Quote :

"would you like if armed cells were setting up shop next door to you firing off rockets?"

nice emotional appeal, lacking any sort of context. lets play "name that fallacy".

but if you insist: it would depend on what the fight was for.

if they were resisting/fighting against armed aggression by another country onto my home soil, i'd probably help them.

if they were some lunatic fringe group that i didnt want any part of, i would lock the doors and head north to grandma's house.

8/7/2006 8:28:36 PM

Quote :

"if they were some lunatic fringe group that i didnt want any part of, i would lock the doors and head north to grandma's house."

But 30% of your neighbors, some of them probably being the ones killed in the conflict, want them there. Why should these folks be included in the numbers?

8/7/2006 8:31:09 PM

Quote :

"american patriots, however, wouldnt wear uniforms, just their regular clothes. they would hide behind trees, in backs of buildings, and lay low in farmlands, and pick off the British troops as they marched around in their impressive formations."

Not a very accurate grasp of history.

But hey, whatever.

8/7/2006 9:05:11 PM

Quote :

"so, here it is. if youre on our side, youre a freedom fighting patriot. if youre on the other side, youre a guerilla terrorist."

if thats how you want to look at it...then freakin pick your side...are you with america or are you with the terrorists...if you are with the terrorits then go over there and join them....if not....stop your bitching

8/7/2006 11:09:57 PM

Quote :

"if they were resisting/fighting against armed aggression by another country onto my home soil, i'd probably help them. if they were some lunatic fringe group that i didnt want any part of, i would lock the doors and head north to grandma's house."

i assume you contend the first scenario to be true, but i thought it was hezbollah who initiated aggressions, could be wrong though

btw, your thread is old
http://www.brentroad.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=424471&page=1#9117823

8/8/2006 12:00:50 AM

Quote :

"if thats how you want to look at it...then freakin pick your side...are you with america or are you with the terrorists"

nice. concrete thinking much?

heres what: im on whatever side you're not.

8/8/2006 2:33:48 AM

Lebanon really messed up Israel and the US now by saying that they would directly send thousands of troops to the southern border if Israel were to withdraw right away.

Now it's time to see the real intentions of Israel. Damn those Lebanese are smart.

8/8/2006 2:50:04 AM

Quote :

"you know its funny. when i was a kid, we studied the american revolution. and talked about how "the Patriots" would employ non-conventional fighting techniques against the British troops. the British Army (who outnumbered, outclassed, and outgunned us) wore their bright red coats, marched shoulder to shoulder, with rows deep in tight formation. like professional soldiers right? american patriots, however, wouldnt wear uniforms, just their regular clothes. they would hide behind trees, in backs of buildings, and lay low in farmlands, and pick off the British troops as they marched around in their impressive formations. the Brits complained loudly that the Americans were fighting like savage barbarians, that we didnt respect the rules of warfare, that we should behave like normal armies, wear uniforms and march in tight formations. but, even as a kids in elementary school, we all understood the simple truth: so, here it is. if youre on our side, youre a freedom fighting patriot. if youre on the other side, youre a guerilla terrorist. if you can control the media, you define the terms. It's pretty clear that the lebanese don't have a great amount of influence on western media."

You forgot to include the part about the legions of "American Patriots" that went back to England, hid among the British populace, and randomly shot and killed the civilians while they ate at their restaurants and drank at their pubs.

8/8/2006 7:24:13 AM

Quote :

"nice. concrete thinking much? heres what: im on whatever side you're not."

you made the stupid comments in the first place. i was just pointing them out.

and i somehow knew you would side with terrorists....ill buy your plane ticket to iran. let me know how much it costs.

[Edited on August 8, 2006 at 8:38 AM. Reason : asdf]

8/8/2006 8:38:25 AM

there's a difference between hiding behind a tree (american patriots)

and hiding behind a woman and child (hezbollah guerillas)

but leave it to joe_schmoe to craft some sort of moral equivalency between the two... methinks seattle has addled your brain!

8/8/2006 9:26:35 AM

Quote :

"You forgot to include the part about the legions of "American Patriots" that went back to England, hid among the British populace, and randomly shot and killed the civilians while they ate at their restaurants and drank at their pubs."

LOL.

you win.

8/8/2006 11:09:36 AM

Quote :

"there's a difference between hiding behind a tree (american patriots) and hiding behind a woman and child (hezbollah guerillas)"

now you're being disingenuous.

they dont hide behind women and children, except perhaps in your glorious cartoons. they are not firing rockets from underneath grandma's sewing table. they are not firing rockets from behind a toddlers crib. they are not firing rockets from the middle of the dining room at the old folks' home.

no matter what your jewish cartoon propagandists wants you to believe.

i agree, they are firing rockets from positions in urban environments.

just like the american patriots in the early stages of the American Revolution, they are using assymetric warfare tactics against a stronger, more numerous, and better equipped invading force. just like the american patriots in the early stages of the American Revolution, they are choosing not to stand in formation in the direct paths of the israeli cavalry, but to use the urban and rural surroundings as cover.

Yeah, in this case Israel is at a disadvantage. But they are the superior force, and they are the ones who initiated the attacks. for Israel to be killing 20 civilians for every 1 guerilla fighter is not an acceptable strategy. they will never defeat hezbollah this way, and it will continually backfire against them until they eventually start carpet bombing.

if you're going to take the moral high road against the so-called terrorists, then you cant behave like terrorists yourself.

surely you understand this.

[Edited on August 8, 2006 at 11:41 AM. Reason : ]

8/8/2006 11:26:40 AM

Quote :

"But they are the superior force, and they are the ones who initiated the attacks"

wait

israel initiated this conflict?

i seem to remember hezbollah attacking israel and kidnapping two soldiers

did i dream that?

8/8/2006 11:42:11 AM

Quote :

"your glorious cartoons"

Heh, I'm going to have to do something with this...

8/8/2006 11:52:02 AM

Quote :

"i seem to remember hezbollah attacking israel and kidnapping two soldiers "

hezbollah took 2 soldiers hostage, as part of a plan to address the 2000 or so lebanese and palastinian prisoners that Israel is illegally holding, some are women and children, and many with no evidence of ever having committed a crime.

so israel started rocketing and bombing lebanon as a response.

but I guess you're going to "remember" whatever you want.

8/8/2006 11:55:46 AM

hezbollah must not give a fuck about the lebanese people if they shoot rockets from schools and mosques

but joe_schmoe is right...hezbollah are great leaders...they are not terrorists at all...they didnt just send an unarmed drone from iran with 80 pounds of explosives towards an israeli neighborhood or anything

8/8/2006 11:57:15 AM

Are you like suffering from downs or something man?

Quote :

"i seem to remember hezbollah attacking israel and kidnapping two soldiers"

And you replied

Quote :

"hezbollah took 2 soldiers hostage, as part of a plan to address the 2000 or so lebanese and palastinian prisoners that Israel is illegally holding, some are women and children, and many with no evidence of ever having committed a crime. so israel started rocketing and bombing lebanon as a response. but I guess you're going to "remember" whatever you want."

[Edited on August 8, 2006 at 11:57 AM. Reason : ^^ to Joe_schmoe]

8/8/2006 11:57:21 AM

taking 2 soldiers hostage is not the same as attacking a country.

what part dont you get?

bombing civilian infrastructure (airports, bridges) of a soveriegn nation in response to having two soldiers swiped over a hostage dispute is an extremely disproportionate response of force .

jesus christ. do you have any capacity for rational thought? or do you just follow Fox News talking points verbatim?




[Edited on August 8, 2006 at 12:08 PM. Reason : ]

8/8/2006 12:06:06 PM

Thats not what I'm arguing at all.

He simply stated what he remembered

You confirmed what he remembered was correct, but then tried to play it like it wasn't.

Am I missing some key bit of information here orrrrr

8/8/2006 12:07:06 PM

Quote :

"taking 2 soldiers hostage is not the same as attacking a country"

what has hezbollah been doing to israel for the past week or two?

attacking a country

8/8/2006 12:08:27 PM

^^

Quote :

"taking 2 soldiers hostage is not the same as attacking a country. what part dont you get? "

[Edited on August 8, 2006 at 12:10 PM. Reason : ]

8/8/2006 12:09:00 PM

arrgh. here comes treetwista. goddamn, someone post the picture of the brick wall please.

tree, if youre too stoned to follow the debate, please dont join in.





[Edited on August 8, 2006 at 12:12 PM. Reason : ]

8/8/2006 12:09:56 PM

how wasted were you when you made this thread?

maybe too wasted to see the other 116 threads of the same topic?

8/8/2006 12:15:05 PM

Quote :

"taking 2 soldiers hostage is not the same as attacking a country."

sure it is

if mexico attacked the US border and killed some border patrolmen while kidnapping two others, this wouldnt be considered an act of war?

8/8/2006 12:16:25 PM

Quote :

"hezbollah took 2 soldiers hostage, as part of a plan to address the 2000 or so lebanese and palastinian prisoners that Israel is illegally holding, some are women and children, and many with no evidence of ever having committed a crime."

Israel is holding 3 lebanese prisoners.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5211930.stm

Syria is holding more than 200 lebanese prisoners.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4586219

8/8/2006 12:21:21 PM

hey joe_schmoe

dont pay attention to what rwoody just said or Mr. Joshua and his links

just perpetuate the false stereotype that I'm too stoned to even navigate this messageboard so you won't feel like you've been getting owned throughout your shitty thread

8/8/2006 12:23:38 PM

that lonely israeli tank looks so hopeless
lol

8/8/2006 12:35:12 PM

Yes, I'm bored. Felt like the cartoon could use some more to quality as glorious.

8/8/2006 12:54:36 PM

Quote :

"Remember, 30% of the Lebanese support Hezbollah."

Closer to 90% now, thanks to the current conflict.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0728/p06s01-wome.html

Quote :

"if mexico attacked the US border and killed some border patrolmen while kidnapping two others, this wouldnt be considered an act of war?"

Actually, that type of shit has happened down by the Mexican border before. It usually doesn't result in a war, though.

8/8/2006 2:06:03 PM

^ And this is sure to pour cold water on their support:

http://reuters.myway.com/article/20060811/2006-08-11T144728Z_01_N11342316_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-MIDEAST-ISRAEL-ROCKETS-DC.html

8/11/2006 12:07:02 PM

Quote :

"He added that it was likely that Israel will get the rockets, but will be told to "be careful.""

This is a sick joke; since when did Israel cared about Arab civilians deaths?

And yeah, carry on USA, and then make a chimp face like Bush as ask "Why do they hate us?"

8/11/2006 12:11:05 PM

Since when did Arabs give a shit about Arab civilian deaths?

8/11/2006 12:13:15 PM

Arabs != Terrorists

You lose.

[Edited on August 11, 2006 at 12:16 PM. Reason : .]

8/11/2006 12:15:55 PM

Israel != IDF

Yawn.

Because every last person in Israel is pulling the trigger.

8/11/2006 12:35:07 PM

well, obviously they are

8/11/2006 12:38:11 PM

^^ I'm sorry to see that you were e-tired, earlier. I'm guessing that's what made you think I associated all Israelis with the IDF, since I don't, and couldn't find anything I'd posted to suggest I did. It must also have been what affected your ability to comprehend the concept that not all Arabs are terrorists, and may therefore be concerned about civilian deaths.

[Edited on August 11, 2006 at 12:49 PM. Reason : ...]

8/11/2006 12:47:57 PM

I'm not saying all Arabs are terrorists, I'm saying that a lot of Arabs don't give a shit about other Arabs (terrorists typically, but a lot of times even people from different sects of Islam).

I was saying Israel != IDF to drive home the point that people say "the Israelis" all the time without actually meaning them as an ethnicity, but the Israeli military. I used "Arabs" in the same way, referring to Hezbollah combatants. I'm sorry you didn't build that connection.

8/11/2006 12:54:58 PM

You might want to inform Israel of this disctinction, because apparently they're misinformed as well...

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/

The title: The Israeli Government's Official Website

Unless of course, you're suggesting that the state of Israel believes that it governs all members of the Israeli ethnicity...

8/11/2006 1:13:15 PM

Yes everybody in Israel is a current member of the military and all of them agree with the events going on right this moment.

I'm starting to feel like TreeTwista here but what is it that you're saying?

8/11/2006 1:17:52 PM

You should probably research Isreali conscription laws, Mike.

Unfortunately, what you said is almost true.

8/11/2006 1:22:17 PM

They all HAVE served

It's mandatory

I know this

But it's not like every single Israeli civilian there is like " woop woop let's go "

and it 's not like they all pull the trigger each time something happens

I mean what are you saying here

"They all have been in the military or WILL be! Bomb their cities! Get them before they become IDF soldiers!"

8/11/2006 1:25:09 PM

i know as of a day or two ago, there was something to the effect of 80-90% support for israel's current action in lebanon. there has been some decline in that in the past day or so because of the israeli losses. so in short, most israelis support the military action.

8/11/2006 1:26:47 PM

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L21734098.htm

8/11/2006 1:27:20 PM

^yeah, as i said, that's from a few weeks ago, support has fallen some since then.

8/11/2006 1:29:06 PM

Quote :

"there was something to the effect of 80-90% support for israel's current action in lebanon. "

holy shit kill them all!

8/11/2006 1:30:18 PM

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7004425881

No apparently it hasn't really fallen.

8/11/2006 1:32:34 PM

One thing I've been wondering about recently is:

Where are the Hezbollah fighters/terrorists susposed to fight from? People siding with Israel claim that Hezbollah is purposely hiding rocket launchers in apartments with women and children inside of them.

I'm not claiming they aren't doing that - I fully realize they are. On the other hand, what are their options? These people clearly have a vendetta against Israel, but they will never win with a conflict such as this. Dispite the apparent lack of thought put into this current conflict, we have to assume they aren't idiots.

Thus, what options do they have? A full front-on assault on the Israeli border is a surefire way to suicide with little or no Israeli casualties. While they have weapons from outside sources, they don't have the infrastructure to mass themselves into purely military positions. If they leave the cover of commerical and residential areas they are sure to be blown to bits.

Essentially Isreal is giving them no options but to continue to hide. The only place they can do so is inside buildings civilians sometimes frequent. Civilians can't leave since Israel is shooting anything that moves.

I'm not saying Hezbollah aren't terrorists, but by trying to minimize their own military casualties by using airstrikes instead of ground forces in Civilian areas they are increasing the suffering of innocent people in Lebanon.

It's a shame that the Lebanese government doesn't attempt to stop Hezbollah on the ground. At least officially - this might stop the Israeli airstrikes.

Personally I would have thought it better for Israel to start out with a ground invasion from the beginning.

[Edited on August 11, 2006 at 1:37 PM. Reason : .]

8/11/2006 1:35:36 PM

^^that article is still over a week old. the falls have happened in the last couple days. and it's still not horribly dramatic.

EDIT:

articles (apparently it's a little more dramatic than i realize):



http://www.aftenposten.no/english/world/article1418567.ece
http://tinyurl.com/jdcbc



[Edited on August 11, 2006 at 1:46 PM. Reason : articles]

8/11/2006 1:39:06 PM

^^ Israel is handicapped, too. What's an appropriate response to Hezbollah's rockets? A treaty?

---

Quote :

"ChknMcFaggot: I mean what are you saying here "They all have been in the military or WILL be! Bomb their cities! Get them before they become IDF soldiers!""

No, what I'm saying is that the term "Israeli" is the proper term. The Israeli government even says "Israeli Government's Official Website" on its site. Either you're wrong--and you are, or someone needs to correct the Israelis on the proper use of their own adjective...

Quote :

"ChknMcFaggot: "They all have been in the military or WILL be! Bomb their cities! Get them before they become IDF soldiers!""

Please walk us through how you got the above interpretation from any of my words.

[Edited on August 11, 2006 at 2:11 PM. Reason : .]

8/11/2006 1:47:36 PM

^ Yes I understand and a treaty obviously wouldn't be an appropriate response.

As I explained somewhat, I would have prefered a ground invasion with limited air strikes only on extremely threatening targets near civilians or on good intelligence that the air strike is only taking out hostiles.

Long term, I think it's in Israels best interest to limit Lebanese civilian casualties. I realize many look at a ground invasion as an escalation, but I assume (possibly incorrectly) that a superior ground force would be the best way to limit casualties of civilians, both Lebanese and Israeli (I suspect an initial all-out ground assult would have been able to cripple Hezbollah by this 3 1/2 week point).

8/11/2006 2:11:17 PM