I wonder if anyone has done a study to see how noise pollution from jets will effect the avian population at the proposed site. Now I doubt many in the Navy care but there were humans that might be effected then noise would be a top concern.

3/5/2007 11:27:16 AM

im pretty pro-military, and im not much of an enviromentalist, but this has gotten rediculous if its actually being considered.
http://www.wral.com/news/state/story/1225994/

submitted that to drudge, want to see if it gets put up.

3/7/2007 1:37:57 PM

Why shouldn't everyone be some sort of level of environmentalist? We all live somewhere and all are affected by environmental degradation.

3/7/2007 2:48:38 PM

ok, so now they want to kill, poison, or scare off the waterfowl along the largest stopping point on the eastern flyway


lol


LOL

good luck

3/7/2007 3:26:14 PM

^^^ That's fucking sickening. How about we poison/shoot the pilots? Senseless killing begets senseless killing.

[Edited on March 7, 2007 at 4:21 PM. Reason : By "that" I mean the article.]

3/7/2007 4:21:41 PM

Update, town hearings, etc.

http://www.newsobserver.com/159/story/555285.html

3/19/2007 11:49:50 AM

If this shit goes down, do you think anyone will try to do the protest thing where you stand in front of the construction equipment blocking them from moving? Id be up for that. The whole situation is saddening that the navy are being such staunch assholes towards EVERYTHING except their own interests.

3/19/2007 4:22:11 PM

I'd be up for that


the govt will probably just claim emminent domain

3/19/2007 4:24:37 PM

Quote :

"How about we poison/shoot the pilots?"

we will be. if by shooting you mean putting large birds into their jet engines.

3/19/2007 9:34:58 PM

The NC Government is fighting this all the way. Hopefully we'll win.

3/19/2007 10:39:50 PM

It's a good thing our Senators have the best interests of the state in mind.........


Oh wait!




[Edited on March 19, 2007 at 10:46 PM. Reason : .]

3/19/2007 10:46:38 PM

^I'm referencing the state government, not tards dole and burr.

3/19/2007 10:52:16 PM

Oh I know. People who actually give a damn about NC's interests are vocal opponants of this raping of our natural wildlife.

3/19/2007 11:13:56 PM

bttt by request


so what are the arguments FOR using this location for the OLF? I feel like I've only ever heard one side of the story.

Also, FYI, the Navy is moving two Super Hornet squadrons from Oceana, VA to MCAS Cherry Point, NC--not far from the proposed OLF. I'm sure this is why they want one in that general vicinity.

[Edited on January 23, 2008 at 12:58 PM. Reason : asfdadsf]

1/23/2008 12:50:49 PM

Quote :

"Navy scraps plan for airstrip: Officials still looking at northeastern N.C. sites The Navy has killed a plan to build a practice landing field near an Eastern North Carolina wildlife refuge, but will look for a new site elsewhere in the state's northeastern corner. Five years of debate over military needs, environmental protection and rural life now shifts to Gates, Camden and Currituck counties, where the Navy says it will evaluate two new sites. Three Virginia sites will also be considered."

http://www.charlotte.com/local/story/458454.html

1/23/2008 12:56:02 PM

This is a waste of taxpayer money. There are already unused NALF and OLFs around NC, particularly MCOLF Atlantic, NC and MCALF Bogue Field, NC both of which are in or near Carteret County. If they would keep the squadrons at Cherry Point they wouldn't need to build a new field. But Virginia politics about keeping all that economic development in Hampton Roads means they just want all the benefits and to dump all the consequences on NC.

MCOLF Atlantic, NC
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/atlantic-olf.htm

MCALF Bogue Field, NC
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/bogue-field.htm

[Edited on January 23, 2008 at 1:01 PM. Reason : .]

1/23/2008 1:00:35 PM

that all may be true, but again, i'd like to hear the other side's arguments.

Quote :

"If they would keep the squadrons at Cherry Point they wouldn't need to build a new field."

What squadrons are going away from Cherry Point?

I'm not sure you understand what an OLF is.

1/23/2008 1:08:31 PM

Quote :

"MCALF Bogue Field, NC http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/bogue-field.htm"

Used to live across from it.

I talked to two people about it this weekend that work at Cherry Point, they said it's really a crap deal, and could care less about the birds. It's going to bring something like 12 jobs to Beaufort County, farmers in Beaufort County are going to lose their jobs and their acreage, so the net jobs will actually be negative. Beaufort County will lose some of its tax base, cause you are not allowed to tax the federal government and they will not get the property taxes from the land that has the runway. There is not going to be any kind of stopping reason at the OLF as they are not going to stop and fill up with gas.

It's really nothing more than a Virginia senator that wanted the squadrons at Oceana but they didn't have a sufficient landing field for them there. So he thought "hey, I can screw over North Carolina".

1/23/2008 1:35:54 PM

Quote :

"What squadrons are going away from Cherry Point?"

Excuse me, if they would move the squadrons there. They tried to once. But ole John Warner of VA is a wiley one.

1/23/2008 2:00:03 PM

From what I understand, it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that at least 2 Super squadrons are coming to Cherry Point. There has been some talk of bringing 4 squadrons down there, but as far as I know, it's just going to be 2.

However, why would bringing squadrons to Cherry Point alleviate the need for an OLF?

1/23/2008 4:49:37 PM

^ probably. The reason they even wanted another OLF is because residential development encroached around NALF Fentress, and the Virginia Beach citizens and real estate industry wanted the training moved somewhere else to help real estate values appreciate. This whole OLF thing was a debacle from the start and would have been avoided by simply putting the squadrons in Cherry Point to begin with.

1/23/2008 5:33:11 PM

well, Cherry Point is a Marine Corps base. Oceana is a Navy base. These squadrons in question are NAVY squadrons. The USMC does not operate Super Hornets, so there is a significant cost inefficiency in bringing these aircraft there. Many (most? all?) of these Super Hornet squadrons operated Tomcats before that airplane was retired from service. The Marine Corps never operated Tomcats, either. With all of that in mind, suggesting that these squadrons should've been based at MCAS Cherry Point "to begin with" (whatever that means--these squadrons have probably been around for decades, potentially even 50+ years...I don't know which squadrons are in question) is absurd.


Finally, again, why would having these aircraft at Cherry Point alleviate the need for an OLF?

[Edited on January 23, 2008 at 5:59 PM. Reason : i'm not arguing about the specific site--i'm talking about in general.]

1/23/2008 5:58:08 PM

our professor last semester let us know about this...i was very pleased when i heard earlier today that they had narrowed it down to 5 locations and none of the 5 were the location near the wildlife reserve

1/23/2008 6:09:00 PM

^^ It's a moot question anyway. I'm from Havelock. Cherry Point does not have the facilities currently to support all of the squadrons. It's one reason Oceana was chosen for the main squadron base back...geez...ten years ago I think (I was in high school when the decision was made I think and I graduated from high school in 2000). The only people at the time that really supported bringing the squadrons there were your real estate developers, local businesses, etc., just cause they were the only ones that stood to profit.

The only reason the 2 squadrons are going to Cherry Point is as a carrot for the North Carolina state government. The military is very important to the economy of eastern North Carolina (albeit not where the OLF is going to be). There's the Coast Guard base in Elizabeth City and a smaller one at Atlantic Beach. The Army are in Fayetteville. The Navy are in Jacksonville. The Marines are in Jacksonville and Havelock. The Air Force are in Goldsboro.

Plus, there's a civilian Naval Aviation Depot in Havelock on the Cherry Point base that does major maintenance to Marine and Navy aircraft and helicopters. I'm not entirely sure, but the Super Hornet may get its depot-level maintenance at Cherry Point.

So it was originally thought that North Carolina would be very willing to accept the OLF as it would bring in 2 squadrons to the Havelock/Cherry Point area and they would not want to piss off the Navy, who are a significant employer for the area in general, although like I said, there's little connection to military in Little Washington, so the locals have little reason to support being a landing strip.

As far as your question on why bringing squadrons to Cherry Point would alleviate the need for an OLF, it was my impression already that they have one in Bogue.

Quote :

"MCALF Bogue Field is the primary location for AV-8B practice operations. It is also used by other locally based USMC aircraft. It supports about 3500 FCLPs per training year. Training squadron aircraft take priority over normal traffic; exercises take priority over all other users, including training. One reference specifically stated that it was unlikely that this facility would be used to provide additional capacity for conventional (i.e. non-AV-8B) FCLPs. This 875-acre landing field fronts Bogue Sound. It is primarily used for field carrier landing practice, and pilots perform many of these landings at night to simulate landing on an aircraft carrier. It also serves as the Marines' only East Coast site for such training, to include the maintenance and operation of an expeditionary airfield. This capability helps ensure success for the Corps. It provides the force with the means to forward deploy its aviation assets in order to have a more readily accessible aviation punch for the Marine Air Ground Task Force commander on the battlefield. Bogue Field (officially Marine Corps Auxiliary Landing Field Bogue) consists of a runway constructed of aluminum panels which can, in theory, be disassembled and reconstructed anywhere in the world in a matter of days by a specialty construction battalion. Bogue Field has no aircraft permanently assigned. It serves as a training facility primarily for AV-8 Harriers from Cherry Point Marine Corps Air Station. However, it is also used for practice approaches by C-130 transports from Cherry Point, F-18 fighters from Beaufort, SC, and helicopters from New River MCAS. The communities of Emerald Isle and Bogue are near the Bogue facility. MCAS Cherry Point has enjoyed a comfortable relationship with these communities and the counties, although Emerald Isle residents have formed a committee to evaluate the impact that MCALF Bogue has on their community. That there is a noise impact on Emerald Isle's lifestyle is obvious. Citizens who live close to normal flight patterns find it very offensive. Tourists who visit the area are probably mixed in their opinions, but there is anecdotal evidence that tourists favor the quieter sections of Bogue Banks. No survey has specifically been aimed at our visitors. The Town of Emerald Isle's economic engine is tourism, not government spending. In this respect, it is different from much of the rest of Carteret County."

[Edited on January 23, 2008 at 6:21 PM. Reason : /]

1/23/2008 6:19:04 PM

Quote :

"Navy wants to evict 74 families from their Beaufort/Washington farm lands"

Oh boy. They're doing this Beaufort?
Be ready for a fucking bodycount

1/23/2008 6:53:08 PM

^^ i'm not familiar with Bogue Field, but it doesn't sound like the sort of place they'd want to do FCLPs (carrier landing practice) with the Super Hornets.

The fact that Harriers and helos use it means nothing with respect to the Super Hornets, especially at the volume of training the Navy squadrons would be doing (compared to the Marines).

In addition, it sounds like noise abatement is already a big concern there, which is part of why they want to get the Supers out of Oceana to begin with.

1/23/2008 7:11:07 PM

Duke's killing me here. I wanted to get the scoop since I asked for the bttt since I heard about the story this morning on NPR. I almost ran off the road with excitement. But I was asleep by the time he likely saw it.

[Edited on January 23, 2008 at 9:06 PM. Reason : .]

1/23/2008 9:03:57 PM

How bout using the Randy Parton Theater land?

The theater could make a dandy control tower.

1/23/2008 10:17:09 PM

Hey Duke, check out the link for the location of Bouge MCALF.

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=34.695278,-77.038333&spn=0.03,0.03&t=k&q=34.695278,-77.038333

That shit might work for Harriers and helos, but the first problem is its setup as an amphib carrier instead of an aircraft carrier, and the approach path has it going right over Emerald Isle. The whole point of an OLF is to practice in an area of almost total darkness, to simulate conditions on the ocean at night. This is MUCH more difficult to simulate when you have houses on both ends of the runway.

Bogue has a LOT more encroachment issues than Fentress as well. You can't expand the runway much at all, and it has houses not far off of both ends, and very close to the end of 23. Those houses are far closer, and currently only deal with quieter and smaller amounts of aircraft like Harriers and helos. Fentress by comparison has around 24x more FCLPs done each year than Bogue. I think if you had 25 times as much traffic as you do now the people on Emerald Isle would be fucking screaming to get Bogue closed.

Unfortunately an OLF is needed, and it needs to be put in the middle of bumfuck eastern NC. I think Gates and Camden county are both really good choices on the matter myself. There ain't shit out there for miles in places. Bogue ain't the answer though.

1/23/2008 10:17:51 PM

I would still like to know why, other than noise, NALF Fentress isn't being used a great deal any longer. http://maps.google.com/maps?t=h&q=34.695278,-77.038333&ie=UTF8&ll=36.692855,-76.13225&spn=0.026497,0.057077&z=15&om=0 If the Navy doesn't want to use it, I know A LOT of other people who want access to the runway and taxi way area for autocrosses and teen drivers schools.


The Camden/Currituck site would likely be in the middle of this. http://maps.google.com/maps?t=h&q=34.695278,-77.038333&ie=UTF8&ll=36.263653,-75.975952&spn=0.106577,0.22831&z=13&om=0

And the site near Blackwater (ha) that I've heard about lately is likely this. http://maps.google.com/maps?t=h&q=34.695278,-77.038333&ie=UTF8&ll=36.516535,-76.271038&spn=0.106231,0.22831&z=13&om=0

1/23/2008 10:55:11 PM

Quote :

"They're doing this Beaufort? "

This is Beaufort County, where the seat is Little Washington. This is not the city of Beaufort down by Morehead.

1/24/2008 8:36:17 AM

^^Safety I believe, and the fact that the enchroacement means that it has much more light on the approach path at night. It is still getting used a shitload, but they want to have somewhere a little more out of the way to do practice flying without worrying about waking the neighbors as they thunder overhead.

1/24/2008 12:54:17 PM

why dont they just use OLF Atlantic. That place has 2 runways, both of which are longer than a carrier deck. Global Security says there are no endangered species there, and the fucking thing IS ALREADY THERE!!!!!!

so why build a new one at all?

1/25/2008 2:32:43 AM

not familiar with OLF Atlantic, either...but saying that its runways are longer than a carrier deck means something less than jack shit.

I also have no idea where it's at, so that may or may not be an issue.

1/25/2008 3:11:11 AM

the approach at Bogue field isn't across EI, it's across cape carteret


at least from what I've seen

I've seen hundreds on landing and takeoffs there, none coming from the EI/ocean side


all landings/takeoffs have been from the mainland side

1/25/2008 4:40:45 AM

the winds probably dictate that direction a lot of the time

and/or they try not to use it when the wind dictates coming in from the other direction

but again, the runway requirements for a Harrier and a Super Hornet are, ummm, not even slightly comparable.

1/25/2008 5:02:25 AM

The mainland side (23) has a trailer park and houses just outside the perimeter that would flood the place with light. Not to mention the runway is already short, and clearing enough space to build on it would mean condeming that whole neighborhood.

And in answer to your question about OLF Atlantic, here is a document with some actual research on Atlantic and the ability to use it.

http://www.eccog.org/common/ewe/documents/MARINE%20CORPS%20OUTLYING%20LANDING%20FIELD%20ATLANTIC.doc

I think that answers all the questions.

1/25/2008 2:08:12 PM

it says it is unsuitable for fixed wing aircraft currently because of deteriorating runway pavement. How hard is that to fix? certianly it would cost less than building an entire new facility.

1/25/2008 3:23:29 PM

Quote :

"The potential for future uses may be limited by high water tables and flooding in low-lying areas"

Did you not read that? Have you not looked at a map? This thing is a very short distance from the town of Atlantic. Not a good thing when you want to simulate total darkness for landing on a carrier deck in the ocean. Or do you just cover half the cockpit in black paper so the pilot doesn't see the fucking town just to the side of the runway?

1/25/2008 10:07:14 PM

lol, I wouldn't call Atlantic a town


I wouldn't even call it a village


it's a few trailers


and a ferry

1/26/2008 8:34:48 AM

^exactly. Ive driven through atlantic before, got my picture taken with the "END US 70" sign too


anyway, OLF atlantic is not all that close to the "town". And all the town is is a couple of huts and a fire station.

1/26/2008 1:16:44 PM

And you don't think those people might complain if you have 30,000+ Super Hornet landings/takeoffs happening all hours all night and day year round?

And you also do not think that this town may be giving off light at night? I live in a fucking small town and at night it still gives off enough light to illuminate the sky and clouds above it when I drive in. That kind of defeats the purpose of the field. They want a blank area to land in at night. A town/village/hamlet WTFever just south of the field would fuck this up.

[Edited on January 27, 2008 at 1:28 PM. Reason : ]

1/27/2008 1:27:56 PM