clemens cheated too

that's why he didn't make my list

5/31/2006 1:32:38 PM

Quote :

"He's fucking 42 years old! MOst people don't have knees that can hold up like that over an entire career. Its a fact of life not a fact of shitty performance."

Quote :

"SB are naturally going ot go down over a career and a smart player will change his game to adapt what he is capable of... increasing strength is much easier than increasing speed."

Dude you're proving my point. Everything goes down in old age and with injuries. What happened/is happening with Bonds* is completely illogical without the aid of something helping him.

Quote :

"Actually, it does happen [get stronger in old age]."

Yet you have not found me A SINGLE instance in your incoherent rant.

Quote :

"What you also show is that Bonds hit the same number of homeruns per season the years before he supposedly started using steroids that he did in the years after.."

Are you blind. Please look at the graph again. He's hitting more after his freak season than his average.

Here's another graph. You fucking tell me what's goin on.






[Edited on May 31, 2006 at 1:39 PM. Reason : .]

5/31/2006 1:37:18 PM

gaylord perry shouldnt be in the hall because he has too many losses

Quote :

"BTW, steroids are not the issue"

yes they are you dumbass

^HEY WAIT A MINUTE, PUJOLS AND MANTLE AND REGGIE DIDNT HAVE FREAK SEASONS LATE IN THEIR CAREERS, YOU MAY BE ONTO SOMETHING

5/31/2006 1:40:17 PM

Quote :

"A) is discluded, cheating factor. He will never be the best player of anything. B) Maddux is a hell of a pitcher... but I wouldn't argue that he's even the best pitcher since I've been alive. The Rocket has to take the best pitcher since I've been alive award. God you're a fucking moron. C) same as B)"

A) Even if you stopped Bond's career at the point he started the steroid peak, he was still the best player of our generation. ANY baseball fan would know that.
B/C) It all depends on what you think makes the best pitcher. SOme people place high value on strikeouts, some on OBP, some on ERA, etc. Looking at raw number you have to say the Pedro Martinez is the best pitcher... he does lead pretty much every statistical category (ERA, K/9, K/BB, WHIP, OppBA, OppOBP, OppSLG, OppOPS) and if he continues his projected pattern he will be the best pitcher ever.

5/31/2006 1:42:57 PM

Quote :

"Even if you stopped Bond's career at the point he started the steroid peak, he was still the best player of our generation. ANY baseball fan would know that. "

Even if Hank Gathers hadn't died, he would've been the best basketball player of our generation. ANY basketball fan would know that hypothetical if if if if if if if what if what if bullshit

5/31/2006 1:51:30 PM

No he's not the best baseball player of our generation. He tainted that. He would've been great. A shoe-in for the hall of fame. He ruined it all because of his selfish desire.

And it's arguable who the greatest pitcher of our time is. Clemens/Martinez are certainly 1 and 2.

5/31/2006 1:51:40 PM

CLEMENS > MARTINEZ

5/31/2006 1:51:58 PM

I'm with you, but the Martinez fans certainly have a point.

5/31/2006 1:53:27 PM

i'm not a fan of either i just think clemens is one of the best pitchers of all time if not THE best

5/31/2006 1:55:41 PM

here's a great expose:

Quote :

"Number one is the Rocket. Roger Clemens has had a great career and he just doesn’t seem ready to quit anytime soon. With the way he’s pitching, he may go until he’s 50. He is the only active pitcher with 300 wins (although he’ll soon be joined by Greg Maddux) as well as the only active pitcher with 4000 strikeouts (although he’ll soon be joined by Johnson). He has been around the longest and he has been on top of the game for most of his career. He is also the only one of the four to win an in-season MVP award (as opposed to a World Series MVP). He is 3-0 with a 1.90 ERA in World Series play and has two World Series rings, as well as three league championship rings. However, of these four guys, he’s the worst in ERA (3.17) and tied for last in WHIP (1.18). So, Clemens is high quantity but low quality compared to the other three. Number two is Pedro Martinez. When people are asked historically which pitcher was the most dominant pitcher without a long career most people would say Sandy Koufax. But in a comparison side by side Martinez is even better at least by the numbers. Just look at this: Stat Martinez Koufax Win % .708 .655 ERA 2.62 2.76 K/9 innings 10.46 9.27 WHIP 1.02 1.11 As you can see, numerically Martinez is better than Koufax, but Koufax was a pitcher of another generation and really is out of place in this discussion. Of the big 4 that I have mentioned, Martinez has the lowest number of innings pitched, so I can’t rank him as the best pitcher in this era. Also against him is the fact he has never played in a World Series and in the playoffs he is just 2-3 with a 3.61 ERA. However during his career he has been so dominant, that I’d rank him one notch below Clemens at #2."

5/31/2006 1:58:00 PM

doesnt Cy Young have like 450 wins

5/31/2006 1:59:59 PM

yeah, that bitch will never be caught.

5/31/2006 2:00:46 PM

511 with a 20 win average and 36 win career high.

crazy stats.

5/31/2006 2:02:14 PM

Quote :

"Dude you're proving my point. Everything goes down in old age and with injuries. What happened/is happening with Bonds* is completely illogical without the aid of something helping him."

What are you talking about? SB going down: not illogical, HR increasing over career with sustained output over long period: not illogical, single burst power production year: not illogical, quite common actually (and as for doing it late in the career I already pointed out some who did it). And again, you are talking about all-time greats so there is not much of a market for comparison sake.

Quote :

"Yet you have not found me A SINGLE instance in your incoherent rant."

Yes, I did. Strenght increase and power numbers increasing over a career is quite common so I don't even understand you point of contention on this.

Quote :

"And it's arguable who the greatest pitcher of our time is. Clemens/Martinez are certainly 1 and 2."

The only reason Clemens gets the nod right now is because Martinez has not had a full career yet... that is why I added that Martinez was the best contingent upon him continuing on a projected path like other players of his skill. In that case, he will probably pass most, if not all, of Clemens totals and be a non-arguement. Martinez has the best performing numbers of anyone (in history, to be honest), through just over half a career.

And Cy Young is a byproduct of the era and not necessarily ability. Its a great achievement but simply not comparable to anything modern era pitchers do. He's great for an award name but no way is he the greatest ever.

Quote :

"Are you blind. Please look at the graph again. He's hitting more after his freak season than his average."

Than his average, yes, but it is right in line with his production levels in the span of years just before and just after the outlier... they aren't inflated from what he was doing before, just from the very start of his career (which is normal).

Quote :

"Here's another graph. You fucking tell me what's goin on."

Well, I see one outlier in a stellar career for Bonds. I see both Aaron and Jackson with late career Power surges and an overall power increase over the career (like Bonds). I also see Pujols is on the same path as McGwire.

Quote :

"Quote : "BTW, steroids are not the issue" yes they are you dumbass"

You again show your ignorance on the subject. You do know the difference between anabolic steroids and HGH, don't you? You do know that there is a test for steroids but no test for HGH, don't you? You do know that Pujols (or any other player) could have been using HGH for every prior season, including this one and still never been caught, don't you?

Quote :

"HEY WAIT A MINUTE, PUJOLS AND MANTLE AND REGGIE DIDNT HAVE FREAK SEASONS LATE IN THEIR CAREERS, YOU MAY BE ONTO SOMETHING"

You are right... Pujols simply started at a freakishly high level that is out of the normal for baseball players and mirrors that of reported enhancement user, McGwire. He came into the league larger than Bonds was in his record season... OMG... PUJOLS IS ON 'ROIDS!!1

Quote :

"Even if Hank Gathers hadn't died, he would've been the best basketball player of our generation. ANY basketball fan would know that hypothetical if if if if if if if what if what if bullshit"

Great logic there... stopping the career at 20 is clearly the same as stopping the career in the mid to late 30's. Its not hypothetical, its simple observation. Hell, even SI recently did an article where they removed an added strenght factor for steroids and took away hits that wouldn't have been homeruns... Bonds would still have over 620 homeruns which would put him in 4th and within striking distance of Mays. GET A FUCKING CLUE!

5/31/2006 2:15:29 PM

AND I HAVE NO PROBLEM BONDS* BEING 4TH! BUT HE'S NOT 4TH YOU DUMBASS! HE'S SECOND WITH A REAL SHOT AT BEING ONE!

CHRIST JEEZUS THAT WAS TWISTA'S POINT

[Edited on May 31, 2006 at 2:19 PM. Reason : .]

5/31/2006 2:19:10 PM

Quote :

"Well, I see one outlier in a stellar career for Bonds. I see both Aaron and Jackson with late career Power surges and an overall power increase over the career (like Bonds). I also see Pujols is on the same path as McGwire."

My God you are so dumb. There is no problem with Pujols' start nor McGwire's*. It's where McGwire* went that everyone has a problem with. And aaron and jackson's late career surge was NOTHING in comparison to to McGwire* or Bonds*.

5/31/2006 2:21:36 PM

Quote :

"AND I HAVE NO PROBLEM BONDS* BEING 4TH! BUT HE'S NOT 4TH YOU DUMBASS! HE'S SECOND WITH A REAL SHOT AT BEING ONE! CHRIST JEEZUS THAT WAS TWISTA'S POINT"

He isn't 4th, he is 2nd. I said 4th is the WORST you could call him and that still makes him one of the greatest players ever and the greatest of our generation (expecially when you factor baserunning and fielding).

CHRIST JEEZUS THAT WAS MY POINT

Quote :

"My God you are so dumb. There is no problem with Pujols' start nor McGwire's*. It's where McGwire* went that everyone has a problem with. And aaron and jackson's late career surge was NOTHING in comparison to to McGwire* or Bonds*."

Actually the start was a point of contention (McGwire has always had rumors surrounding him, as would anyone coming into the league at 6'3" 225 and hitting 40 HR's a year right off the start)... it is NOT normal to come into the league with those sustained power numbers. I know the logic was dumb in that snip because I was mirroring Tree's logic (which is pretty fucking dumb when it comes to baseball).

The power numbers of power hitters in the 60's, 70's and 80's are NOTHING in comparison to today's power hitters, in general... stats are not universal. Besides, all I have to do to defend any power surge is say "Roger Maris"

5/31/2006 2:34:55 PM

Quote :

"You again show your ignorance on the subject. You do know the difference between anabolic steroids and HGH, don't you? You do know that there is a test for steroids but no test for HGH, don't you? You do know that Pujols (or any other player) could have been using HGH for every prior season, including this one and still never been caught, don't you? "

You again show your ignorance on the subject. You do know that Barry Bonds used anabolic steroids and HGH, don't you?

Quote :

"Great logic there... stopping the career at 20 is clearly the same as stopping the career in the mid to late 30's. Its not hypothetical, its simple observation. Hell, even SI recently did an article where they removed an added strenght factor for steroids and took away hits that wouldn't have been homeruns... Bonds would still have over 620 homeruns which would put him in 4th and within striking distance of Mays. GET A FUCKING CLUE!"

wait a minute...are you trying to tell me that its "not hypothetical" to speculate Bonds' career if you "stopped Bond's career at the point he started the steroid peak" and then you use another hypothetical sports illustrated article that "removed an added strength factor for steroids" and thats not hypothetical? are you actually convinced that some "strength factor" is worth a fuck when GUESSING what MIGHT HAVE happened? ITS CALLED "HYPOTHETICAL" you bonds dickrider

5/31/2006 3:33:02 PM

Quote :

"Human growth hormone is more effectv with fewer side-effects, its virtually undetectable, and it isn't in the current testing policy anyways so there is no reason for players to still get caught."

THEN WHY TAKE STEROIDS

5/31/2006 3:44:03 PM

Quote :

"You again show your ignorance on the subject. You do know that Barry Bonds used anabolic steroids and HGH, don't you?"

Yes, that is what I said. You didn't seem to understand that there is a difference between steroids and HGH and that any player, including both Bonds and Pujols could be on a serious doping schedule of HGH and non of the MLB testing would ever catch it.

Quote :

"wait a minute...are you trying to tell me that its "not hypothetical" to speculate Bonds' career if you "stopped Bond's career at the point he started the steroid peak" and then you use another hypothetical sports illustrated article that "removed an added strength factor for steroids" and thats not hypothetical? are you actually convinced that some "strength factor" is worth a fuck when GUESSING what MIGHT HAVE happened? ITS CALLED "HYPOTHETICAL" you bonds dickrider"

No, that is not what I said. You equated stopping someone into their 30's to stopping a career at age 20... not the same thing. The SI article was simply for "added value" to show what people believe his "true" output would have been (because his career wouldn't have stopped in '98 or whenever). And again, I don't like Bonds... I just dislike ignorant comments more.

Quote :

"Quote : "Human growth hormone is more effectv with fewer side-effects, its virtually undetectable, and it isn't in the current testing policy anyways so there is no reason for players to still get caught." THEN WHY TAKE STEROIDS"

Honestly, probably because it took awhile for people to warm up to HGH. Steroids had much more history behind what could happen and while its effects are not good, they at least know jsut how bad it could be. HGH is still relatively new and I could see people wanting it to be used around a bit more to see just how severe it could be. As for why taking steroids period? Well, competitive people are going to sacrifice anything to reach that apex and if it takes steroids to go from "good" to MVP then people like Caminiti are going to do it... if it means the chance to become the greatest to ever play the game , holding the most coveted record in all of sports, then people like Bonds, Sosa and McGwire are going to do it. Irrational risk/rewards behavior is common in every high level of life.

[Edited on June 1, 2006 at 1:01 AM. Reason : .]

6/1/2006 12:57:18 AM

this is great

not 20 minutes ago i sent treetwista a pm

that said the best thing in sports talk now, even better than BOAST BOAST BOAST ever was, is getting you fuckers to defend steroid usage

not 20 minutes ago

6/1/2006 1:04:57 AM

you act as though having a problem with steroids is a given..
it's available to everyone in pro sports, and they're only hurting their own bodies by using them... so i don't really have a problem with it...

6/1/2006 9:16:47 AM

Quote :

"that said the best thing in sports talk now, even better than BOAST BOAST BOAST ever was, is getting you fuckers to defend steroid usage"

I'm not defending steroid use. I can try to understand why they might put their body through it for an advantage, how they rationalize it themselves, but in now way would I defend its use. I just think people are blowing this way out of proportion. Its evident from most posts that people lack scope, a historical perspective, and general knowledge on the subject.

6/1/2006 9:22:24 AM

on the baseball bonds steroid issue's most basic level, bonds took steroids, cheated for records, people dont like cheaters...i dont understand why you try to analyze this so much msb when you dont seem to be able to understand that most fundamental point that everyone else is making...bonds cheated, he got busted, he's a cheater, he took steroids, steroids help you get stronger and subsequently hit the ball farther...so you can go ahead and claim that pujols is using hgh but what is so painfully obvious to everyone but you is that bonds cheated

6/1/2006 10:14:07 AM

but

but

but

HAND-EYE

6/1/2006 10:17:05 AM

Quote :

"on the baseball bonds steroid issue's most basic level, bonds took steroids, cheated for records, people dont like cheaters...i dont understand why you try to analyze this so much msb when you dont seem to be able to understand that most fundamental point that everyone else is making...bonds cheated, he got busted, he's a cheater, he took steroids, steroids help you get stronger and subsequently hit the ball farther...so you can go ahead and claim that pujols is using hgh but what is so painfully obvious to everyone but you is that bonds cheated"

Reading comprehension... get some.

Quote :

"but but but HAND-EYE"

but

but

but

NOT MY FUCKING POINT

[Edited on June 1, 2006 at 11:40 AM. Reason : .]

6/1/2006 11:40:29 AM

you can keep attempting to call people out for "reading comprehension" but you are the only moron in this thread thats defending bonds' steroid use

6/1/2006 11:53:13 AM

Quote :

"you can keep attempting to call people out for "reading comprehension" but you are the only moron in this thread thats defending bonds' steroid use"

I keep calling people like you out becaue you clearly do lack basic reading comprehension skills. Everything you say has nothing to do with what I am talking about. The things you try to call me out on are not things that I say or believe. That is why you lack reading comprehension... you don't seem to understand the words on the screen. Again, I AM NOT DEFENDING STEROID USE.

6/1/2006 2:17:23 PM

i love how you jump to conclusions about people like pujols using banned substances, when you were so gung-ho that bonds only used creatine and protein supplements and legal substances a few years ago

6/1/2006 3:37:18 PM

Quote :

"Does Mihlfeld’s name sound familiar? If it doesn’t, he — and we assure you, this gives us no pleasure to write this — has been Albert Pujols’ personal trainer since before Pujols was drafted by the Cardinals in the 13th round of the 1999 draft."

from the grimsley afadavit.... hopefully pujols turned the other cheek ? (face not butt obviously)



ok so that phrase really doesnt work but I was trying to be witty. anyway hopefully his trainer didnt shoot him up

6/9/2006 9:38:30 AM

ahaha oh man...i really dont know who's juicing and who's not nowadays

6/9/2006 9:44:39 AM