^^ you go ahead and prove that one. All that is is speculation. And if they are colluding... then why are gas prices falling when the input (crude) is falling too? Seems to me that these events make sense under the rules of capitalism.

Collusion is illegal and if they were in collusion, then when the price of crude went down and the price of gas remained, they would be investigated.

The oil companies are some of the most investigated in the country. The Senate/House/Government has yet to find a single thing they've done wrong.

^THERE IS NO PRICE FIXING YOU RETARD! THE FUCKING PRICES ARE GOING DOWN! DO YOU REALLY HAVE TO DIG THAT DEEP FOR A FUCKING CONSPIRACY THEORY?

[Edited on September 15, 2006 at 10:44 AM. Reason : .]

9/15/2006 10:43:58 AM

Yeah, they might have to bring some of the companies before the Senate and forget to put them under oath or something.

9/15/2006 10:45:04 AM

OH YEAH! I REMEMBER WHEN THE PRESS REPORTED THAT! I'M SO SILLY


really, just stop, you're making a fool of yourself.

[Edited on September 15, 2006 at 10:46 AM. Reason : .]

9/15/2006 10:45:49 AM

Quote :

"the comparison that i made was between gas prices 6 months ago and gas prices now. it had nothing to do with location. you are being intellectually dishonest by claiming my comparison was about location. and you are being intellectually stupid to claim that gas prices have not dropped dramatically in the last few months. it has little to do with geography. i have parent in charlotte. thats not far from raleigh. dont tell me that the rise and fall in gas prices is related to me being NY (at the time). I know what gas prices were down here a few months ago and iknow what they are now. stop being an idiot "

gas in New York is exhorbitantly higher than gas in NC. It still has to do with a geographical comparison.


and how can the gas companies not be colluding? Look at their profits over the past year. Look at the severence package Exxon gave their ceo. Oil companies are colluding. Any statement beyond that and you are kidding yourself.

I never understood why the oil companies are viewed favorably by republicans.

9/15/2006 10:49:40 AM

oh holy shit. You are retarded.


You can't look at profits. Exxon is a HUGE company, the raw number of profit is HUGE as well (see: ratios).

Look at PROFIT MARGIN... which for the oil industry is between 10 - 11%... modest. CITIBANK has a 16.5% profit margin.

It has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with economics. ^ plz read.

[Edited on September 15, 2006 at 10:53 AM. Reason : .]

9/15/2006 10:51:33 AM

Quote :

"no you won't"

exactly

9/15/2006 10:55:01 AM

If you want to see who's robbing you at the pump

1Q 2005 - Exxon Mobil (in millions)
TOTAL REVENUE $82,051
TOTAL TAXES $23,225
NET INCOME (PROFIT) $7,860


THEY'RE PAYING THREE-TIMES MORE TAXES THAN THEY'RE GETTING IN PROFIT! WHO'S ROBBING WHOM?

It seems to me that Congress should investigate themselves and they're tax procedure instead of the oil companies. It's not the profit that's causing the prices to be high, it's the fucking tax.

[Edited on September 15, 2006 at 11:00 AM. Reason : .]

9/15/2006 11:00:01 AM

Don't forget the $0.27/g gas tax in NC and the $0.184/g US gas tax.

9/15/2006 11:05:28 AM

and all their revenue taxes and tax on capital and anything else that the government taxes.


I mean, if you think that's fair...

9/15/2006 11:11:49 AM

nutsmacker...your an idiot....

prices rose in NY....and now they have fallen in NY....prices rose in NC...nowthey have fallen in NC...geography has NOTHING to do with this....get past your stupid argument...holy cow

the profit margin on a gallon of gasoline is TINY....its miniscule compares to somethign like...say...a plasma tv.....

Quote :

" and how can the gas companies not be colluding? Look at their profits over the past year. Look at the severence package Exxon gave their ceo. Oil companies are colluding. Any statement beyond that and you are kidding yourself."

are you serious??...."but they make lots of money!!! evil corporations!!!....impeach bush!!"

yes they make alot of moeny because they have a product that we all need....but those prices rise and fall in conjunction with the priceof crude oil every time....have some proof that they are colluding ...dont just come out and bitch about everything

9/15/2006 11:13:51 AM

he doesn't understand the difference between profit and profit margin... that's the gist of the whole thing.

9/15/2006 11:19:51 AM

pretty much...its his nature as a hippie liberal to cry about big bad corporations who make lots of money. In truth, he has no idea how economics works and he is not interested in learning. he would rather bitch and moan about evil oil companies who are out to make (heaven forbid!!!) profit.

9/15/2006 11:22:41 AM

and without that (evil) profit... there would be no oil exploration, no refineries, no gasoline

9/15/2006 11:24:06 AM

Quote :

"prices rose in NY....and now they have fallen in NY....prices rose in NC...nowthey have fallen in NC...geography has NOTHING to do with this....get past your stupid argument...holy cow"

You were still comparing NY prices (the 3.00) to NC prices (2.00)

And for fuckssake. Over this summer, Exxon was making 1 billion dollars a month.

Quote :

"pretty much...its his nature as a hippie liberal to cry about big bad corporations who make lots of money. In truth, he has no idea how economics works and he is not interested in learning. he would rather bitch and moan about evil oil companies who are out to make (heaven forbid!!!) profit."

there is profit, then there is collusion and gouging.

Quote :

"7,860"

in millions is 7,860,000,000. I'm not crying for a company that is making more than 1 billion dollars a month.

[Edited on September 15, 2006 at 11:35 AM. Reason : .]

9/15/2006 11:33:27 AM

Quote :

"ou were still comparing NY prices (the 3.00) to NC prices (2.00)"

how dumb are you?? seriuosly??...i am not comparing prices in NY to prices here...were prices here up over 3 dollars?? are they now much much less than that??....get past it....your arguement about my comparison is not relevant at all..in fact it just shows how ignorant you are

Quote :

"And for fuckssake. Over this summer, Exxon was making 1 billion dollars a month. "

so the real problem is that you are against people making this much money right??

Quote :

" there is profit, then there is collusion and gouging."

case closed my friends...he is an idiot who knows absolutely nothing about economics....just read this statement....case closed

9/15/2006 11:37:32 AM

and paying 23,225,000,000 a QUARTER (not month) in taxes. Man if you think that's fair, why don't you divy up the proportions and then divide your check according to those, and donate that percentage to the government?


Why wouldn't you want to do that?

9/15/2006 11:41:48 AM

Quote :

"how dumb are you?? seriuosly??...i am not comparing prices in NY to prices here...were prices here up over 3 dollars?? are they now much much less than that??....get past it....your arguement about my comparison is not relevant at all..in fact it just shows how ignorant you are"

Where were you a few months ago and where are you now?

Quote :

" so the real problem is that you are against people making this much money right??"

my problem is the closed market that allows these companies to violate the consumer.

Quote :

"case closed my friends...he is an idiot who knows absolutely nothing about economics....just read this statement....case closed "

you need to learn the difference between a fee market and a closed market.

Quote :

"and paying 23,225,000,000 a QUARTER (not month) in taxes. Man if you think that's fair, why don't you divy up the proportions and then divide your check according to those, and donate that percentage to the government? Why wouldn't you want to do that?"

And yet they are still making over 7 billion a quarter. You will not find much sympathy for a company taking in 7 billion after taxes. And while we are at it, why won't Exxon pay what they are supposed to to the federal government and alaska to pay for the Valdez clean up?

9/15/2006 12:02:23 PM

Violating what consumer? A mom and pop grocery store making a 15% profit margin is violating their consumer in a greater fashion than the alleged violation going on with exxon.

9/15/2006 12:06:14 PM

Quote :

"Violating what consumer? A mom and pop grocery store making a 15% profit margin is violating their consumer in a greater fashion than the alleged violation going on with exxon."

americans everywhere are consumers. The end user.

and gas stations make barely any money on gasoline. They make their money on the concessions in their store and such.

9/15/2006 12:09:37 PM

such a shame that gasoline stations can barely make it in this cruel world... why, that's rather hard to believe since they're on every fucking street corner in america.


and grocery stores make about 2c per item they sell in profit. The station might not get much per gallon, but multiply that by the number of gallons they pump...


you're so short sighted. You refuse to see the big picture... absolutely refuse to see it.

[Edited on September 15, 2006 at 12:25 PM. Reason : .]

9/15/2006 12:23:56 PM

Quote :

"such a shame that gasoline stations can barely make it in this cruel world... why, that's rather hard to believe since they're on every fucking street corner in america. and grocery stores make about 2c per item they sell in profit. The station might not get much per gallon, but multiply that by the number of gallons they pump... you're so short sighted. You refuse to see the big picture... absolutely refuse to see it. "

the oil companies make the money fom the gasoline sales. I'm more concerned about the small business owner than large multinatinals.

and I'm not the short sighted one. You are. You think oil companies are altruistic and would never fuck over the consumer just to pad their bottom line.

9/15/2006 1:17:40 PM

Quote :

" Where were you a few months ago and where are you now?"

i was in NY a couple months ago...and im in NC now...what does that have to do with anything?? a few months ago gas prices werew very high in NY...now they are much lower....a few months ago gas prices were very high in NC...now they are much lower...how on earth can you still be arguing this with me?? feel free to ask me about that agian...im done with it....EVERYWHERE in the US....a few months ago gas prices were very high...now...they are much lower....that in not up for debate

Quote :

"my problem is the closed market that allows these companies to violate the consumer. "

no your real problem is that the oil companies are good at what they do and they have agood product and they make more money than you think they should be allowed to...the thing is your not a believe in the free market...so i would expect that from you

Quote :

"the oil companies make the money fom the gasoline sales. I'm more concerned about the small business owner than large multinatinals. and I'm not the short sighted one. You are. You think oil companies are altruistic and would never fuck over the consumer just to pad their bottom line. "

we are concerned with ourselves. why are youso concerned with intruding on the free market? and no we dont think oil companies are altruistic. but you have no proof that oil companies are screwing the consumer. they are not going to give away gas for free. they are out to make a profit. if you dont like how high thier profits are...dont buy gas from them...

9/15/2006 1:30:19 PM

Quote :

"the oil companies make the money fom the gasoline sales."

THEY SHOULD YOU FUCKING IDIOT! IF I PRODUCE SOMETHING, I SHOULD REAP THE BENEFITS NOT THE RESELLER.



HOLY MOTHER OF GOD YOU'RE A RETARD.

9/15/2006 2:01:29 PM

Quote :

"i was in NY a couple months ago...and im in NC now...what does that have to do with anything?? a few months ago gas prices werew very high in NY...now they are much lower....a few months ago gas prices were very high in NC...now they are much lower...how on earth can you still be arguing this with me?? feel free to ask me about that agian...im done with it....EVERYWHERE in the US....a few months ago gas prices were very high...now...they are much lower....that in not up for debate"

a couple months ago, gas was not 3 something a gallon in NC. Therefore your little comparison has no weight because it assumes gas prices are the same no matter where you are in the country, which is patently false. If you can't understand this concept then I feel for you. Sure gas prices are down, but they are not down a dollar as you attempt to make it seem.

Quote :

"no your real problem is that the oil companies are good at what they do and they have agood product and they make more money than you think they should be allowed to...the thing is your not a believe in the free market...so i would expect that from you"

you are right about something. oil companies are good at colluding and gouging the american consumer. this will continue as long as the government doesn't do anything about it and as long as no competition arises to threaten the strangle hold oil companies have on the energy sector.

Quote :

"we are concerned with ourselves. why are youso concerned with intruding on the free market? and no we dont think oil companies are altruistic. but you have no proof that oil companies are screwing the consumer. they are not going to give away gas for free. they are out to make a profit. if you dont like how high thier profits are...dont buy gas from them... "

I think having heretofore profits that no other sector, not even the oil companies have experienced is gouging and screwing the customer. Remember a few years back when enron purposefully shut down power plants then staged fake brown outs in california to make more money? and it is very hard to not buy gas from the oil companies since there is no independent competitor to the oil companies. How is someone to compete in a market that has been closed for 100 years?

Quote :

"THEY SHOULD YOU FUCKING IDIOT! IF I PRODUCE SOMETHING, I SHOULD REAP THE BENEFITS NOT THE RESELLER. HOLY MOTHER OF GOD YOU'RE A RETARD."

you are right you should reap the profit. however, the profit is illegally gain considering the collusion. With oil the price it is now, you would think with the raise in gas prices the oil companies would be making about the same they've always make, give and take a little for inflation and increased consumption, but as it stands the profits completely surpass what should be expected. That and they have a fucking monopoly on the oil market.

[Edited on September 15, 2006 at 2:05 PM. Reason : .]

9/15/2006 2:03:22 PM

Dude, can you honestly say that the oil companies will continue to gouge unless the government does something about it when i SHOWED YOU THAT THE GOVERNMENT MAKES MORE MONEY FROM OIL SALES THAN THE OIL COMPANIES PROFIT? ARE YOU BEING SERIOUS?

9/15/2006 2:04:46 PM

Quote :

"a couple months ago, gas was not 3 something a gallon in NC."

are you going to tell me that when gas went on its little spike that it has been on for the past year or whatever it has been...that gas in nc did not reach well into the 3 dollar range??

also...everything else you posted is nothing more than hippie liberal ranting against the evil corporations until you show me some proof that there is collusion going on. and no...the fact there gas companies make a profit is NOT proof that there is collusion.

[Edited on September 15, 2006 at 2:06 PM. Reason : asdf]

9/15/2006 2:05:16 PM

Quote :

"Dude, can you honestly say that the oil companies will continue to gouge unless the government does something about it when i SHOWED YOU THAT THE GOVERNMENT MAKES MORE MONEY FROM OIL SALES THAN THE OIL COMPANIES PROFIT? ARE YOU BEING SERIOUS?"

taxation is not the proper means of correcting the gouging.

Quote :

"are you going to tell me that when gas went on its little spike that it has been on for the past year or whatever it has been...that gas in nc did not reach well into the 3 dollar range??"

not as high as you claimed it did. Fact of the matter is, gas in NC will never be as expensive as gas in NY.

Quote :

"also...everything else you posted is nothing more than hippie liberal ranting against the evil corporations until you show me some proof that there is collusion going on. and no...the fact there gas companies make a profit is NOT proof that there is collusion."

calling me a hippie doesn't strengthen your claim. It weakens it, it's a logical fallacy. If you want evidence of collusion, look at how much they are making and compare it to the markets history. It stands that the oil companies are making more money at a rate higher than ever seen before.

[Edited on September 15, 2006 at 2:08 PM. Reason : .]

9/15/2006 2:06:37 PM

Quote :

"taxation is not the proper means of correcting the gouging."

If the taxes weren't so outrageous, the prices would be lower, and i wouldn't hear you whine about how the oil companies with their 10.5% profit margin are raping you.


you have no idea what you're talking about.

9/15/2006 2:08:03 PM

I NEVER SAID THAT GAS IN NC IS AS HIGH AS IT IS IN NY!!!! FUCK!!!

gas prices were high here...they were high in ny...across the board...they were high...now they are lower!!! what dont you get!!!1 prices went up...they went down

calling you a hippie liberal is exactly what you are...and that explains why you have the stance you do...like i said..the fact that they have a high profit is not proof OR even evidence of gauging....what else you got??

[Edited on September 15, 2006 at 2:10 PM. Reason : asdf]

9/15/2006 2:08:46 PM

Quote :

"If the taxes weren't so outrageous, the prices would be lower, and i wouldn't hear you whine about how the oil companies with their 10.5% profit margin are raping you. you have no idea what you're talking about. "

I really feel bad for a company that makes 7 billion dollars a quarter. I do. I really really feel sorry for them and their being taxed.

Quote :

"I NEVER SAID THAT GAS IN NC IS AS HIGH AS IT IS IN NY!!!! FUCK!!! gas prices were high here...they were high in ny...across the board...they were high...now they are lower!!! what dont you get!!!1 prices went up...they went down"

But you were trying to pass it off as if they were. If you cannot understand how to think and form coherent and germane thoughts then I suggest you work on it. Also, that makes your price comparison factually incorrect.

[Edited on September 15, 2006 at 2:09 PM. Reason : .]

9/15/2006 2:08:54 PM

Quote :

" I really feel bad for a company that makes 7 billion dollars a quarter. I do. I really really feel sorry for them and their being taxed."

PROPORTION MORON! They spend 100b a quarter manufacturing. 7b isn't that gigantic of a piece.

You spend $100 to buy a piece of equipment that yields you $7. Is that unfair?

9/15/2006 2:12:41 PM

hey buddy...if you are goinkg to make strawman arguments all day...and claim that profits equal collusion then i really do feel bad for you...your mind is so far gone that you have no concept or reality whatsoever...

facts...you have no proof...zero that there is any sort of collusion going on
gas prices were high across the country....now they are lower....that you cant read something and understand what the writer is saying is not my fault

in spite of all the idiocy that you have posted here today..you have yet to prove anything...all you have said is..."i think there is collusion"...."why is that nutsmacker"...."because oil companies are bad and make lots of money"

i await your evidence...please post it

Quote :

"Also, that makes your price comparison factually incorrect. "

any price comparison that you are dreaming of between NC and NY is a product of your imagination. All i have said is that prices in NY and NC were very high...and now they are much much lower...so, in fact, my price comparison is exactly right...

please post evidence of collusion...profit /= collusion

[Edited on September 15, 2006 at 2:16 PM. Reason : adsf]

9/15/2006 2:13:09 PM

capitalism is evil, didn't you know that trikk? Evidence? HAH! Who needs evidence? I feel it is evil.

9/15/2006 2:15:22 PM

Quote :

"hey buddy...if you are goinkg to make strawman arguments all day...and claim that profits equal collusion then i really do feel bad for you...your mind is so far gone that you have no concept or reality whatsoever... facts...you have no proof...zero that there is any sort of collusion going on gas prices were high across the country....now they are lower....that you cant read something and understand what the writer is saying is not my fault in spite of all the idiocy that you have posted here today..you have yet to prove anything...all you have said is..."i think there is collusion"...."why is that nutsmacker"...."because oil companies are bad and make lots of money" i await your evidence...please post it"

It's a closed system. The fact that they have gotten into trouble in the past suggests they are not beyond doing it now or in the future.

Insulting me and reducing yourself to logical fallacies does not mean I am using strawmans. In fact, I don't even think you know what a strawman is.

And I never said capitalism is wrong. capitalism that functions within a free market is great. the fact of the matter is, the oil companies do not function within a free market. They function in a closed market.

9/15/2006 2:18:20 PM

wrong. capitalism with government interference reduces the power of the free market.



Or did you miss that class too?

9/15/2006 2:21:19 PM

Quote :

"The fact that they have gotten into trouble in the past suggests they are not beyond doing it now or in the future. "

you are correct. it is not, however, evidence that they are doing it now. please post some evidence.

Quote :

"Insulting me and reducing yourself to logical fallacies does not mean I am using strawmans. In fact, I don't even think you know what a strawman is."

ok....you obviuosly know exactly what they are since most of what you have posted is one...please stick to refuting arguments that i have actually made and you wont have a problem

please post evidence of collusions

9/15/2006 2:21:24 PM

I actually would like to see the collusion evidence too, please. Want me to save you some time? Don't look... there isn't any evidence.





[Edited on September 15, 2006 at 2:24 PM. Reason : .]

9/15/2006 2:23:38 PM

^^no, government regulations serve to open the market. companies wish to function within closed markets because they can charge as much as they want for the product that way.


^how many times do I have to say it. Compare the history of their profit earnings. they are making far much more money then the historical evidence suggests they should. Also, they've been called before congress about the matter a plethora of times.

I don't undersand why conservatives view corporations and angelic entities beyond illegal market constraints.


And why don't you people answer my question. why is exxon refusing to repay the federal government and the alaskan government for the valdez clean up?

here is evidence of collusion in canada http://www.direct.ca/trinity/gasprices2.html

[Edited on September 15, 2006 at 2:26 PM. Reason : .]

9/15/2006 2:24:49 PM

^^true....but


nutsmacker...please post evidence of collusion....until then this is nothing more than hippie liberal ranting...OMG ADHOMIRIANEFAIEFNIEWAFAEWFAKF!!!!!! ITS ALL ILLEGIT!!!

Quote :

"how many times do I have to say it. Compare the history of their profit earnings. they are making far much more money then the historical evidence suggests they should. Also, they've been called before congress about the matter a plethora of times."

like i said...profit...even lots of it...does not mean collusion

conservatives dont think that....we just want some proof that they are doing something wrong? why do hippie liberals think all oil companies are the devil??

[Edited on September 15, 2006 at 2:28 PM. Reason : asdf]

9/15/2006 2:26:21 PM

can't you follow a link?

9/15/2006 2:29:07 PM

Quote :

"here is evidence of collusion in canada http://www.direct.ca/trinity/gasprices2.html "

are you kidding me?? did you even read that? is that the best your google search came up with??

9/15/2006 2:30:19 PM

Quote :

"no, government regulations serve to open the market. companies wish to function within closed markets because they can charge as much as they want for the product that way."

oh my God, you couldn't be more wrong.

Dude, for real, I'm going to stop talking here in hopes that you will read an econ book and realize how morbidly retarded your last statement is.

example (minimum wage here, but the lines are the same for anything else... it shows how gov. interference in the market breaks down the purpose of the free market (in this case, implementing a minimum wage actuallys results in greater unemployment... who gets the ax? the people working the low wage jobs... same goes with subsidies, tariffs, etc.)



[Edited on September 15, 2006 at 2:31 PM. Reason : .]

9/15/2006 2:30:36 PM

nutsmacker....abornio is right..i dont intend to dignify your just plain ignorance any more. please go read an econ book and come up with some real arguments. Something more than "omg they make so much money"

9/15/2006 2:32:28 PM

yup and the motor companies didn't leave the corvair on the market or the pint on the market after learning about the serious danger those automobiles provided.


CORPORATIONS WILL NEVER DO ANYtHING WRONG.

and please refute the information in that post rather than just say, "you're wrong, oil companies will never collude amongst themselves."

Quote :

"oh my God, you couldn't be more wrong. Dude, for real, I'm going to stop talking here in hopes that you will read an econ book and realize how morbidly retarded your last statement is. example (minimum wage here, but the lines are the same for anything else... it shows how gov. interference in the market breaks down the purpose of the free market (in this case, implementing a minimum wage actuallys results in greater unemployment... who gets the ax? the people working the low wage jobs... same goes with subsidies, tariffs, etc.)"

I'm talking about monopolies you stupid fucking cunt. Now trikk, that post is an example of a strawman argument.

[Edited on September 15, 2006 at 3:24 PM. Reason : .]

9/15/2006 3:23:33 PM

those who commented on the hydrogen-gas powered bmw 7-series, please check out this fully hydrogen powered car by GM:

http://brentroad.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=432400

9/15/2006 5:11:01 PM

Quote :

"$1.15 for gas will do NOTHING to the profits of the oil companies."

I just wanted to fix one thing. Oil companies own more than just refineries. While it is true that refineries earn about the same profit at $70 oil as they do at $10 oil, the same cannot be sail for the owners of oil wells.

While Exxon and BP own a lot of pipelines and refineries they ALSO own lots of oil wells. For the owner of an oil well in America (the most expensive in the world) costs are about $15 a barrel to drill/pump/ship oil. So, when the price is $18 a barrel they make $5, a margin of 17%. However, when oil shoots up to $70 their profit margin soars to 78%.

The reason oil companies historically earn very small margins is because oil is never this high AND because oil refining is even less profitable than people think.

Thank you, that is all, carry on.

9/15/2006 7:37:34 PM

Oil seemed plenty profitable this summer.

9/15/2006 7:50:48 PM

Quote :

"yup and the motor companies didn't leave the corvair on the market or the pint on the market after learning about the serious danger those automobiles provided."

does this have anything to do with the market? At all?






And to the point of the owners of the wells:

So this would prove that the problem with high gas prices is due to the fact that the majority of the worlds oil wells exist overseas. If prices are high, it is most likely due to OPEC and others, not the American oil companies.

9/15/2006 8:03:42 PM

Quote :

"does this have anything to do with the market? At all? "

nice of you to follow along, but that statement had nothing to do with the markets but was a comment on the altruism of corporations.

9/16/2006 1:03:00 AM

"Oil Companies"
Note the "ies" instead of the "y"
The Oil companies have no interest in curtailing production because Saudi Arabia is the marginal producer, not western oil companies. Therefore, because the oil companies are not curtailing production they cannot be either a monopoly or a trust.

Think about it: Saudi Arabia can export as much oil as it feels like (well, eventually it can). So, let us imagine the western oil companies colluded to reduce production by a million barrels a day in order to drive the price up. However, Saudi Arabia was already happy with the previous price (otherwise it would have cut production), so, the net effect is Saudi Arabia will just export an extra million barrels a day to fill the hole and prevent the price from rising. Net effect, western oil firms lose Saudi Arabia gains.

9/16/2006 9:51:58 AM