Quote :

"she considered herself to be a very liberal Democrat, and was very much in favor of the redistribution of wealth. "

99% of Americans are in favor of redistribution of wealth

3/28/2006 2:07:55 PM

Quote :

"If every single person that had good enough grades pursued it correctly, they could all get full scholarships (or at least enough that they would only need a part time job to pay off the rest)?"

every single poverty-stricken person, yea.

3/28/2006 2:11:22 PM

And they could all get enough money to go to an Ivy League school?

[Edited on March 28, 2006 at 2:13 PM. Reason : uc]

3/28/2006 2:13:13 PM

Quote :

"problem is, most blue-collars can't handle that thar book-larnin"

What you don't seem to understand is that the situation that they are born into prevents many of them doing such. It's not that they are lazy, it's not that they like doing menial work, both of those are idiotic excuses. The reason they can't get into school, etc. is due to the socioeconomic situation they were born into.

3/28/2006 2:15:15 PM

Quote :

"And they could all get enough money to go to an Ivy League school?"

troll

Quote :

"What you don't seem to understand is that the situation that they are born into prevents many of them doing such. It's not that they are lazy, it's not that they like doing menial work, both of those are idiotic excuses. The reason they can't get into school, etc. is due to the socioeconomic situation they were born into."

I disagree with you. There are plenty of people who've extricated themselves from poverty by simply studying hard and making good choices.

[Edited on March 28, 2006 at 2:37 PM. Reason : s]

3/28/2006 2:36:24 PM

How is that a troll? Would you not agree that people graduating from an ivy league school are more likely to get a much higher paying job, pretty much regardless of grades?

3/28/2006 2:39:01 PM

Quote :

"I disagree with you. There are plenty of people who've extricated themselves from poverty by simply studying hard and making good choices. "

those are called statistical outliers

3/28/2006 2:39:43 PM

But Kris' theory of life doesn't predict such "statistical outliers"

Hell, it doesn't even allow for them. We are all robots, programmed. Nothing we ever did was ever unexpected.

3/28/2006 2:44:37 PM

Quote :

"those are called statistical outliers"

the truly poverty-stricken themselves are statistical outliers in our society.

3/28/2006 2:52:38 PM

30 million statistical outliers

3/28/2006 2:54:12 PM

Quote :

"truly poverty-stricken"

color tv, house, running water, and obesity from eating so much food doesn't count.

3/28/2006 3:40:52 PM

ha, now i can eat at Mcdonalds for cheaper than I do now but I would gain weight like a mutta fucka.

also, I can buy a color tv for less than 100 bucks or have one given to me and running water is given to people by the government in 99.9% of the country.

also the whole house size arguement is retarded if you're going to bring that up.

we dont live in the freakin desert of Africa we live in the USA. But in all honestly if everyone was smart and did calculus than the jobs requiring calculus would be like picking fruit.

3/28/2006 4:49:04 PM

people in african desert truly can not afford to study - if they stop searching for water/food then they'll die

pretty much everyone here could take at least one course at a community college or high school while holding down another job.

3/28/2006 5:59:21 PM

the majority of poor people in america work multiple jobs.

3/28/2006 6:00:05 PM

yea no shit

first question: why don't they have a high school education? because they slacked off.
second question: why don't they take a single course at a community college? because they would rather work that extra part-time job.

3/28/2006 6:01:27 PM

Quote :

"first question: why don't they have a high school education? because they slacked off. second question: why don't they take a single course at a community college? because they would rather work that extra part-time job."

Every poor person does not have a high school diploma. You are right. Holy shit, you are the most intelligent person in the world.

Secondly, if you are struggling to pay rent and buy food, would you take a second job? or go to community college? Jesus Christ you are arrogant.

3/28/2006 6:03:23 PM

why not make this really messy and throw in genetics.

3/28/2006 6:21:25 PM

Quote :

"the majority of poor people in america work multiple jobs."

Yea, maybe two part-time jobs, each one only 10 hours a week. Adults living in poverty worked an average of 1,017 hours in 2001, or an average of just under 20 hours a week. How many jobs can we be working if, collectively, we only average 20 hours a week?

Non-poor adults averaged 2,151 hours a year, or 41.36 hours a week (no vacation?)

http://www.brookings.edu/es/wrb/publications/pb/pb28.pdf

It seems to me, the vast majority of the poor in this country are poor because they are unemployed or only working part-time. This doesn't mean they are lazy, maybe there just aren't enough low-skilled jobs or maybe they cannot reach them.

3/28/2006 9:04:56 PM

Yeah, stop with this whole, "all poor people are victims" garbage.

This is the land of opportunity, and some people just choose not to take advantage of that opportunity. In America especially, you reap what you sow, and people who have made bad choices and suffered from a lack of motivation throughout their life often end up in poverty.

Government should take care of the disabled, poor children and others who are unable to work. But those able-bodied people who have never taken advantage of the multitude of opportunities around them don't deserve taxpayer subsidies or other assistance.

3/28/2006 9:13:53 PM

IT is the land of opportunity, if you are white rich and protestant.

3/28/2006 9:19:06 PM

Or if you're a hard-working immigrant looking for a decent job with a wage you can live on.

3/28/2006 9:44:58 PM

Quote :

"There are plenty of people who've extricated themselves from poverty by simply studying hard and making good choices."

No, they got there because their circumstances caused them to. Something in their life that they had no control over gave them the ability to work hard and make good choices, something like their natural born intellegence, their parents, or someone else they met.

Quote :

"But Kris' theory of life doesn't predict such "statistical outliers""

Sure it does, you obviously don't understand what that term means. There are different circumstances, certain ones allow for success, others don't. Statistically speaking, poor people have a smaller chance to be given a circumstance that causes success, there are outliers to this that are given a circumstance tha causes them to succed.

3/28/2006 11:47:55 PM

So, what is one "circumstance that causes success" that we can give to everyone? If it isn't that expensive, I'd be interested in hearing it.

3/29/2006 12:07:10 AM

you ever considered the problem that by espousing your deterministic philosophy and then redistributing wealth based on that philosophy, you're changing the circumstances (potentially negatively) for everyone including those who are now succeeding and driving our economy forward.

3/29/2006 12:07:17 AM

Quote :

"So, what is one "circumstance that causes success" that we can give to everyone?"

That's an extremely difficult question to answer. We do have some partial answers. Education tends to have a high correltaion to success, as does wealth of the family, but I can't assume these to be the only causes for success, in fact it would be incorrect to assume them as causes at all. This doesn't change the fact that education and success statistically tend to go hand in hand.

Quote :

"you ever considered the problem that by espousing your deterministic philosophy and then redistributing wealth based on that philosophy, you're changing the circumstances (potentially negatively) for everyone including those who are now succeeding and driving our economy forward."

That's a problem surrounding any form of reform. However, this isn't an excuse to do nothing, because by doing nothing you'll be changing the circumstances just the same.

In the words of FDR:
"It is common sense to take a method and try it. If it fails, admit it frankly and try another. But above all, try something."

3/29/2006 12:39:59 AM

Quote :

"Yeah, stop with this whole, "all poor people are victims" garbage"

yeah we can also stop with this "every poor person is a lazy asshole who should go get a real job or education."

[Edited on March 29, 2006 at 8:44 AM. Reason : i dont think anyone is arguing in defense of poor ppl who actually are lazy]

3/29/2006 8:44:07 AM

ahhhh ze circle of social economics

3/29/2006 9:26:55 AM

Quote :

""It is common sense to take a method and try it. If it fails, admit it frankly and try another. But above all, try something.""

capitalism has pwned socialism every time in the past 150 years

3/29/2006 10:00:02 AM

Quote :

"It is common sense to take a method and try it. If it fails, admit it frankly and try another. But above all, try something."

Well, actively doing nothing is something. Perhaps the time has come to try letting people find their own way?

This philosophy isn't doing nothing, it requires a radical shift in governmental policy. As most mixed systems today are dysfunctional, and most free systems appear to ellicit the most satisfaction, we should try making our mixed systems into free systems.

Like Kris said, lets experiment! See what people do!

3/29/2006 10:36:57 AM

Poor people are simply lazy. Their children just happen to be lazy, too. Strange coincidence.

Stop trolling

3/29/2006 11:32:23 AM

its not a coincidence at all. it would follow that a child would pick up a majority of his or her parent's qualities

3/29/2006 11:35:51 AM

Basically what it boils down to is that there are people like you, who make huge, mostly untrue generalizations about groups of people, such as the poor.

If nobody did that, there probably wouldnt be a problem, but because you choose to be ignorant, some people have to work towards a solution.

3/29/2006 11:47:22 AM

Quote :

"capitalism has pwned socialism every time in the past 150 years"

How ironic considering the the events surrounding the quote I referenced. The only reason mixed market capitalism has worked so well is because FDR used socialism to putty up the cracks and holes in capitalism.

And I fail to see how socialism in russia was a failure. It lead to the creation of a powerful empire that helped to save this world from falling into the clutches of facism. It helped to develop many of the technological advances our modern society is built upon. Saying the USSR was a failure is akin to saying that Rome or Greece was a failure. Their success under such extreme circuimstances is proof enough that given proper implementation that system is much more efficent than our current one, and europe is begining to realize this.

Quote :

"Well, actively doing nothing is something."

I know, I just said that in the previous post.

Quote :

"Perhaps the time has come to try letting people find their own way?"

We tried that, it didn't work very well. That's why government was one of man's earliest inventions.

Quote :

"As most mixed systems today are dysfunctional, and most free systems appear to ellicit the most satisfaction, we should try making our mixed systems into free systems."

Ironic agian considering the context of that quote. Do you two know nothing of FDR's presidency? Do you guys not understand what this quote refers to?

We had free markets for quite a while and they failed us. FDR was able to pick us right back up off our asses by instituting mixed markets, since then we've yet to have a depression, and you're compalining? We tried your system, it failed, that's why FDR fixed it by instituting income tax, minimium wage, child labor laws, and other measures meant to implement the new answer to free market capitalsm's failure, Keynesian mixed market economies.

Since these have been implemented, we have yet to have a depression, as keynesian economics have adjusted for every recession, and america has taken the economic crown from England. The only hiccup we've seen in the mixed market idea was stagflation, which I'd sure as hell rather deal with a bout of inflation than decade long depressions.

3/29/2006 12:39:58 PM

welcome to the pants party!

3/29/2006 1:05:04 PM

Quote :

"IT is the land of opportunity, if you are white rich and protestant."

Quote :

"This is an illusion. Everything you have and do was determined by circumstance."

I'm an athiest and in the lower middle economic class, yet I have every intention of being rich ten years from now. Where's that ambition come from?

3/29/2006 1:16:24 PM

social factors, society tells you to value success and you follow

3/29/2006 1:21:38 PM

Well, my friends and family all tell me to slow down and enjoy the simpler things in life, not to worry about the money so much. I'm the only person I know that doesn't want to eventually settle down behind a white picket fence with a family. And I'm not bucking the trend just for the hell of it. It's a level of ambition that doesn't fit in with any of the areas of my life.

So no, I don't follow.

Yeah, it might just be an outlying case, in which case my part of this discussion is finished because there's nothing more to say. But assume for the moment that it is not - then what would your explanation be?

3/29/2006 1:31:26 PM

Influences in what you do come from millions of places. What your parents tell you has relatively little impact on your life. You are conditioned much more by what you observe. It could be TV, it could be school, it could be anywhere else. Children learn their values and how to act in society by what the obvserve. This is why children with disfunctional childhoods tend to be socially disfunctional as well.

3/29/2006 1:37:14 PM

Quote :

"Ironic agian considering the context of that quote. Do you two know nothing of FDR's presidency? Do you guys not understand what this quote refers to?"

You were there, we discussed it at length, I found your arguments to be unconvincing, you did likewise I suspect.

The biggest hole in the whole "Capitalism failed in the 1930s" POV is the role the Federal Reserve played in creating the Great Depression. Before it, no great depression (lots of little recessions) after it, within two decades, a decade long depression the likes of which hadn't been seen since the black death.

If capitalism was fundamentally flawed, why didn't it fail at its height back in 1890? Why did it wait until the government was playing such a huge role in the economy to finally collapse?

3/29/2006 1:51:51 PM

^ So are you saying it's a bad thing when the government interferes with capitalism?

Like when this Republican White House gives Halliburton a no-bid contract in Iraq worth billions?

3/29/2006 3:37:21 PM

COPRORATIONS ARE PEOPEL TOOOO!!!!!!!

just more important ones.

3/29/2006 5:11:04 PM

Quote :

"is the role the Federal Reserve played in creating the Great Depression"

How it was created is only a minute problem, you should know that regardless of the system you prefer, capitalism will not be able to be kept in a glass jar. It's neccesary that it should robust enough to revive itself should it take a fall, and this is where classical economics fails and Keynesian mixed market shines.

Quote :

"If capitalism was fundamentally flawed, why didn't it fail at its height back in 1890?"

It didn't peak nearly as high as it did before the 1930 depression. And don't discount the 1893 depression, it was still a very serious depression, as were many of the others that occured before it.

And we did have many depressions before the federal reserve.

We simply didn't have a good way of dealing with them.

Quote :

"Why did it wait until the government was playing such a huge role in the economy to finally collapse?"

Coincedental. Depressions had happened MANY times before 1930, the 1930 one was especially bad for many other reasons, none of which have to do with the federal reserve.

3/29/2006 5:15:30 PM

Kris just hijacked this entire thread.

Kris always hijacks your stupid threads.

I'd like to think that by this point the soap box would know not to get trolled into a communism debate.

But every single time you guys bend over backwards to argue the same points.

Every

Single

Time.

3/29/2006 5:17:35 PM

this isn't really about communism, I tried to go that way, but no one really bit

now it's more about free market vs. mixed market

3/29/2006 5:30:45 PM

hey at least its a real debate

as opposed to debating the zionist talmudic illiad

3/29/2006 10:57:03 PM

Quote :

"IT is the land of opportunity, if you are white rich and protestant."

asian, indian, and arab immigrants and their children have done quite well in terms of increasing their wealth

asian and arabs have a higher median income in this country than whites

3/30/2006 1:02:05 AM

^Those that tend to come here are already considered well off.

3/30/2006 1:19:09 AM

3/31/2006 9:13:57 AM