I said it was rant. are you not conflicted inside?

My basic premise is, if God wanted the world to be good (which I never answered because I don't know) he should not have let people know he existed, because they (I was vague on they;ie - those who control things) will work only for that and nothing else (ie maintaining/improving earth).

If God wanted Earth to be not that good, and for people to suffer (which I also said, depends on what religion you are in, "how you fall on the line") then it works.

Therefore, if we wanted Earth to be better, people who don't think about God might be better able to handle government.

[Edited on December 23, 2005 at 12:57 AM. Reason : ]

12/23/2005 12:51:00 AM

hey, woodfoot, that just goes to show that I'm not the super conservative that my ID ramblings make me out to be

Quote :

"But in Calvinism, a form of Christianity for a short while, moral relativism was one of the tenets."

dude, no its not. The main tenet of Calvinism is pre-destination. Period, end of story. Calvinism was "some people are going to heaven, some people are not, its already been decided. deal with it. nothing you do on earth affects it. PEACE OUT!" Unless I just totally forgot my high school US history lesson on that shit, that was calvinism in a nutshell.

as far as I can tell, that shit is gone from Christianity, too, though I am told that Presbyterians hold some doctrines that seem to be related...

Quote :

"My basic premise is, if God wanted the world to be good ... he should not have let people know he existed, becuase they will work only for that and nothing else ..."

like I said, man, that makes NO sense. What is the point of religion? to give people a way to live and to answer some questions (what happens when we die, who made us, why does the sun rise and set...) If a god does not make its presence known to us, then how can such a being actually effect a religion? furthermore, how is such a religion even meaningful and how can such a god actually uphold his end of the bargain? "Ummm, hey, I didn't tell you this cause you didn't know I existed when you were physically alive, but, ummm, well, you had to do such and such in order to get in to heaven. Sorry man, you didn't do it, so you are going to hell. see ya!" That makes no sense, and it is entirely incongruous with the idea that God is just and fair. Moreover, its WAY more incongruous than any of the other bullshit arguments that people have come up with over the centuries (why do bad things happen to good people, etc)

12/23/2005 12:57:14 AM

Marxist answer to point of religion: to control the populace
Mine: people need to think there's something else, because they fear death (simplistic, but widely popular among the kids)

yeah, that's why a wanted to make it a surprise. It's like "Guess what...you were a dick. Go to hell."

then only good people would make it. There are tons of dicks that are Christians by name only (and I guess they're going to hell, I know, but try telling them that)

[Edited on December 23, 2005 at 1:08 AM. Reason : ]

12/23/2005 1:03:27 AM

the five points of calvinism are still very important
if people dont know them its just because they are idiots and skipped sunday school

[Edited on December 23, 2005 at 1:04 AM. Reason : in the presbyterian church at least]

12/23/2005 1:04:03 AM

word. I had perfect attendance until 8th grade...then with the downward spiral.

12/23/2005 1:05:03 AM

well from this thread its pretty obvious none of it stuck

12/23/2005 1:09:01 AM

No it stuck, somewhere. That's why Jesus is a good guy.

You know what else stuck: all the church in-fighting, hypocrisy, etc.

12/23/2005 1:10:30 AM

your confusing Christianity with the church
the church messes up, its made up of people and is thus by nature fallible
Christianity does not mess up

12/23/2005 1:12:16 AM

Quote :

"woodfoot, that just goes to show that I'm not the super conservative that my ID ramblings make me out to be "

or it could show that you can be a Believing Christian and a rampant liberal at the same time

12/23/2005 1:14:18 AM

so if people are the only ones that use Christianity, then it will invariably be fucked up. And some people fuck it up really bad.

12/23/2005 1:14:36 AM

Quote :

"Believing Christian and a rampant liberal "

the weird part is that the more you become the first the more the second should naturally follow
i wish more people got that

Quote :

"so if people are the only ones that use Christianity, then it will invariably be fucked up"

no

[Edited on December 23, 2005 at 1:16 AM. Reason : .]

12/23/2005 1:15:35 AM

man, you're a liberal too! word. I will admit this thread had a really incindiary title to it, I probably should've started it off slower.

but Christianity *in practice*, which is the only way I have seen it used, is fucked up.

12/23/2005 1:19:14 AM

no
there are fucked up people that incorrectly use it as a tool of oppression and hate

[Edited on December 23, 2005 at 1:20 AM. Reason : if i kill you with a spoon its not because the spoon is bad]

12/23/2005 1:20:14 AM

the managers of the theme park!

JonHGuth: *pats on head* Yes...the managers of the theme park.

[Edited on December 23, 2005 at 1:22 AM. Reason : ]

12/23/2005 1:20:40 AM

i didnt even read your extended analogy because of how stupid it was
so im only kinda sure what you mean by that

12/23/2005 1:22:40 AM

it was kinda lame, but that was also the point.

It's like certain president/staff misusing Christianity (with people following along) to accomplish nothing but bad things. The managers of the theme park are focused on the golden gates of Disney World instead of fixing the broken ass rollercoaster we have here.


Man...that analogy was the lynch pin of the entire argument...if people didn't read that

[Edited on December 23, 2005 at 1:28 AM. Reason : ]

12/23/2005 1:25:50 AM

Quote :

"he managers of the theme park are focused on the golden gates of Disney World instead of fixing the broken ass rollercoaster we have here. "

if tahts your point then i am not agreeing with you, so dont get confused

12/23/2005 1:28:52 AM

Is this thread still as idiotic as it was at the beginning? I haven't had time to read it.

12/23/2005 1:30:16 AM

And on the spoon point, if you killed me with a spoon I would ask (from Heaven):

Why was the spoon made? Where others planning on killing, controlling, or saving people when the spoon was made. Why is the spoon.

[Edited on December 23, 2005 at 1:31 AM. Reason : ]

12/23/2005 1:30:41 AM

there were some ok parts

12/23/2005 1:30:47 AM

^^^yes

[Edited on December 23, 2005 at 1:54 AM. Reason : extra ^]

12/23/2005 1:31:11 AM

there is no spoon


[Edited on December 23, 2005 at 1:32 AM. Reason : aha]

12/23/2005 1:31:58 AM

You know what I miss...



and there was that one scene with boobs

[Edited on December 23, 2005 at 1:34 AM. Reason : shower]

12/23/2005 1:34:00 AM

Quote :

"Why was the spoon made? "

the spoon always was

Quote :

"Where others planning on killing, controlling, or saving people when the spoon was made"

they werent created yet
but when they were all of those things were part of their nature

12/23/2005 1:34:18 AM

that's where we differ, the chicken/egg

oh well...

"And through the language of spoons..."

[Edited on December 23, 2005 at 1:36 AM. Reason : ]

12/23/2005 1:35:35 AM

if you disagree then what do you think created God?

12/23/2005 1:36:12 AM

man

i know, pessimistic

[Edited on December 23, 2005 at 1:38 AM. Reason : ]

12/23/2005 1:36:55 AM

you can't not beleive in God and be mad at his reasoning

12/23/2005 1:39:02 AM

yeah, but I said, let's assume there is a God...

and then I guess I'm mad at Him

and I don't even have boils or half my shit gone

[Edited on December 23, 2005 at 1:41 AM. Reason : ]

12/23/2005 1:39:52 AM

but do you not see the futility of trying to understand something when you don't beleive the critical part of it?
all you have to do is say that you don't beleive in God and theres not much room for discussion, as made evident by the post a few above this

[Edited on December 23, 2005 at 1:42 AM. Reason : ,]

12/23/2005 1:41:56 AM

oh yeah, I see it. I think a lot of other people believe the critical part, and not the *critical to life now* part. Again, misapplication of Christianity. I'm really bored though. I just wanted to float a hypothetical.

[Edited on December 23, 2005 at 1:52 AM. Reason : ]

12/23/2005 1:42:45 AM

"Before the mountains were created, before you made the earth and the world, you are God, without beginning or end"
-Psalms 90:? (forgot which verse)
before anything existed, god did

12/23/2005 1:50:34 AM

i'll have to trust you

12/23/2005 1:52:37 AM

read Proverbs 16

12/23/2005 1:54:28 AM

Quote :

"Proverbs 16 1 To man belong the plans of the heart, but from the LORD comes the reply of the tongue. 2 All a man's ways seem innocent to him, but motives are weighed by the LORD. 3 Commit to the LORD whatever you do, and your plans will succeed. 4 The LORD works out everything for his own ends— even the wicked for a day of disaster. 5 The LORD detests all the proud of heart. Be sure of this: They will not go unpunished. 6 Through love and faithfulness sin is atoned for; through the fear of the LORD a man avoids evil. 7 When a man's ways are pleasing to the LORD, he makes even his enemies live at peace with him. 8 Better a little with righteousness than much gain with injustice. 9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps. 10 The lips of a king speak as an oracle, and his mouth should not betray justice. 11 Honest scales and balances are from the LORD; all the weights in the bag are of his making. 12 Kings detest wrongdoing, for a throne is established through righteousness. 13 Kings take pleasure in honest lips; they value a man who speaks the truth. 14 A king's wrath is a messenger of death, but a wise man will appease it. 15 When a king's face brightens, it means life; his favor is like a rain cloud in spring. 16 How much better to get wisdom than gold, to choose understanding rather than silver! 17 The highway of the upright avoids evil; he who guards his way guards his life. 18 Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall. 19 Better to be lowly in spirit and among the oppressed than to share plunder with the proud. 20 Whoever gives heed to instruction prospers, and blessed is he who trusts in the LORD. 21 The wise in heart are called discerning, and pleasant words promote instruction. [a] 22 Understanding is a fountain of life to those who have it, but folly brings punishment to fools. 23 A wise man's heart guides his mouth, and his lips promote instruction. [b] 24 Pleasant words are a honeycomb, sweet to the soul and healing to the bones. 25 There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death. 26 The laborer's appetite works for him; his hunger drives him on. 27 A scoundrel plots evil, and his speech is like a scorching fire. 28 A perverse man stirs up dissension, and a gossip separates close friends. 29 A violent man entices his neighbor and leads him down a path that is not good. 30 He who winks with his eye is plotting perversity; he who purses his lips is bent on evil. 31 Gray hair is a crown of splendor; it is attained by a righteous life. 32 Better a patient man than a warrior, a man who controls his temper than one who takes a city. 33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD."

I like, it's really good. But I can't believe something I read somewhere. I am faith deficient.

12/23/2005 1:57:43 AM

im just trying to show you what christianity's answer is
the 4th verse was the one i was really talking about, i thought they talked more about it in that chapter

[Edited on December 23, 2005 at 2:02 AM. Reason : .]

12/23/2005 2:00:59 AM

I hear you, and thanks (sincerely). Thanks for shooting the shit with me, too.

/thread?

[Edited on December 23, 2005 at 2:10 AM. Reason : dun dun dun]

12/23/2005 2:06:00 AM

Quote :

"that analogy was the lynch pin of the entire argument.."

your analogy and your argument has been flawed from the beginning

any ill that modern church leaders perform has nothing to do with their eyes being set on heaven; heaven is the reason that modern church leaders do the right things

it is greed and lust which leads them to do improper things with their leadership roles

to use your analogy

they work at carowinds
they could someday wind up working at disney land
but instead of waiting for a better job later, they occasionally swing down to the embarassing county fair circuit, and while it provides temporal satisfaction, it can damage their chances of arriving at disneyland, or at least their standing upon arrival

i can't believe this shit is gonna reach 3 pages

Quote :

"you wanna call the time of death on this thread, or should I"

i'll call it; 12/22/2005 10:30:53 PM

12/23/2005 2:10:26 AM

ouch. that was harsh man, real harsh. I'll admit this thread was recklessly created, but it was all in good intellectual fun. Serious fun, but fun.

/thread

[Edited on December 23, 2005 at 2:24 AM. Reason : ]

12/23/2005 2:13:43 AM