healthcare is maybe the only thing Cuba has done right.

even still, its not anywhere near the level of any developed nation (and not worth staying there for).

[Edited on January 29, 2006 at 4:50 PM. Reason : .]

1/29/2006 4:49:38 PM

^ How can they be? They've been embargoed for a long time now.

1/29/2006 5:09:12 PM

Socialism is evil. It punishes people who are successful and rewards people who fail. Noone should be made to pay for someone else's living expenses. No socialized healthcare. Socialism is a cancer that must be purged from collective body of humanity. Chile did great after Pinochet (one of my personal heroes) instituted pro-capitalist reforms.

[Edited on January 29, 2006 at 5:29 PM. Reason : .]

1/29/2006 5:29:14 PM

Why is Pinochet your hero? He brutally killed thousands of people, and threw the country in to economic turmoil. That's like calling someone like Bin Laden your hero.

1/29/2006 5:48:10 PM

How did he throw the country into economic turmoil? It's the socialist who preceded him, Allende, who did that. His economic policy did wonders for Chile. As for killing people, the only ones he killed were socialists/communists/leftists. If you weren't a communist/socialist/leftist you had nothing to worry about.

1/29/2006 5:54:27 PM

persecution for beliefs that go against the state...we usually call that tyrrany, fascism, terror, and any number of other negative terms.

to be sure theres a better hero you could have that shares your beliefs.

1/29/2006 6:01:29 PM

Quote :

"two girls at the same time"

1/29/2006 6:56:04 PM

Quote :

"Chile did great after Pinochet (one of my personal heroes) instituted pro-capitalist reforms. ... How did he throw the country into economic turmoil? It's the socialist who preceded him, Allende, who did that. His economic policy did wonders for Chile. As for killing people, the only ones he killed were socialists/communists/leftists. If you weren't a communist/socialist/leftist you had nothing to worry about."

I'm going to go ahead and say protostar is a scary motherfucker. I mean, you can't argue against facts, which is exactly what he's presenting here. It's his views that scare me. It's ok that pinochet brutally murdered men, women, and children because they were or were related to communists/socialists/leftists? He's your personal hero?

Jesus holy fucking christ on a crutch... where do these people come from?


this is protostar?

wait wait wait, this is getting even better.

[Edited on January 29, 2006 at 7:06 PM. Reason : .]

1/29/2006 7:05:07 PM

genocide

Rwanda happened in 1994, while we were so busy worried about Kurt Cobain's suicide


hunger & poverty won't be solved for a long time, neither will the healthcare issue--too subjective anyways


but genocide can be prevented

1/29/2006 8:22:18 PM

honestly the only real threat to society is jews

fyi...

1/29/2006 8:30:17 PM

do socialist reforms always fail? hardly. if you can throw pinochet out there, i can present to you the Sandinista party of Nicaragua. They seized power in 1979 and due to their economic reforms, Nicaragua's GDP grew around 7% a year from '79 until 1983, as the rest of Latin America experienced negative growth. the growth only ended when Reagan-backed contra rebels began destroying the country's infrastructure and blockading the ports. the US suspected them of receiving heavy arms from the Soviets, a claim which was proven to have been fabricated by the CIA years later during Iran-Contra (they did get stuff from Cuba, but thats beside the point).

so, you dont know what youre talking about.

1/29/2006 8:55:22 PM

Actually I do know what I'm talking about. 7% is pathetic compared to Pinochet's Chile GDP growth of 35% from 1960 to 1980. And I'm glad Reagan (another hero of mine) backed the contras. Socialism must be eradicated from this planet at all costs. I'm glad Reagan had the backbone and wisdom to see this, and as such did the right thing.

1/29/2006 9:08:29 PM

[Edited on January 29, 2006 at 9:10 PM. Reason : ..]

1/29/2006 9:09:25 PM

thats 7% a year, btw, so 28% over 4 years.

and i dont give a fuck what your political beliefs are, as a person youre a douchebag. i guess you want me killed, huh?

you pretty much said its ok to fabricate reasons to attack people you dont like...so i guess you support the current war and bush, right?

and i hate to be cliche, but hitler, germany did pretty well economically under him once he had his opponents out of the way...foreign investments were doing pretty well till that little invasion.

[Edited on January 29, 2006 at 9:21 PM. Reason : .]

1/29/2006 9:14:57 PM

look if deficets are your thing, then vote republican

1/29/2006 9:36:27 PM

Fabricate reasons? Socialism is destroying this country. It has placed corporations out of the accountability of the American people. It breeds dependence and punished the successful with more taxes. People bitch and moan about Walmart, not realizing that the problem lies with the government not with the corporation. Companies simply take advantage of the opportunities available to them. Take away the subsidies, welfare, and regulations and corporations will bow before the American people and not the government.

Quote :

" i guess you want me killed, huh?"

Not really. I would really rather your views be relegated to a tiny, tiny minority. Pinochet had one way of dealing with the socialists/communists and while brutal, it was effective. Though his ways may have been brutal, Pinochet was Pro-capitalist and anti-socalist/communist and thats ALWAYS good.

1/29/2006 10:00:10 PM

Quote :

"look if deficets are your thing, then vote republican"

Or Democrat, it doesn't really matter at this point. Hopefully the Republican party will shake the corporate socialists/theocratic social conservatives off and return to the glorious days of fiscal conservatism.

1/29/2006 10:03:45 PM

aha, you actually responded to that comment about having me killed

you big L Libertarians are great

ps: part of the humor here is that im more of a radical centrist

1/29/2006 10:19:20 PM

Quote :

"you big L Libertarians are great"

Why do you insult Libertarians that way! Dear God! Why are Libertarians hated so?!?!

How could you call someone in favor of having the government execute citizens for their beliefs a "Libertarian"!?!? "Free Minds and Free Markets," remember?

1/29/2006 10:51:05 PM

^he called himself that i believe

maybe he should go take over his own 3rd world country and institue his own Pinochet-esque policies. that shit wont fly here.

[Edited on January 29, 2006 at 10:54 PM. Reason : .]

1/29/2006 10:52:54 PM

I looked it up in my libertarian handbook.. and yep..you can't kill someone for their beliefs. It's official.

1/29/2006 10:53:50 PM

Quote :

"Socialism is destroying this country. It has placed corporations out of the accountability of the American people."

AAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHHAHA

IT'S SOCIALISM, YOU SEE, THAT HAS PLACED CORPORATIONS OUT OF ACCOUNTABILITY - EVEN THOUGH THERE'S NOBODY ANYTHING LIKE A SOCIALIST ANYWHERE IN THE GOVERNMENT.

I SEE.

1/29/2006 11:31:11 PM

this guy could have chosen any number of former world leaders as a hero. Margaret Thatcher, Deng Xiaoping, Calvin Coolidge, Silvio Berlusconi, the list goes on...

AND HE CHOOSES A BLOODY SOUTH AMERICAN DICTATOR

1/29/2006 11:58:34 PM

FTR, I donot believe I said I actually supported what Pinochet did, but just commented on it's effectiveness.

Quote :

"IT'S SOCIALISM, YOU SEE, THAT HAS PLACED CORPORATIONS OUT OF ACCOUNTABILITY - EVEN THOUGH THERE'S NOBODY ANYTHING LIKE A SOCIALIST ANYWHERE IN THE GOVERNMENT. I SEE."

The entire federal government is filled with socialists, on BOTH sides. You have GWB, the so called "conservative", preaching about "saving" social security when he should be working to get rid of it altogether. The Republicans bitch and moan about the "liberals" but have been in control of Congress for the last five years and have done nothing except bitch and moan. At least Kerry was pretty much an admitted socialist with his hippy, dippy, utopian social healthcare program. Bush along with most of the Republicans are corporate socialists, giving welfare and bail outs to corporations.

1/30/2006 12:11:22 AM

^ And may he rot in hell (the dictator, mostly).

Pinochet was not the first South American nation to have a capitalist revolution, but he was the last for almost a decade. Pinochet set back the cause of liberty by a decade if not more by convincing the world that "murderous dictator" and "capitalism" went together. If I was a conspiracy theorist, I'd bet the Soviet Union planted Pinochet to discredit the west.

Quote :

"IT'S SOCIALISM, YOU SEE, THAT HAS PLACED CORPORATIONS OUT OF ACCOUNTABILITY - EVEN THOUGH THERE'S NOBODY ANYTHING LIKE A SOCIALIST ANYWHERE IN THE GOVERNMENT."

I dunno, at the last libertarian meeting I attended the discussion was whether or not "socialist" was too lenient a word to describe George Bush.

Quote :

"I looked it up in my libertarian handbook.. and yep..you can't kill someone for their beliefs. It's official."

My handbook says I must refuse to trade with and resist coersion from "socialists, communists, statists, democrats, republicans, etc."

[Edited on January 30, 2006 at 12:24 AM. Reason : .,.]

1/30/2006 12:21:56 AM

If businesses were left to run rampant in the pure capitalist dreamland that you envision, they would just replace the gov. as the socialist teat of society. Just like you support genocide casually in the pursuit of capitalism, some business would harbor the same kind of unethical (to put it lightly) beliefs, and royally screw people over. The gov. is in place, among other things, to prevent this.

Further, societies naturally will gravitate towards some socialism. It's impossible to eradicate (like religion), and also foolish. The best thing is to find a stable, sustainable ratio of capitalist freedom and socialism (which hasn't been done yet in any gov. AFAIK). It's idiotic though to believe that socialism has absolutely no place in society, and socialists should be killed.

^Pinochet was backed by the CIA. It would be an odd conspiracy for the CIA backed coup to also be backed by the russians, during the thick of the Cold War.

[Edited on January 30, 2006 at 12:27 AM. Reason : ]

1/30/2006 12:26:32 AM

^^woah, who the hell will we trade with when protostar stages his bloody, one-man coup?

1/30/2006 12:37:23 AM

Quote :

"If businesses were left to run rampant in the pure capitalist dreamland that you envision, they would just replace the gov. as the socialist teat of society. Just like you support genocide casually in the pursuit of capitalism, some business would harbor the same kind of unethical (to put it lightly) beliefs, and royally screw people over. The gov. is in place, among other things, to prevent this."

But the government doesn't prevent this, as evident today. Corporations that have horrible business models are not allowed to die, and are kept alive by OUR tax dollars. Billions of dollars in subsidies are given to certain industries which is ANTI-CAPITALIST and pro-socialists. People complain about Walmart, but Walmart is using the government that is supposed to be serving us, WeThePeople, to serve themselves.

Quote :

"Further, societies naturally will gravitate towards some socialism. It's impossible to eradicate (like religion), and also foolish. The best thing is to find a stable, sustainable ratio of capitalist freedom and socialism (which hasn't been done yet in any gov. AFAIK). It's idiotic though to believe that socialism has absolutely no place in society, and socialists should be killed."

There is no place for socialism. Anytime the government attempts to regulate the economy, it fucks everything up. Look at the prices controls Carter instituted on gas. Shortages resulted. And now you have the same socialists who supported it then, crying for price controls again now. Government has no place regulating the economy whatsoever.

1/30/2006 12:41:27 AM

Quote :

"^^woah, who the hell will we trade with when protostar stages his bloody, one-man coup?"

Aah, comeon. I said Pinochet's policies were effective. That is all. I primarily support him for pro-capitalist, anti-socialist economic policies.

1/30/2006 12:42:44 AM

moron, was that directed at me or protostar?

And the ideal societal-framework exists in the US constitution, libertarians would say. You must remember, libertarian != anarcho-capitalist. We enjoy electing city/county/state/federal officials. We just wish they were not above the law once elected.

Personally, I fully recognize the need for societal planning. As laid out in the federalist system, nearly unlimited totalitarian power existed at the local level. If the mayor/city council believed your corporation was polluting the water supply, you fixed it or were shut down. If the people believed the rules were too strick, they'd vote the bums out.

The current system is untennable because #1: local government has been decimated by beurocracy. If you have a problem, telling the mayor about it solves nothing because he has very little control over the departments below him. As local issues go, this one varies. Some cities have retained the classical model, others have not. It used to be a mayor could fire any city employee without cause, nowadays most managers/employees are not appointed but promoted through the system in an effort to eliminate political machines. It worked, city-based political machines are rare nowadays, but so is good local governance because the people actually running the city have very little allegiance to the elected parties.
#2: state/federal government, where all the power rests nowadays, is so far from the electors that unforseen consequences of governmental action go unnoticed, unreported, and undealt-with until they become a crises.

[Edited on January 30, 2006 at 12:48 AM. Reason : ^ ^^ ^^^ etc]

1/30/2006 12:43:28 AM

Quote :

"But the government doesn't prevent this, as evident today. Corporations that have horrible business models are not allowed to die, and are kept alive by OUR tax dollars. Billions of dollars in subsidies are given to certain industries which is ANTI-CAPITALIST and pro-socialists. People complain about Walmart, but Walmart is using the government that is supposed to be serving us, WeThePeople, to serve themselves. "

I agree with all of that.

Quote :

"There is no place for socialism. Anytime the government attempts to regulate the economy, it fucks everything up. Look at the prices controls Carter instituted on gas. Shortages resulted. And now you have the same socialists who supported it then, crying for price controls again now. Government has no place regulating the economy whatsoever."

Okay, I think we are thinking of socialism as 2 different things. You are looking at more of the economic aspects, and i'm thinking more of the social aspects. Corporate Welfare (which is what you seem to be referring to) IS screwed up. But, corporate welfare is also born of capitalism. The same business men who utilize a capitalist structure to the fullest are the same people who have enough money to become successful politicians, and enact destructive, overly pervasive corporate welfare policies.


[Edited on January 30, 2006 at 12:56 AM. Reason : ^ only the part below the "^" was directed at you. I agree with all of that too ^]

1/30/2006 12:54:49 AM

^^ I think it would be ideal if federal taxes were cut significantly, to be replaced with people donating to local gov. to help their local citizens. People are really stingy and greedy, but if people could donate regularly like they did after Katrina and the South Asian tsunamis, in place of expansive federal taxes and programs, then it would cut a lot of bureaucracy, while being more effective and efficient than gov. run programs.

1/30/2006 12:59:41 AM

Quote :

"The same business men who utilize a capitalist structure to the fullest are the same people who have enough money to become successful politicians, and enact destructive, overly pervasive corporate welfare policies."

Yep. No one despises the free market more than business men. They would MUCH rather use government to wreck the system in their favor than risk losing everything to competition. This, however, is not a new fact, nor is it all that unexpected. Libertarians have speeches by George Washington extolling the virtues of just "saying no" to such business men, for the good of the nation.

I think Cato ran a "Just Say No" add campaign in Washington DC for the benefit of Congressmen.

If you remember, the Tea Act from England was an example of capitalist driven socialism (grant us a monopoly in the colonies and we'll refinance the national debt). We fought a revolution against such parliamentary antics and it stuck for 150 years until some screw-ball idiot Keynesian economists convinced congress that "saying yes makes the economy work better!" Suddenly granting favors to your friends in industry was no longer taboo, end of story.

Congress can do a really good job of self-censorship, thanks to "group-think" and "tradition." During most of our history, both parties agreed deficits and high-taxes were not just bad but a sign of poor governance and might lose you your seat (regardless of how true it was). Thanks to the two-party system, people who believed spending was good were not represented in government at the Federal Level. Nowadays, it is the reverse. Both parties agree the more you get to spend the better you are "looking after your constituency" and will retain your seat (again, regardless of how true it is). Those of us who believe high spending is a sign of poor governance go unrepresented in government.

[Edited on January 30, 2006 at 1:17 AM. Reason : .,.]

1/30/2006 1:13:01 AM

Were you being sarcastic at any point in that post?

If not, I have nothing to say.

1/30/2006 1:24:21 AM

1) Several people have mentioned hunger since I last stuck my head in here and made the point that all modern famine, to my knowledge, is the result of dictatorship, tyranny, or international situations caused by the same.
2) I can say the same for genocide, which has also been mentioned.
3) Genocide/purges/tyrannical measures are not a viable solution for any political problem.

1/30/2006 3:08:55 AM