Quote :

"Here's my anecdote: I just graduated from State with my teaching licensure. I went through a semester of student teaching, and did very well. However, I'm not planning on teaching if at all possible. Luckily my grades were good enough so I have other options available, and I'll pursue them before I even consider babysitting an overcrowded classroom for meager pay. Meager pay would be fine if I had low class sizes and could actually engage my students in learning, rather than babysit them. On the other hand, overcrowded classrooms would be ok, too; if they payed me enough. Both are not ok. So there; low pay and poor classroom environments has thus far kept at least one very qualified teacher out of our schools."

I thought teachers were in it for helping kids and all that touchy feely shit? And when you do have a real job tell your boss to increase your pay if he expects higher quality work from you and see how far that gets you.

Quote :

"Then this teacher was clearly not doing his job-- i.e. teaching all his students, not just the ones with enough self-motivation to pay attention to an hour long lecture."

Well, if you paid him more he'd surely work on those kids self-motivating factors, yes?

Quote :

"It actually is, given teachers' charge."

Bullshit.

Quote :

"The benefits are better than the pay, but that isn't saying much. They don't get optical or dental."

Not many get optical or dental these days. But they still get better benefits and raises than the rest of State Employees.

Quote :

"That's where you lost all credibility. Teaching in and of itself is a skill set. One that's much, much more important than subject knowledge. Have the average NCSU professor teach his subject in a high school and see how things go. Adolescent psychology, educational psychology, teaching methods, classroom management, etc... are not things that you can make up as you go."

See, this is where you seem to lack basic understanding. The problem is that right now it does not require the special skill set of "teaching". Teachers simply are not held accountable for their performance and are not held to a standard to warrant the higher pay. When it does happen then you can bring this charge, but the way the education system is setup right now this has no merit. The truth is that essentially anyone can be a teacher right now even if you don't exhibit the coveted teaching skill set. Oh, and I had the NC Teacher of the Year when I was in high school so I've seen good teaching before.

1/5/2006 1:10:36 AM

Quote :

"I thought teachers were in it for helping kids and all that touchy feely shit?"

We are, but all our altruistic motivations are moot when we're unable to inspire children due to the fact that we're being forced to juggle a class of 35. Hence the reason I said I'd accept low pay in exchange for better classroom conditions.

Quote :

"And when you do have a real job tell your boss to increase your pay if he expects higher quality work from you and see how far that gets you."

Because I was advocating this on a micro level.

Quote :

"This is backwards, teachers would get paid more if the job required more qualifications such as a more rigourous screening process. Higher qualifications increase the barriers to entry, reduce the supply of labor and in the end drive up wages."

Getting a teaching licensure is pretty tough, actually. It's an extra year of college and a semester-long practicum. Unfortunately there aren't enough licensed teachers to go around, because good, licensed teachers typically leave teaching when they realize how much work it is relative the pay, and how difficult making a difference in a child's life is nowadays, given the conditions of our schools. This leaves the crappy, nonlicensed teachers who have no choice but to teach.

Quote :

"Well, if you paid him more he'd surely work on those kids self-motivating factors, yes? "

So at some point are you actually going to address my arguments?

Quote :

"But they still get better benefits and raises than the rest of State Employees."

o rly?

Quote :

"See, this is where you seem to lack basic understanding. The problem is that right now it does not require the special skill set of "teaching". Teachers simply are not held accountable for their performance and are not held to a standard to warrant the higher pay. When it does happen then you can bring this charge, but the way the education system is setup right now this has no merit. The truth is that essentially anyone can be a teacher right now even if you don't exhibit the coveted teaching skill set."

So basically you're saying that [quality] teaching does in fact require a specific skill set, but that teachers shouldn't be paid for possessing said skill set, because -once again- there are bad apples. Perhaps if we spent enough on education to attract quality teachers and retain them for a while, we'd be able to raise our standards.

Quote :

"Oh, and I had the NC Teacher of the Year when I was in high school so I've seen good teaching before"

Well obviously I'm speaking with the Education Master. Why do I even try to argue with such impressive credentials? Please tell me how you would increase teacher standards without spending more money and/or hemorrhaging our teacher workforce.

1/5/2006 1:37:22 AM

The state and federal government have been increasing spending on education for the last thirty years and have practically nothing to show for it

Yet the catholic schools teaching inner city minorities are able to achieve plenty of success, pay teachers less, and have significantly lower costs per pupil

Bring on the fucking vouchers

1/5/2006 2:05:00 AM

You seem to imply that in that case it's the schools, and not the families in the schools, that account for the success of most private schools.

Private schools are filled exclusively with children whose parents' care. Tell me: what special attribute do Catholic schools possess that would make them do any better at teaching the general public school population?

Quote :

"The state and federal government have been increasing spending on education for the last thirty years and have practically nothing to show for it"

Oh, well. Increasing. Just so long as it's increasing, it's clearly adequate

[Edited on January 5, 2006 at 2:11 AM. Reason : .]

1/5/2006 2:10:44 AM

The fundamental problem being argued in nearly all the situations I have seen on here is one of professionalism. For nearly all the teachers in the system, it seems to be understood that teachers are part of a profession, and they have specific skills and techniques.

However, most people outside of the profession think of teaching as a job, not a profession, and the respect and esteem for a job is much different from a profession (think medical/legal). I believe one of the key factors is the belief that any person who is relatively educated can teach well (we have all passed high school, so we should be able to teach anything below that relatively easily), which innately diminishes the respect for that task.

Basically, the mantra that if I can do it, it can't be that hard. That bleeds over to the belief that teachers do not deserve to be paid as professionals, regardless of the training that is required, and regardless of the truth of the matter. We don't begrudge doctors or lawyers for their right to make decent money based on their specialization and learned skillset, nor do we say anything when pilots complain that 150k isn't enough money, but there always seems to be significant disagreement over teacher salaries, and more importantly, teacher effort.

I am consistently disappointed by the number of people who think they could do my job, much less do it well. I did not go to school for teaching, I was lateral entry, but in the four years I have been teaching I have seen many people who were lateral entry come and go, because it was not quite what they thoought it would be. It was generally too difficult and not worth the effort. That is the general response from most new teachers in NC, even those who have been trained. The average career duration of a teacher in NC is less than 5 years.

Also, one of the main things that is part of the job of teacher is the behind the scenes stuff, which often is more difficult and more stressful than the job itself. Additional staff duties, time spent to be in compliance with state and federal laws and tracking for every student as part of increased accountability programs, modification of lessons for individualized populations, and mounds of paperwork are just a few of the extra thngs that people never take into account.

Just a few things to think about.

1/5/2006 2:16:55 AM

^ ya rly

1/5/2006 2:20:22 AM

Quote :

"The state and federal government have been increasing spending on education for the last thirty years and have practically nothing to show for it Yet the catholic schools teaching inner city minorities are able to achieve plenty of success, pay teachers less, and have significantly lower costs per pupil "

Increased spending doesn't mean spending in the right places. Buying the head of the school district another BMW is not the same as paying teachers more and hiring more teachers and having more room so there are fewer people in the classes.

The catholic schools also have much smaller class sizes, (many) segregate the class by gender, and have stricter codes of dicipline that would get many public schools sued by whiney parents who think their precious angel is the perfect child.

1/5/2006 4:15:19 AM

Quote :

"The fundamental problem being argued in nearly all the situations I have seen on here is one of professionalism. For nearly all the teachers in the system, it seems to be understood that teachers are part of a profession, and they have specific skills and techniques."

Whatever skills and techniques that an education degree may endow to you it matters not. The real question is what can you do with them? Can you actually teach the kids? Or are you just full of edu-speak? The same goes for any profession. It is not training but rather results that matter. If I have all the formal education in the world and I can not do the job then I ought to be fired. Plain as that.

Quote :

"However, most people outside of the profession think of teaching as a job, not a profession, and the respect and esteem for a job is much different from a profession (think medical/legal). I believe one of the key factors is the belief that any person who is relatively educated can teach well (we have all passed high school, so we should be able to teach anything below that relatively easily), which innately diminishes the respect for that task."

I have the utmost respect for good teachers, but I do not for one moment believe that they are
good teachers because they learned a bunch of psychobabble in college. Truly gifted teachers do not have some particular skill in general, what seperates them is that they care about their job. I sincerely believe that most people (sufficiently intelligent and personable) can be good teachers if they try. The best teacher I ever had never had any formal educational training. What he had was a passion for teaching, and a genuine heart to help students learn. Thanks to professionalism this man can not teach in highschool. No, first he would have to be trained, thank you teacher's unions.

The sucess of homeschooling also indicates that formal education about how to teach is not essential.

Quote :

"Also, one of the main things that is part of the job of teacher is the behind the scenes stuff, which often is more difficult and more stressful than the job itself. Additional staff duties, time spent to be in compliance with state and federal laws and tracking for every student as part of increased accountability programs, modification of lessons for individualized populations, and mounds of paperwork are just a few of the extra thngs that people never take into account."

Here you have my sympathy. I would point out that this one of the myriad reasons that
schooling should be privatized. Maybe then we could get back to basics and focus more on
teaching.

1/5/2006 4:43:05 AM

Hey! Let's have a thread where uninformed people argue about what other peoples' jobs entail! And when the person who actually has experience in the field says something to the contrary, everyone can be like "nuh-uh! This is what X job is really about! I know, because I was around people in this field when I was 18!"

It'll be great!




[Edited on January 5, 2006 at 12:28 PM. Reason : ]

1/5/2006 12:10:51 PM

The sad thing is, there's plenty of money floating around the beaurocracy of education that isn't doing nearly the good it could be.

In 2004 the Department of Education got something like 51.3 billion dollars. There are 53.1 million school-age children in the United States. Get rid of the Department of Education and that's about $966 per student that could be spent any number of ways.

Let's say for the sake of easy numbers that the average class size is 25. That basically leaves us with $24,000 and some change extra to spend on each class, easily enough to buy a couple of computers, raise the teacher's pay substantially, and, when combined with similar funds from other classes across the school, hire several new teachers.

Now, of course at this point you will say that it is obvious that we could cut any large national project and do the same thing. This is true. But not every large national project needs cutting like the Dept. of Education does. Perhaps not total elimination, but a massive and ironclad cutback. If we're going to rightfully say that education is a state matter we should let the states spend the fucking money.

1/5/2006 12:57:00 PM

^ It would have to be a block grant to each state with no strings attached (spend it however you want, build a fucking bridge if you wish!), and the same should be done with every other dollar the fed dolls out, because perverse incentives are a bitch.

1/5/2006 2:01:04 PM

Quote :

"perverse incentives are a bitch."

So is pork like bridges to nowhere.

No, the money should be limited to educational use, but within that context it should be spent freely.

1/5/2006 2:53:12 PM

Quote :

"We are, but all our altruistic motivations are moot when we're unable to inspire children due to the fact that we're being forced to juggle a class of 35. Hence the reason I said I'd accept low pay in exchange for better classroom conditions."

SO you want to increase pay and decrease the class size (therefore increasing the number of teachers we need and the number of classrooms we need to build/improve)? Unless you do some serious restructuring of the education (at least to the point where more than 50% of its expenditure doesn't go to people who never see a student) then this is simply not economically logical.

Quote :

"Because I was advocating this on a micro level. "

It applies, no matter the scale.

Quote :

"Getting a teaching licensure is pretty tough, actually. It's an extra year of college and a semester-long practicum. Unfortunately there aren't enough licensed teachers to go around, because good, licensed teachers typically leave teaching when they realize how much work it is relative the pay, and how difficult making a difference in a child's life is nowadays, given the conditions of our schools. This leaves the crappy, nonlicensed teachers who have no choice but to teach."

One year for a complete profession change? Pretty typical for any field, and usually much longer for anything technical.

Quote :

"So at some point are you actually going to address my arguments?"

At some point are you going to address mine other than "Its so hard to motivate kids and I can't afford the leather package on my new sedan!"

Quote :

"So basically you're saying that [quality] teaching does in fact require a specific skill set, but that teachers shouldn't be paid for possessing said skill set, because -once again- there are bad apples. Perhaps if we spent enough on education to attract quality teachers and retain them for a while, we'd be able to raise our standards."

Not what I said Until there is a method to discern what deserves a pay increase you cannot justifiably increase pay. That is simply throwing money at the problem and quite frankly education already gets a shit ton of money thrown at it.

Quote :

"Well obviously I'm speaking with the Education Master. Why do I even try to argue with such impressive credentials? Please tell me how you would increase teacher standards without spending more money and/or hemorrhaging our teacher workforce. "

ever claimed to be an education master, merely expressing the point that I have seen teaching at its best. As for the rest, two logical approaches: #1) Gut the fuck out of the Public School System to eliminate the excessive bloat in administration. #2) Privatized education. A business has to follow a bottom line and look out for competition while the governement likes writing in the red because its good for business.

Quote :

"You seem to imply that in that case it's the schools, and not the families in the schools, that account for the success of most private schools. Private schools are filled exclusively with children whose parents' care. Tell me: what special attribute do Catholic schools possess that would make them do any better at teaching the general public school population?"

Its not just the results, its the cost. Private schools are getting the results with inner-city kids that public schools are not (a situation where your wealthy family scenario does not apply). Just check out Milwaukee Public Schools. The problem is the education system and simply increasing teacher pay does nothing to address this.

Quote :

"Oh, well. Increasing. Just so long as it's increasing, it's clearly adequate "

That is essentially what you are asking for with teacher salaries.

Quote :

"Hey! Let's have a thread where uninformed people argue about what other peoples' jobs entail! And when the person who actually has experience in the field says something to the contrary, everyone can be like "nuh-uh! This is what X job is really about! I know, because I was around people in this field when I was 18!" It'll be great! "

Sort of like every post, including yours, on the actions of politicians and/or the military? Yeah, can't have it both ways.

1/5/2006 4:31:45 PM

on a side note, teachers are great in bed

1/5/2006 4:55:31 PM

When have I ever told anyone on this board that I knew their profession better than they did?

1/5/2006 5:48:15 PM

Quote :

"Private schools are getting the results with inner-city kids that public schools are not"

what characteristics of private schools cause this difference in your opinion? I always thought private schools were better because they had the money to attract better teachers and have smaller class sizes.

1/5/2006 5:54:37 PM

a lot of private school teachers get paid less than their public school counterpart - look it up

1/5/2006 6:25:35 PM

Private schools have a much higher teacher:administrator ratio ie a sleeker management chain. Also, they fire bad teachers and recruit good ones.

1/5/2006 6:35:33 PM

^^I don't really feel like looking that up. I'm sure some private school teachers get paid shitty salaries too, but I imagine those aren't the better private schools. If you wanna link to something that says otherwise feel free to do so.

^ how does "sleeker management chain" = better education? My intuition is that it's because the school has more money to pay good teachers with instead of spending it on administrators. Recruiting good teachers is all about money/benefits/working conditions.

1/5/2006 7:17:49 PM

Quote :

"how does "sleeker management chain" = better education?"

Less bullshit oversight too. It's easier to try new things when you only have to run it by a principal, and not a dept head, vice-principal, principal and board of ed.

1/5/2006 8:08:31 PM

I'll buy that, with the condition that less oversight only translates into better education if the teachers are good. If they suck then less oversight could make it worse.

[Edited on January 5, 2006 at 8:27 PM. Reason : typo]

1/5/2006 8:26:54 PM

By cutting bullshit they are able to appropraite more of the budget to the teachers and the actual education and doing it at a lower overall cost. I remember a bit a few years ago that compared WCPSS to I believe 2 Raleigh private schools and the cost per pupil at the private schools was half of what WCPSS spends. The biggest is that WCPSS spent more than 50% of its salary budget on people who never see a single student. They've created bloat in administration and operations (like you see in ever facet of state government) and diverted money from their original purpose of the system, educating. Cut this fluff and you will have a huge cache that can give the teachers their pay increase and do it without raising taxes. At the same time you need to implement higher standards for the teachers, or at least a better accountability system that encourages effort and good work. If you don't do it at the same time as the pay raise it will be difficult to bring in later because the Education lobby is very powerful and wins in the court of public opinion (no one wants to be labeled "against education" or "against helping the children/our future").

1/5/2006 11:36:27 PM

There's fat to be cut in administration, but the comparisons to private schools are totally misleading.


private schools don't have to educate mentally disabled students

they don't have to provide for ESL education

they don't have to provide teaching modifications for special needs students

they don't have to provide necessities for impoverished students

they don't maintain their facilities but rather contract the work

they don't need to provide all students with transportation

etc...


All this requires overhead. But don't let that stop you from believing the guy on 680am

1/6/2006 12:21:15 AM

More than 50% going to people who never see a student is not misleading. Its typical state government bloat and it can be stopped.

1/6/2006 11:51:19 AM

First of all, you're pulling the 50% figure out of nowhere, second of all, how would you know what percentage is good and what isn't? You have no clue what a proper percentage is.

This entire thread has been you demonstrating your complete ignorance on the subject of public education (go WPTF!), and because of that there's no use arguing in it anymore.

1/6/2006 1:23:03 PM

Quote :

"First of all, you're pulling the 50% figure out of nowhere, second of all, how would you know what percentage is good and what isn't? You have no clue what a proper percentage is."

True, the 50% figure sounds like a pretty general approximation, but I don't think it's the worst estimate in the world. Admittedly, you have to take "never sees a student" in something less than its strictest sense.

I'm sure it's common practice all over, but in Greensboro every year the independent newspaper publishes most of the salaries for people involved in "education" in the county, and the upper end of that list is just a litany of people with bullshit posts getting paid mad bank. Even though those people are fewer in number than those that actually interact with students, their bloated salaries compensate a lot. Throw on top of that all the statewide and then nationwide beaurocracy (where the people are even less likely to deal with students), and it wouldn't exactly surprise me to find that 50% was about right.

The point, of course, isn't that the number is 50%, but rather that, whatever it is, it certainly seems too high. We do know what a truly proper percentage is: 100% of education funds should go to people who interact directly with students, ideally. We all know that nothing ideal ever happens, so we accept that the only proper percentage is the highest one (or lowest, I'm confused now). And if you think the government is operating at optimal efficiency in education or anywhere else, I'm going to laugh heartily at you.

1/6/2006 2:10:35 PM

Quote :

"First of all, you're pulling the 50% figure out of nowhere, second of all, how would you know what percentage is good and what isn't? You have no clue what a proper percentage is. This entire thread has been you demonstrating your complete ignorance on the subject of public education (go WPTF!), and because of that there's no use arguing in it anymore."

WCPSS's financial records are made public. You can easily check the math on it if you so desire. Does it honestly surprise you that State/locally run operations get so bloated? I see it everyday at work. If you want to make the system better then start from within, more money does not address the real problems. Also, I don't listen to WPTF. You say I demonstrate complete ignorance on public education but you demonstrate complete ignorance on logisitics. If what you care so much about is a better education system, instead of simply lining your pockets, then put your effort at the education system rather than simply asking for more money. Hell, its not like education is the small man on the block when it comes to budget appropriations.

[Edited on January 6, 2006 at 2:40 PM. Reason : /]

1/6/2006 2:36:25 PM

well I checked the WCPSS's financial records and it turns out that only around 20% is spent paying people who never see a student. If you doubt the veracity of that statement then do the math yourself, the records are public.

1/6/2006 3:05:08 PM

but seriously, from their 2004 CAFR

total spent on instructional programs: 375,880,606
total spent on supporting services (which includes administration, business offices, etc): 81,362,056

total expenditure: 457,248,978

that' puts it at around 18%

here's a link even: http://www.wcpss.net/financial/

[Edited on January 6, 2006 at 3:31 PM. Reason : link]

1/6/2006 3:30:01 PM

Satan doesn't lie


And I'm no businessman, but isn't 18% overhead pretty low?

[Edited on January 6, 2006 at 6:26 PM. Reason : .]

1/6/2006 6:15:43 PM

Quote :

"Perhaps if the states paid the apples a little more, and didn't fill each classroom with 35 little apples, they'd have more qualified apples apply."

perhaps if the states and counties treated the apples with respect then they wouldn't have to hire any old apple that came along.

Quote :

"This is backwards, teachers would get paid more if the job required more qualifications such as a more rigourous screening process. Higher qualifications increase the barriers to entry, reduce the supply of labor and in the end drive up wages."

did you really say that out loud? supply and demand works both ways, dumbass. If you make the wage too low, then no one will apply for the job, and if you make the wage too high then many people will apply for the job. Besides, its common knowledge that few people go into teaching in the public schools for the money. If anything, the lack of money is one of the major drawbacks.

Quote :

"Hell, cops deal with far worse and make less than teachers. RN's, social workers, insurance adjusters, truck drivers, etc. all deal with stressful situations all day that are taxing but that alone does not dictate what they should be paid."

hmmmm, lets also notice the shortage of cops, RNs, social workers, insurance adjusters, ...

Quote :

"Plus, an extra 2 months off ain't that bad of a deal."

HA. if you really think its "2 months off," then you are fooling yourself.

Quote :

"There is a viable private sector available for teachers They have their specific field of study and they have higher education."

hmmmm. remind me what the specific field is for most teachers. oh yeah, TEACHING. dumbass.

Quote :

"I thought teachers were in it for helping kids and all that touchy feely shit?"

that touchy feely shit went out the window years ago and got replaced by babysitting brats 8 hours a day.

Quote :

"Well, if you paid him more he'd surely work on those kids self-motivating factors, yes?"

not likely. But maybe if you actually allowed him to discipline children and put teachers in charge again, you'd see some results for the aforementioned kids.

Quote :

"But they still get better benefits and raises than the rest of State Employees."

you mean like that raise they didn't get for well over 3 years? yeah......

Quote :

"Private schools are filled exclusively with children whose parents' care."

i doubt thats the case in the inner city schools that were mentioned...

Quote :

"The sucess of homeschooling also indicates that formal education about how to teach is not essential. "

wow. the "success" couldn't possibly be due to the fact that homeschooled children have parents who give a damn about their education, could it? naaaaaaaah. thats crazy talk!

Quote :

"what characteristics of private schools cause this difference in your opinion?"

one word: control

1/6/2006 6:46:36 PM

Look at the General Fund:
$117,197,352 Instructional -> 46%
$126,655,449 Supporting -> 54%

Combined:
$454,750,376 Instructional -> 70%
$191,730,124 Supporting -> 30%


So, you see, Satan cannot be trusted.

The general fund is money left over after state mandated funds are paid. This is probably why it was highlighted. Basically administration is taking more than their fair share of it.

Quote :

"And I'm no businessman, but isn't 18% overhead pretty low?"

18% would not be the overhead, its about 54%.

1/6/2006 8:21:18 PM

Quote :

"perhaps if the states and counties treated the apples with respect then they wouldn't have to hire any old apple that came along."

Quote :

"did you really say that out loud? supply and demand works both ways, dumbass. If you make the wage too low, then no one will apply for the job, and if you make the wage too high then many people will apply for the job. Besides, its common knowledge that few people go into teaching in the public schools for the money. If anything, the lack of money is one of the major drawbacks."

An average salary of $46,000 a year is better than the rest of state government by about $10,000.

Quote :

"hmmmm, lets also notice the shortage of cops, RNs, social workers, insurance adjusters, ..."

Then I guess you are saying that teachers should not be the priority in raises seeing ashow they make more and there are just as vital jobs, if not more so in some cases, out there that are paid far less.

Quote :

"HA. if you really think its "2 months off," then you are fooling yourself."

You are right, throw in the extended winter/sping breaks and its probably a bit over.

Quote :

"hmmmm. remind me what the specific field is for most teachers. oh yeah, TEACHING. dumbass."

Or math, english, chemsitry, physics, history, psychology, etc.

Quote :

"that touchy feely shit went out the window years ago and got replaced by babysitting brats 8 hours a day."

Oh, so now teachers are simply babysitting brats 8 hours a day? Well, fuck a pay raise! They need a pay cut!

Quote :

"not likely. But maybe if you actually allowed him to discipline children and put teachers in charge again, you'd see some results for the aforementioned kids."

The school system is responsible for the changes in teacher discipline, talk to them. Besides, what is your idea of discipline?

Quote :

"you mean like that raise they didn't get for well over 3 years? yeah......"

State Employees have received less than teachers. As pointed out, average salary differs by more than $10,000. Teachers have already been pledge 5% each year for the next three years and have received raises in recent years while state employees have gotten jack shit.

Quote :

"i doubt thats the case in the inner city schools that were mentioned..."

Milwuakee.

Quote :

"one word: control"

bottom line and competition

1/6/2006 8:45:23 PM

where the hell do you get 54%? even if you combine the general fund with the state public school fund (which were the numbers I showed) it's still only 30%. There's even a nice little pie graph on page 7 for you. If you only look at the general fund, you're not looking at what is actually spent. Here are the total expenditures:

total instruction: 526,728,536
total support services: 254,856,210
total school dis expenses: 819,363,599

1/6/2006 9:04:39 PM

I'm also unsure where you get the 46k as being the average salary. Here are lists of the salaries people get in Wake: http://www.wcpss.net/salary-schedules/teachers/

I'm guessing most teachers would fall under the "A" License Salaries with Board Certification category. And many of those are probably under 14 years, which is how long they would have to work to get to 46k.

It should also be noted that Wake is one of the more desirable counties to work in and it's fairly difficult to find a teaching job there (according to teachers I know).

[Edited on January 6, 2006 at 9:34 PM. Reason : .]

1/6/2006 9:33:16 PM

Quote :

"An average salary of $46,000 a year is better than the rest of state government by about $10,000."

sure, when you factor in the dog catchers and prison guards... besides, the average may be 46K, but I want to know the median, and who all is included in this number. Plus, when you figure that new teacher retention is horrible right now, you have to believe that number will change drastically in the next 5 years. furthermore, 46K really isn't all that much to write home about. Its better than your McD's worker, sure, but your average engineering grad will start out well over that...

Quote :

"Then I guess you are saying that teachers should not be the priority in raises seeing ashow they make more and there are just as vital jobs, if not more so in some cases, out there that are paid far less."

actually, I'm saying nothing of the sort. You pointed out all these low paying jobs where the work is really hard, and I pointed out that there are shortages in just those kinds of jobs. Makes fucking sense to me what I am getting at.

Quote :

"You are right, throw in the extended winter/sping breaks and its probably a bit over."

you clearly know nothing about the life of a teacher.

Quote :

"Or math, english, chemsitry, physics, history, psychology, etc."

Or math education, english education, chemsitry education, physics education, history education, psychology education, etc. The majority of these teachers are not getting the general degree you so want to believe they are getting. They are getting a degree concentrated on education. Thus, there is no private sector for them.

Quote :

"Oh, so now teachers are simply babysitting brats 8 hours a day? Well, fuck a pay raise! They need a pay cut!"

wow. thats really going to help w/ teacher retention and recruiting isn't it? "hey, here are really shitty working conditions. now we're going to make it even worse by reducing your already miniscule starting pay! Come on in!"

Quote :

"The school system is responsible for the changes in teacher discipline, talk to them. Besides, what is your idea of discipline?"

My idea of discipline? Punishment with teeth. Telling parents to fuck off when their child is being a monster and telling them that if they don't like it they can go send little johnny terror to private school. Hit the "parents" where it hurts: the pocketbook. Kid can't behave? kick his ass out FOR GOOD. make the parent babysit him.

Quote :

"Teachers have already been pledge 5% each year for the next three years"

yeah, because they got overlooked for the past 12. If you want to know anything about the state of teachers' salaries, look no further than Jim Hunt, who used salaries to get re-elected. He'd raise salaries pretty nicely the year before re-election and then cut back or eliminate future raises until he felt like running again. also, note what you said: "pledged." AKA, it don't mean jack shit.

Quote :

"Milwuakee."

Quote :

"Yet the catholic schools teaching inner city minorities are able to achieve plenty of success, pay teachers less, and have significantly lower costs per pupil"

reading is fundamental, moron. just because some guy mentions milwaukee AFTER the post i referenced doesn't mean that the post I reference should have known milwaukee was coming up

1/6/2006 9:38:26 PM

i think that this debate would run a little smoother if we stopped isolating everyone's individual quotes sentence by sentence and simply addressed the summation of the ideas.

i am enjoying reading the different perspectives, but just from a persoanl standpoint it would be much more fluid if people would avoid the parsing.

just a thought. i think it saves time for the posters as well.

1/6/2006 11:56:06 PM

I stopped the point by point rebuttals when I realized he was just regurgitating talking points from the local AM radio guy.

1/7/2006 12:05:38 AM

nah. quote by quote is the way to go

1/7/2006 12:33:19 AM

Only if the person's worth the time

1/7/2006 1:14:23 AM

Quote :

"where the hell do you get 54%? even if you combine the general fund with the state public school fund (which were the numbers I showed) it's still only 30%. There's even a nice little pie graph on page 7 for you. If you only look at the general fund, you're not looking at what is actually spent. Here are the total expenditures: total instruction: 526,728,536 total support services: 254,856,210 total school dis expenses: 819,363,599"

Total expenditures actually is $910m if you are wanting to calculate overhead (have to include capital expenditures) and $526 is more than just teacher salaries (which is what bd was basing it off) so I removed other costs.

Quote :

"I'm also unsure where you get the 46k as being the average salary. Here are lists of the salaries people get in Wake: http://www.wcpss.net/salary-schedules/teachers/ I'm guessing most teachers would fall under the "A" License Salaries with Board Certification category. And many of those are probably under 14 years, which is how long they would have to work to get to 46k. It should also be noted that Wake is one of the more desirable counties to work in and it's fairly difficult to find a teaching job there (according to teachers I know)."

$46k is what the average teacher makes based off the raises they get this year. 43k+ was the average from 2003-04. Also, this is an average of across the state and not wealthier systems like Wake or Meck.

Quote :

"sure, when you factor in the dog catchers and prison guards... besides, the average may be 46K, but I want to know the median, and who all is included in this number. Plus, when you figure that new teacher retention is horrible right now, you have to believe that number will change drastically in the next 5 years. furthermore, 46K really isn't all that much to write home about. Its better than your McD's worker, sure, but your average engineering grad will start out well over that..."

How many dog catchers do you think there are on State payroll, seriously. Social workers, child services, rehab counselors, registered nurses, psychiatrists, district attorneys, and clinical social workers are just a few of the jobs that make up state employees. All of these are pretty fucking important too. 46k isnt much? That is pretty damn good salary. Sure engineer grads have a shot to start out more than that but they also are in a very technical field that the majority of people can't hack it in during school. Hell, veterinarians average about that and they go to school for 8-10 years. Also, according to Easley the teachers will be making $51-52k for the average within 3 years.. not bad for 10 months of work.

Quote :

" you clearly know nothing about the life of a teacher."

Except the ones that I know, of course.

Quote :

"Or math education, english education, chemsitry education, physics education, history education, psychology education, etc. The majority of these teachers are not getting the general degree you so want to believe they are getting. They are getting a degree concentrated on education. Thus, there is no private sector for them."

If they choose to limit their own education something so specific then they fully know what their future employment outllook is. That is their choice, just like an art history major working at Hardee's. I know the girl I dated was a Math major. Besides, they can easily transition into administration or other comparable desk jobs from being a teacher. Hell, they could be like the rest of the population and go back to school to get an even better job.

Quote :

"wow. thats really going to help w/ teacher retention and recruiting isn't it? "hey, here are really shitty working conditions. now we're going to make it even worse by reducing your already miniscule starting pay! Come on in!" "

Like most things, you miss the point.

Quote :

"My idea of discipline? Punishment with teeth. Telling parents to fuck off when their child is being a monster and telling them that if they don't like it they can go send little johnny terror to private school. Hit the "parents" where it hurts: the pocketbook. Kid can't behave? kick his ass out FOR GOOD. make the parent babysit him."

Its like you are arguing against yourself. As boonedocks would say, those teachers are not doing their job if they can't motivate and involve the problem kids. If you are going ot make the job cake then you are negating their biggest justification for a pay raise. gg

Quote :

"yeah, because they got overlooked for the past 12. If you want to know anything about the state of teachers' salaries, look no further than Jim Hunt, who used salaries to get re-elected. He'd raise salaries pretty nicely the year before re-election and then cut back or eliminate future raises until he felt like running again. also, note what you said: "pledged." AKA, it don't mean jack shit."

I work for the State and so does both my parents. I hear about pay raises plenty. Teachers have not been ignored for the past 12 years. You are simply speaking out of your ass here. WHen there wa sa surplus this past year the SEANC asked that it be spread among the poorest of state employees (I wanna say those making less than $32k) and give them each just $150 more. That was refused.

Quote :

"reading is fundamental, moron. just because some guy mentions milwaukee AFTER the post i referenced doesn't mean that the post I reference should have known milwaukee was coming up"

So its my fault you can't thoroughly read a thread? I was simply providing you direction as to where to look into the problems/points addressed already... Milwaukee

Quote :

"i think that this debate would run a little smoother if we stopped isolating everyone's individual quotes sentence by sentence and simply addressed the summation of the ideas."

Its how we roll.

Quote :

"I stopped the point by point rebuttals when I realized he was just regurgitating talking points from the local AM radio guy."

I don't listen to local AM radio.


Look, NC teacher salary (looking at the average) is actually quite good on a national level, especially if you take into account each state's cost of living and such. The problem with NC is that the education system has pat itself on the back and created a dramatic wage gap between the veterans and the new employees. Tell them to scale back the upper end and stop applying percentage raises wholesale. You have to load the bottom end. Also, the fact that teachers get a raise every year simply because they have been teaching one more year is pretty stupid. No one else in state government gets pay increases like that. We have to get promotions or find a higher level job somewhere else. Evaluation of a teacher's performance should be the primary factor, not simply being there.

[Edited on January 7, 2006 at 1:53 AM. Reason : .]

1/7/2006 1:29:27 AM

I'm going to jump in again here.

I don't think you know much regarding the subject.

I have been a teacher for four years, and I pay very close attention to all of the issues that have been mentioned in the thread. And in addition, I am also part of the North Carolina Association of Educators and the National Association of Educatiors, the North Carolina and national unions, respectively. I don't always support the unions, but the NCAE especially works extremely hard to have the teachers' concerns addressed.

I understand you have an opinion on the issues and I respect that, but I am relatively confident that your opinions are not based on enough salient experience with the insides of the issues to be valid.

To begin with, there are plenty of teachers who don't need to be in teaching. They don't commit fully to the job, and they don't know or care enough to be in it. At my school with approximately 80 staff members, I can honestly say that figure is about 3-4 people. There are teachers who leave the profession (my school in the four years I have been there has an average teacher turnover of about 30-35%), but many do so because they are not making enough money, the hours are too long, or the hassles and stress take too much of a toll on their health either emotionally or physically.

However, the vast majority are great, hardworking people. Unless you can do the job fairly well, it begins to wear on you and in a short period of time you are out. I'm sure we all have anecdotal stories about how there was a teacher using the same materials for thirty years and they were a horrible teacher, blah, blah, blah....

Strangely enough, you may find that if you were to walk into a school today, or better yet, in about five years when you have a little more in the way of stability and comparative experience, you would perceive what is occurring in the classroom far differently than you did when you were a student.

I know teachers will never be paid what they are worth in our society, because there are simply too many of them, and there isn't enough money for across the board pay raises of that kind. I won't crack 40 grand until I've been working for 19 years. 19 years! My roommate answers phone for IBM as a first level tech support rep, and he made more than that in his second full year of employment. I don't really have an issue with the pay being what it is because I don't need much money to survive and be comfortable, and I do the job because I love it (I could get a job in Wake County at any moment and make 5% more a year easily, but I work in Burlington and drive two hours a day because I love what I do there).

Don't talk about discipline in the classroom. You don't understand it. You can't until you have been in a classroom and you know the actual forces that are supporting you and preventing you from being effective. Every environment is different, but I can keep this part of the argument short by saying that you have no more concept of effective and plausible discipline techniques than I have knowing the most effective quarterbacking techniques at the professional level. When you are on the field, things are a lot different.

(Just so you know, I don't have regular discipline problems. My kids love, respect, and fear me. I am essentially a surrogate parent to them. I am one of the most effective teachers in the school with that. I'm not bragging so much as stating a fact so that you understand this is coming from someone who knows the myriad of techniques for getting a thirteen year old to behave themselves the way you want them to and still be able to flourish and be successful.)

I'm done.

1/7/2006 11:44:23 AM

"Teachers would get paid more if the job required more qualifications such as a more rigourous screening process. Higher qualifications increase the barriers to entry, reduce the supply of labor and in the end drive up wages."


This is an uneducated response and you should check your information before you speak. You obviously are not an education major nor do you know what (at least NC) requires for an education major to graduate. You also must not know about the portfolios we must put together to present during job interviews. You also must not know about the classes we must take that are specific to an education degree and specific to our subject area. You also must not know about the Praxis testing that we must pass to become certified (there are two of these by the way, one before you are consider a "teacher candidate" and one before you graduate). Maybe you do not know that once certified teachers must continue their education, constantly being sent to workshops, being retested, and increasing their qualifications to better themselves.

While there are some teachers that may or may not live up to your expectations that does not give you the right to degrade the rest by saying such statements. Educators have to graduate with a four year degree in a specific subject area, but get paid a salary close to one of an office secretary. No offense, but that does not say much about you to imply that we deserve to get paid such a low amount. So maybe now you will know more about what people like me are doing and you could only be so lucky to have such a well-qualified teacher teach your children one day


[Edited on January 7, 2006 at 12:45 PM. Reason : ..]

1/7/2006 12:31:46 PM

I would be lucky to have a teacher that doesnt understand even the most basic economic principles?

Supply and Demand is a bitch.

1/7/2006 12:50:12 PM

[Edited on January 7, 2006 at 1:30 PM. Reason : because I am going to be mature]

1/7/2006 1:13:28 PM

either you didnt understand what I said or you made an irrelevant point

the fact that there are already high qualifications required to become a teacher does not mean the supply of labor would not be reduced if the qualifications were increased further



[Edited on January 7, 2006 at 1:23 PM. Reason : ]

1/7/2006 1:21:31 PM

as it is now, NC has a teacher shortage well over 10,000.

i'm not seeing how raising the qualifications is going to help anything. i would love to have the problem of too many teachers and then you could weed through, but it's not like that in NC. it IS like that up north, but they pay about 10 grand more on average. there are so many teachers there that many of them come down here because they cannot find work.

1/7/2006 6:17:12 PM

it's simple economics. pay more and you attract more, better applicants.

1/8/2006 11:54:33 AM