^^Immigration isnt required for multicultural learning, I will agree with you there. But would wake county schools be teaching spanish to little kids if NC's hispanic population hadnt jumped 300% from 90-00? Maybe, but I doubt it.

I think all of us would agree that a huge influx of new immigrants would be a serious strain. But I dont think that is gonna happen no matter what.
It seems worthwile to point out that supply of immigrants being larger than the demand in jobs would most likely lead to a decrease in wages, more likely to hurt "americans" and immigrants who were earning more than the minimum because of experience.

3/26/2006 10:01:18 PM

Quote :

"I said what does it do for the country(socially)?"

Same thing it has always done, diversity and ethnic "strife" while we learn to get along with each other. Ultimately, America has had an immigrant culture and did prosper under just the circumstances being discussed here.

Quote :

"Consider social welfare systems."

I did, and concluded they were a bad idea in the first place, regardless of whether people are emigrating or immigrating.

Quote :

"i find it comical that a comparison is drawn with China in LoneSnark's post"

Why? We are discussing what might happen if America was flooded with impoverished relocated humans, might it not be relevant to see what happened when it occured elsewhere?

If you are suggesting that Chinese don't count, then I guess we have to go back to New York in the 19th century. I wanted a more modern example, so I went to China. Of course, Navada circa 2005 would work, so would Nova Scotia circa 2006, but both of these examples were non-poverty striken immigrants.

3/27/2006 12:41:19 AM

NAVADA (SIC)

3/27/2006 12:53:55 AM

Outstanding comparison with China being a bordering country and all. And nearly ALL their citizens wanting to re-locate to the U.S. via border. That's terrible dude, and actually a weak comparison.

Quote :

"Same thing it has always done, diversity and ethnic "strife" while we learn to get along with each other."

Nothing new. What else can they bring to the table. Most of them are uneducated, ultimately the bad will out weigh the good and :
a sense of community and nationality will be lost
scarce resources will dwindle

The immigrants that are already here have, or, are in the process of filling to socio-economic gaps that are possible. The overflow is what will kill us.

Like someone mentioned earlier, it has to be at a balance or it will just be one big catastrophe. They can just wait and come in legally so it can be regulated. Or they can just focus on rebuilding their own country(honestly, i dont think they're trying). It seems as if they have this underlying attitude towards their country. The U.S has to work out something with the Mexican gov on this issue.

3/27/2006 1:10:15 AM

Quote :

"As for the claim that immigrants cost more, its just plain wrong. over the long term immigrants pay more in taxes than they "cost". and if they are illegal what is the government paying for? healthcare? yeah right."

RevoltNow, you need to do your homework. Virtually all poor people cost more to the government then they pay in taxes. Most illegal immigrants are poor (and they don't pay their income taxes, either). These are indisputable facts. How you could argue against them is beyond me.

It is also painfully obvious that you don't realize that illegal immigrants benifit from federal as well as local social services. Once again, do a little research.

Health care, education, welfare, you name it, illegal immigrants are using it. Not to mention they put a strain on our infrastructure, such as increased (and uninsured) traffic and overcrowded prisons.

I'm not saying this is wrong. It would be inhumane to deny critical health care to anyone in this country, or deny them the right to an education. I am saying that in the short term, they do put a strain on our government to accomodate for them. Unrestrained immigration would be very difficult to deal with. It's no wonder that Arizona and New Mexico have declared a state of emergency.


[Edited on March 27, 2006 at 1:57 AM. Reason : 2]

3/27/2006 1:53:59 AM

My opinion on this matter is well-known or at least oft-stated, so I won't bother to launch into it again...but I did feel it was necessary for a Republican to show his solidarity with immigrants.

The opponents of freedom will either roast in hell or die in the revolution (or both) when the time comes, so I can afford to be at least a little bit patient.

3/27/2006 2:05:08 AM

labor protectionism!

3/27/2006 3:28:49 AM

^^if illegal immigrants found a way to not pay taxes, they need to show some americans how to do that, cause i'm sure there are some that wouldn't want to either. they do pay taxes, they are given an identification number by the irs just so they can file for taxes. they aren't eligible for social security/medicaid, so they're actually paying more taxes than legals.

3/27/2006 9:00:49 AM

Quote :

"The immigrants that are already here have, or, are in the process of filling to socio-economic gaps that are possible. The overflow is what will kill us."

there are so many economic falacies in this statement, I just don't know what to say. It is hard for people to fathom, but the number of jobs in a free economy is determined by the number of workers. Import more workers, you get more jobs. It is a complex interaction which brings this about, but a historical study of the United States has determined that the level of employment is 90+% correlated with the number of people seeking a job, having little to no correlation with the rate of population growth.

Sometimes unemployment is high, sometimes it is low, the rate the population is growing has never been shown to have an impact of statistical significance.

http://www.brookesnews.com/043008immigration.html

Quote :

"Health care, education, welfare, you name it, illegal immigrants are using it."

As stated before, I couldn't agree more. But the problem with illegal immigrants is that they are illegal. Make them all legal citizens and every single problem goes away or simply averages out.

As mentioned in the link above, massive immigration does not inherently breed unemployment, nor does it inherently breed lower wages. While it may be true that the new immigrants will have low wages due to their low skill and education, it does not follow that even the average wage will fall. "If capital accumulation expands at a rate where it exceeds the population's ability to maximise its income, i.e., the population level is suboptimal, then increasing the population through immigration will actually raise total incomes by allowing the capital structure to be more fully utilised" (link above).

3/27/2006 10:20:05 AM

It's a simple matter of business. The Mexicans have labor to sell and we Americans are eager to buy it. Governments can try to stand in the way of this market, but it will fail...just as prohibition failed to curtail the market for liquor. We can't keep illegal drugs out anymore than we can illegal labor.

If we want to keep up the facade that we are a country of laws and not mobs, we had better quickly find a way to change the status of the 11 million illegals so that they can stay (which they will anyway) and become assimilated into the country. Making this 'crime' more serious by calling it a felony will only cheapen the law further.

Instead of trying to keep out all Mexicans, we should be working on attracting only the hard-working ones. We do this by taking away the welfare state that attracts deadbeats. We should set up "Ellis Island II" - to screen them for terrorists, deadbeats, health risks etc.

Forcibly limiting immigration doesn't mean our country cannot accept an influx of hard-working people. It means our welfare state has gotten too far out of control.

3/27/2006 11:11:36 AM

^^I just love how you're bringing all these social benefits to the table, just love it. To compliment your incoherent economic babble.

Fact is there is simply no economic reason to import foreign workers.

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/krikorian200401070923.asp


A really good review on the topic, covers some of the complexities on the issue.

Quote :

"Import more workers, you get more jobs"

Makes alot of sense. Since poor uneducated people can create jobs. What will be created is a low skilled labor market. Quality of work decreases along with innovation.

But I want to hear more social benefits from you, you tend to lack knowledge in that field. You gotta come with something more that just "diversity diversity", tell me something I haven't heard.

[Edited on March 27, 2006 at 11:32 AM. Reason : x]

3/27/2006 11:31:14 AM

Them folks gotta eat, their kids have to go to school, they will have to have necessities, they will eventually want something to spend their money on, some of them will want to save money, some of them will want to buy a house

so you've already created

food service jobs (in excess of the bottom-of-the-barrel jobs they take)
teacher positions
general positions at big box stores like walmart and niche markets (tienda mexicanas)
jobs in sectors that cater to how they spend their disposable incomes
bank jobs for individuals who can work with the immigrant population
an entire new industry of folks willing to loan money to individuals who are not here legally

3/27/2006 11:48:28 AM

Quote :

"WHO THE HELL IS GONNA PICK YOUR COTTON THEN, BOSSMAN???"

The machines that pick it now douchebag. Should stick with grapes, your point holds a little better.

And now the economics destroys your point:

If there is suddenly a shortage of workers in an industry, say grape picking or cotton picking, there is a contraction in the supply of that product. Price will increase in that product until an equilibrium quantity (no doubt somewhat lower) will be had where the new price sets equal the amount of the product people are willing to buy and the amount of product producers are willing to sell. This higher price is what is used to pay higher wages so that someone will be willing to pick the grapes/cotton. Its SIMPLE economics...wages will rise until someone will do it again. Its not like regular-born Americans won't take shit jobs, they just want more money to do so.

3/27/2006 11:49:10 AM

Quote :

"^^if illegal immigrants found a way to not pay taxes, they need to show some americans how to do that, cause i'm sure there are some that wouldn't want to either. they do pay taxes, they are given an identification number by the irs just so they can file for taxes. they aren't eligible for social security/medicaid, so they're actually paying more taxes than legals."

I'll tell you how not to pay taxes because I know a shit-ton of immigrants that do it. Its very simple. Contract labor! Yeah, go to your employer and tell him you want to be contract labor. Then, you waive rights to benefits, but you get paid pre-tax with no withholdings. Then, at the end of the year, you simply don't file a return. You see, so long as you never file a return and don't show up on the radar much--with voting, traffic tickets, or buying houses or insurance--you aren't going to get audited. The contract labor provision puts the responsibility for paying your taxes solely on you and so long as you don't get audited, you never pay taxes. I used to get paid by Contact Labor and I always paid my taxes, but its not that difficult.

3/27/2006 11:54:02 AM

^ Just to add another way immigrants avoid taxes:

When filling out initial hire info, they claim a high number of dependents (commonly 10 or more). Since they are using a fake identity (usually a SSN of a deceased person), they don't have to file a return in the spring, and therefore never have to prove to the government that they actually have these dependents. Next year, new identity, new job, still no income taxes.

That is usually how it is done when employers can't do contract labor. At least when they do this, they have to pay for Social Security and Medicare; or mabe there's a way out of that, too. I don't scam the government, so I don't know.

3/27/2006 12:35:49 PM

how about this revolutionary idea. why don't we enforce the the law and arrest people who are illegal immigrants or people that help illegal immigrants, since it IS ILLEGAL, and make the process for gaining temporary work status and a legal citizenship more streamline. if it didn't take 11 years to become a citizen in this country i think more immigrants would immigrate legally. my beef is not with people immigrating to this country, it the people immigrating ILLEGALY!

3/27/2006 12:42:37 PM

Quote :

"require churches to check the legal status of parishioners before helping them"

Obviousely, god's love for all his children can be limited by an act of Congress.

Quote :

"I don't scam the government"

Keeping your hard-earned wages from a predetory expropriator that will only squander them on bullshit is a scam?

[Edited on March 27, 2006 at 12:44 PM. Reason : /]

3/27/2006 12:44:08 PM

^ If it were up to me, man, we wouldn't pay one tenth the taxes we do. I agree that it is mostly wasted on Bullshit. However, as a citizen of this country, I agree to live by the laws of the land. That doesn't mean I don't try to change them.

3/27/2006 12:55:58 PM

Why are we even bothering to discuss economic reasons? How about the simple fact that telling people, "No, this freedom and opportunity is just for us," is abominable?

3/27/2006 1:07:28 PM

^ Well, there is that.

3/27/2006 2:55:40 PM

hey, supposedly thats what the majority of americans support...

3/27/2006 3:20:05 PM

Quote :

"The opponents of freedom will either roast in hell or die in the revolution (or both) when the time comes, so I can afford to be at least a little bit patient."

So you're saying they're a bunch of jerks who'll be first against the wall when the revolution comes?

Btw, since when do Republicans talk about a revolution coming?

3/27/2006 3:42:13 PM

Since 1936, when FDR overthrew the Supreme Court and de-enshrined the constitution.

But ours isn't going to kill anyone, it's going to be one of those sudden but mellow revolutions where the people just wake up one day and decide not to file their 1040s again until congress promises to spend it wisely.

3/27/2006 4:16:53 PM

Quote :

"how about this revolutionary idea. why don't we enforce the the law and arrest people who are illegal immigrants or people that help illegal immigrants, since it IS ILLEGAL, and make the process for gaining temporary work status and a legal citizenship more streamline. if it didn't take 11 years to become a citizen in this country i think more immigrants would immigrate legally. my beef is not with people immigrating to this country, it the people immigrating ILLEGALY!"

This pretty much sums up my sentiments. I find it unfair that all these Mexicans are the dominant peoples that illegally enter the country simply because of their border with us. Millions of other people from all over the world would love to have that same opportunity to live in America, but the illegal immigrants are messing it all up for everyone else.

My mom is Filipino, which means I have ties to the Philippines. She would love to see most of her family make it over here. But of course, they're stuck in this stringent waiting list where it'll be upwards of ten years to get them over, and the only way to make it faster is to shell out the $Texas. Other people are trying to do it the right way, but immigration rules get tightened up even more because of terrorist issues and because officials are trying to compensate for all the illegal immigrants.

If the government could lock-down on illegal immigrants, and allow one million to enter the country legally per year, I could accept that. I am aware of their importance to the country, with their willingness to work and do the jobs that the typical American finds to be degrading and not worth the money. There are a lot of people to harbor a lot of racism towards foreigners because of the assumption that they shouldn't be here.

3/27/2006 4:23:24 PM

Prawn star. learn to read. key words....IN THE LONG TERM. meaning that over a person's entire life they will pay more in taxes if they are an immigrant. that doesnt mean over a year. that means over a life time.


Although immigrants are using our social services, prove to me that the budget problems are a result of immigration. prove to me that immigrants are the only reason are prisons are overcrowded. you wont be able to. those systems are fucked beyond belief, immigrants might put more of a strain but not a huge amount, because they are not the only poor people and they are not the only criminals. And i stand by my assertion that immigrants dont have health care and welfare. they may get treatment at a hospital but that is it. as for education, i never claimed they were not using the schools.

Should the labor laws be enforced? Absolutely, but is the problem there the immigration or the employer? If the immigrant knows that he must work somewhere to live and the employer knows he must meet certain conditions to LEGALLY hire someone, who do we punish when they are hired illegally? the immigrant or the employer? punishing all immigrants is probably the least american solution i can think of (and we cant let the terrorists win).

3/27/2006 6:31:47 PM

Quote :

"But ours isn't going to kill anyone, it's going to be one of those sudden but mellow revolutions where the people just wake up one day and decide not to file their 1040s again until congress promises to spend it wisely."

Hahaha...right. It'll take a tax increase of epic proportions before that happens.

They'd be better off filing fake 1040s that show an imaginary person owing a shit ton of money. That'd be a bigger wrench, and would be a lot more likely to happen.

3/27/2006 7:25:13 PM

Quote :

""require churches to check the legal status of parishioners before helping them""

fuuuuuck no. this is WHY there is seperation of church and state. government shouldn't have nothing to do with church. regardless.

3/27/2006 7:27:50 PM

I read "Si Se Puede" as "Yes I know yall can" until I realized the se was intended as reflexive.

3/27/2006 7:54:10 PM

Quote :

"And i stand by my assertion that immigrants dont have health care and welfare."

RevoltNow, you are wrong. Do some research because I'm tired of responding to your obvious ignorance on the issue.

from the CIS

Quote :

" Welfare and Self Employment. Given their higher rates of poverty and near poverty, it is not surprising that Table 6 also shows that households headed by immigrants make heavier use of welfare programs than do native households. Even though the 1996 welfare reform tried to curtail immigrant eligibility, many state governments opted to cover immigrants. In addition, immigrants often receive benefits on behalf of their U.S.-born children, who have welfare eligibility like any other U.S. citizen. Overall, about 26 percent of immigrant households use at least one major welfare program compared to 16 percent of native households. As for households headed by illegal aliens, 30 percent use one or more welfare programs. It should be pointed out that for illegals the high rate of welfare use mainly reflects heavy dependence on Medicaid among the U.S.-born children of illegal aliens. In terms of self employment, Table 6 shows that the two groups exhibited similar rates of entrepreneurship, with natives enjoying a slightly higher rate. "

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/back1204.html

[Edited on March 27, 2006 at 9:28 PM. Reason : 2]

3/27/2006 9:26:39 PM

Quote :

"But ours isn't going to kill anyone, it's going to be one of those sudden but mellow revolutions where the people just wake up one day and decide not to file their 1040s again until congress promises to spend it wisely."

I thought you were against civil disobedience? After all, the rules are the rules. If you don't like them, you can always change them democratically. Right?

3/27/2006 9:44:01 PM

"As for households headed by illegal aliens, 30 percent use one or more welfare programs. It should be pointed out that for illegals the high rate of welfare use mainly reflects heavy dependence on Medicaid among the U.S.-born children of illegal aliens. "


meaning the "illegals" using welfare are really american citizens.

3/28/2006 8:45:42 AM

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=ebc279cba6d9227d830187a5d1c3b530&rgn=div8&view=text&node=20:2.0.1.1.9.2.383.3&idno=20

§ 416.202 Who may get SSI benefits.
(b) You are a resident of the United States (§416.1603), and—

(1) A citizen or a national of the United States (§416.1610);

(2) An alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence in the United States (§416.1615);

(3) An alien permanently residing in the United States under color of law (§416.1618); or




Tell me where it says illegal immigrants can get welfare.

3/28/2006 8:50:14 AM

Quote :

"But ours isn't going to kill anyone, it's going to be one of those sudden but mellow revolutions where the people just wake up one day and decide not to file their 1040s again until congress promises to spend it wisely."

Tax refusal? That's your plan? Wow. Way to go there, Noam Chomsky.

Quote :

"I read "Si Se Puede" as "Yes I know yall can""

How the hell would that work to "y'all?" It's not plural...

3/28/2006 4:11:26 PM

hahaha i refuse to pay and my friends arnt paying either.

3/28/2006 4:50:49 PM

RevoltNow thanks for the resources.

this is my issue with illegal immigration. it all comes down to risk verses reward. we have made it very easy in the US for illegals to get in and stay under the radar. for them it's a low risk high gain situation. plus if they come over here and have a kid then boom, they have a US citizen that can now collect welfare, while the parents work for money under the table and pay zero taxes. i have an issue with people being a drain on society without contributing. so what's the solution? we need to make illegal immigration high risk. this meaning if you get caught you will go to jail or be deported. also we have to keep employers from hiring illegal immigrants. they should be heavily fined if caught. if the risk is too high and the employers aren't hiring then the number of illegal immigrants will decline. in addition, like i mentioned before, we need to also streamline the process for legal residence and citizenship so that people will be encouraged to immigrate legally instead of illegally.

3/28/2006 4:55:30 PM

Quote :

"Why are we even bothering to discuss economic reasons? How about the simple fact that telling people, "No, this freedom and opportunity is just for us," is abominable?"

Tell me that next time I sneak into your place and take your TV with me

3/28/2006 6:13:08 PM

If you steal my fucking television you're a dead man. It's the only thing that makes my weeknights bearable.

3/28/2006 6:32:01 PM

so now being pro immigration means being anti property rights.......

3/28/2006 6:34:20 PM

I'm not against immigration, I'm against illegal immigration.

If I have to pay higher taxes so that the school systems can hire bi-lingual educators, so illegal immigrants can live here tax free, get a free education, can get free healthcare from a community clinic payed for with my tax money.. i can go on and on...

I have no problem with you being here legally and paying the same taxes that ALL of us participating in the great American dream are.

Otherwise, gtfo. If you've got such strong 'Mexican' pride, then why the fuck are you here? Stay in your own country and make it better.

We can get all tough and shit on immigration when arabs blow up two towers, but it doesn't apply to everyone? Double fucking standard.

3/28/2006 6:38:28 PM

except we arent tough on immigration when it comes to arabs. remember that the guys behind 9/11 were here legally. also, go look at the reports about how easy it is to sneak people or guns or bombs or whatever into this country. we are failing to protect ourselves, and security is not an issue of immigration vs no immigration

Quote :

" Undercover probe targets security Undercover investigators slipped radioactive material -- enough to make two small "dirty bombs" -- across U.S. borders in Texas and Washington state in a test last year of security at American points of entry. Radiation alarms at the unidentified sites detected the small amounts of cesium-137, a nuclear material used in industrial gauges. But U.S. customs agents permitted the investigators to enter the United States because they were tricked with counterfeit documents. The Bush administration said yesterday that within 45 days, it will give U.S. Customs and Border Protection agents the tools they need to verify such documents in the future. The Government Accountability Office's report said detection equipment used by U.S. customs agents to screen people, vehicles and cargo for radioactive substances appeared to work as designed. But the investigation, carried out simultaneously at both border crossings in December 2005, also identified potential security holes terrorists might be able to exploit to sneak nuclear materials into the United States.""

3/28/2006 6:50:20 PM

if its so easy to get here legally, then why aren't the beaners doing that?

Ok, to be fair, I'll rephrase. If we're gonna pretend that we're gonna get tougher on immigration, lets pretend on everyone, not just about those from across the oceans.

3/28/2006 6:56:11 PM

ill accept the if we are gonna pretend we should pretend equally.

funny side note
http://mediamatters.org/items/200603280009

rush makes me cry.

3/28/2006 7:01:55 PM

I mean, yeah he does make me cry.

I'll be the first person to say that MOST of the 'latino' (I can't prove they were mexican, or here illegally, but damnit they spoke spanish and looked mighty south of the border) people I've worked with have been really hard workers.

There have been a few who have seemed extremely lazy, but in terms of what they're doing, it's impressive work.

I just wish that they were all paying their share of taxes, and making the same effort to learn english as they do to work for their $$.

3/28/2006 7:14:05 PM

shoot first, ask questions later

3/28/2006 7:23:45 PM

^^Rush was saying that they are unwilling to work in Mexico, not that they are unwilling to work here.

He is trying to take Vicente Fox's perspective in the quoted statement.

Media Matters highlighted the quote but not the context.

[Edited on March 28, 2006 at 7:37 PM. Reason : 2]

3/28/2006 7:34:46 PM

we should just save all the trouble and annex mexico. That way, they're in the US already, they don't have to leave, they're all citizens, we don't have to build a wall... or at least we can build a smaller wall next to belieze!



/sarcasm

3/28/2006 7:39:19 PM

Quote :

"I'm not against immigration, I'm against illegal immigration. If I have to pay higher taxes so that the school systems can hire bi-lingual educators, so illegal immigrants can live here tax free, get a free education, can get free healthcare from a community clinic payed for with my tax money.. i can go on and on... "

almost all illegal aliens actually pay state and federal taxes and contribute towards social security-they just dont get a refund check like the rest of us do or collect on social security. working minimum wage jobs, taxes are taken out automatically and they obviously dont earn enough to owe the government on tax day, so there goes your whole 'they live here tax free' argument.

the real issue here is border control and the US's inability to part with an abundance of cheap labor thats helping to fuel our economy

3/28/2006 8:04:59 PM

^wrong again. Alot of illegal immigrants do a ton of sub-contracting work. Alot of this work is "under the table". This is how alot of state/federal taxes are avoided. The contractor get the job, covers all the legalities,then hire/sub the work out to cheap labor. In return the contractor profits heavily. Do your research kiddo.

A huge portion of illegal immigrants work on construction forces. Your argument is partially true for the ones who work for stores/etc

[Edited on March 28, 2006 at 8:42 PM. Reason : x]

3/28/2006 8:36:48 PM

Have you people ever heard of a W-4 form? Yeah, immigrants have. And they claim about 57 dependants. Which is usually pretty accurate.

3/28/2006 8:54:09 PM

so the mexican government is shipping illegal immigrants into america?

im not big into conspiracy theories. thanks though.

3/28/2006 9:35:35 PM