More acrobatics and bullshit.

If you didn't want to enter into any mode of explanation, then you shouldn't have even entered the thread. You started by trying to explain something with your Bible quote. When I expressed disagreement, you claimed that it's simply "my problem" and beated an immediate and total retreat.

Weak shit, man.

9/17/2006 4:38:10 PM

Yeah Faggot, you are welcome to "win" this

9/17/2006 4:38:44 PM

It's not about winning. It's about getting it right.

The only people who made this a win/lose situation are you guys, and you handed yourself the loss. Fucking amazing.

9/17/2006 4:42:25 PM

you're right, its in my mind that you seek out threads on religion so you can troll and win them

you win again man

9/17/2006 4:45:37 PM

^ do you live behind mitches tavern

9/17/2006 4:48:32 PM

Soon to be replacing "$" for the official sign of money:

9/17/2006 4:50:19 PM

Quote :

"^ do you live behind mitches tavern"

kinda, i guess
i live in that general vicinity

9/17/2006 4:54:11 PM

It's cute how they get so scared that something I might say will keep them up at night. Still waiting for that IM.

9/17/2006 4:56:43 PM

you got that e-30 all ragged out with the roll cage in it

9/17/2006 5:02:03 PM

Well things took a bad turn, but I'll go ahead and share my beliefs on the subject. First of all, I've never heard of the "eye of a needle"="small passage in the mountains". *shrug*

In any case, I don't think being rich means going straight to hell. I certainly believe that if someone made wealth their sole goal in life and placed it above the needs of their family and helping others it would be un-Christian, so to speak. After all, "the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil"(1 Timothy 6:10). But according to the Bible, no one on earth is qualified to say who will or will not get into heaven. Jesus said this when he said "Judge not, lest ye be judged". Paul backs this up when he says:

Quote :

"I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God."

-I Corinthians 4

GREED is what can cause people to go to hell. I believe when Jesus was saying that it's difficult for a rich man to get into heaven he was referring to the power and corruption that comes with having lots of money. So if a man's riches causes him to go to hell, I would suspect that it might be because he spent his life thinking himself better than others, exploiting the poor to increase his wealth, never trying to give back to the community, and using his wealth to protect himself as he committed crimes and/or atrocities. If a rich man used his wealth to help others, setting up organizations to help the destitute or giving his money to pre-existing organizations, God might very well applaud him.

After all, what's the point in giving away everything you own, if it goes to waste? Isn't that part of the problem with our welfare system, that some people receive money from the government but don't spend it wisely? Wouldn't it be better and less selfish to try to really help others in a meaningful way?

I am of the mindset that you can't look at one single fact about someone's life and say "You're going to hell." I resent people who do that. God will be the true judge of a person's character and clearly understand what motivates a person.

Dang, that took a long time.

9/17/2006 5:33:31 PM

Antonio, you have a couple of pretty valid points -- but let me bring forward one objection:

Quote :

"After all, what's the point in giving away everything you own, if it goes to waste? Isn't that part of the problem with our welfare system, that some people receive money from the government but don't spend it wisely? Wouldn't it be better and less selfish to try to really help others in a meaningful way?"

In all fairness, Jesus doesn't say "sell all that you own -- except in the case when you could do more good if you kept the money."

9/17/2006 5:40:51 PM

Well, it wouldn't be unreasonable to say that Jesus might have meant that order specifically for that man. However, new converts also gave away all their goods (I think this happened in Acts). Things are very different now. While many people are poor, in the developed nations a majority of them have a roof over their heads and food to eat (even if very little).

I think the larger message would be "Be eager to give and don't become wrapped up in your worldly possessions." Doing that means something different in this day and age IMO. Don't get me wrong, I don't think we should have the mindset of that man mentioned at the beginning of the Time article. That's outrageous. But if someone really sets their heart and mind on using their wealth to help other people, actively going out and making things happen instead of throwing money at a problem and walking away, I believe they are doing a good (and therefore Christian) thing. And this:

Quote :

"Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.""

Cannot be overlooked. Jesus could have said "It's easier to walk on water than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven." Both that and getting a camel to enter the eye of a needle are impossible for man, but the Bible states through God both things can happen.

9/17/2006 6:22:44 PM

Jesus wasn't a capitalist, he was a humanist.

9/17/2006 6:38:10 PM

actually its not impossible for a camel to enter the eye of a needle, its just really difficult

but thats one of those understanding the context thing and knowing what they are talking about

9/17/2006 7:55:00 PM

Quote :

"Well, it wouldn't be unreasonable to say that Jesus might have meant that order specifically for that man."

What level of interpretation do you want to entertain with the scriptures, and which interpretation is holiest?

Quote :

"However, new converts also gave away all their goods (I think this happened in Acts). Things are very different now. While many people are poor, in the developed nations a majority of them have a roof over their heads and food to eat (even if very little)."

So the rules of the Bible change depending on the time? How do we know what rules to keep, and which to amend because things are too different and hard now?

Quote :

"I think the larger message would be "Be eager to give and don't become wrapped up in your worldly possessions.""

I'd agree with you -- but for people who want the Bible to be literal, the plain language of this passage presents a problem.

Quote :

"Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.""

Not all things are possible with God. There are things that God cannot do, by definition.

Quote :

"actually its not impossible for a camel to enter the eye of a needle, its just really difficult"

What if its a needle that giants use to knit their huge clothes, and the eye is really ten feet tall and five feet wide!!!111 Shut the fuck up, you add nothing to this discussion. Your floundering intellect is embarassing.

[Edited on September 17, 2006 at 8:08 PM. Reason : .]

9/17/2006 8:06:30 PM

the traditional understanding is that the eye of a needle is either a gate or a narrow passage where to get a camel through one must first stop the camel and take off all of the packs. so its possible but difficult.

another explanation is a linguistic one that points out that the word actually means rope (which has a similar name because the rope is made from camel hair).

[Edited on September 17, 2006 at 8:28 PM. Reason : retard]

9/17/2006 8:28:26 PM

they had needles in the bible

9/17/2006 8:38:05 PM

who gives a shit about this?

9/17/2006 8:40:40 PM

I DO ASS HOLE

9/17/2006 8:42:50 PM

Quote :

"the traditional understanding is that the eye of a needle is either a gate or a narrow passage where to get a camel through one must first stop the camel and take off all of the packs. so its possible but difficult."

No kidding. Sell all your possessions is the message. What's hard to understand about the allegory of Jesus' life? There's a reason the guy didn't have anything -- it was intentional.

In either case here, Jesus asks the rich to shed their possessions. This isn't rocket science.

9/17/2006 9:00:11 PM

youre the one that brought up the needle giants use on their huge clothes you damn water baby

9/17/2006 9:14:22 PM

I was doing it to make fun of your "well... it IS possible because ANYTHING is possible with God" bullshit escape tactic.

Not everything is possible with God. Think about it for more than 15 seconds, and you can come up with at least one example.

9/17/2006 9:18:12 PM

i said it was possible because of what it means you moron
i even explained why

9/17/2006 9:19:52 PM

And in explaining why validated my earlier point -- Jesus wants the rich to give up what they own. It can't get any more clear than the language he uses.

9/17/2006 9:20:51 PM

this allegory is pretty clear

9/17/2006 9:22:06 PM

Yes. Give up what you own. Can't get much clearer. So why don't Christians do it? Probably because it's not as convenient as hating faggots.

9/17/2006 9:23:00 PM

im agreeing with you that they are wrong, if you ask them about it they're all "OMG PARABLE OF THE TALENTS, OMG HE WANTS ME TO GET RICH"

Jesus was basically a socialist

9/17/2006 9:25:03 PM

Yeah he was a pinko alright. That's why so many Christians ignore him.

9/17/2006 9:28:03 PM

Quote :

"So the rules of the Bible change depending on the time? How do we know what rules to keep, and which to amend because things are too different and hard now?"

Quote :

"I'd agree with you -- but for people who want the Bible to be literal, the plain language of this passage presents a problem."

This scripture puts it best:

Quote :

"The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself.""

-Romans 13:9

In this case, we should take what Jesus is saying about riches and apply it to own lives that rule.

I think taking the Bible literally would be a mistake. As it is, 'rich' is a subjective term anyway. The message behind it is more important.

9/17/2006 9:28:33 PM

So Jesus didn't mean what he said when he told the man to give up everything he owned? Or was he being remarkably harsh on that one guy because he didn't like him?

Quote :

" I think taking the Bible literally would be a mistake."

Agreed and that's mostly the stance I'm refuting.

Love your neighbor as yourself is a good rule -- one that isn't grounded in any particular religion, but mostly common sense.

9/17/2006 9:36:09 PM

Mark 12:28-31
Now one of the experts in the law came and heard them debating. When he saw that Jesus answered them well, he asked him, “Which commandment is the most important of all?” 29 Jesus answered, “The most important is: ‘Listen, Israel, the Lord our God is one. 30 Love the Lord your God with your whole heart, with your whole soul, with your whole mind, and with your whole strength.’ 31 The second is: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

9/17/2006 9:40:55 PM

I have no problem with most of what Christ preached. Some of the shit is far out there -- shit I wouldn't do (and yes, I hold Biblical literalists to that standard).

Most of what I disagree with in Christianity comes in the epistles.

9/17/2006 9:50:23 PM

i guess im a fairly devout christian (though no literalist) but damn i think paul was a choad

9/17/2006 10:06:02 PM

Quote :

"Known (or vilified) under a variety of names--Word of Faith, Health and Wealth, Name It and Claim It, Prosperity Theology--its emphasis is on God's promised generosity in this life and the ability of believers to claim it for themselves. In a nutshell, it suggests that a God who loves you does not want you to be broke. Its signature verse could be John 10: 10: "I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly." In a TIME poll, 17% of Christians surveyed said they considered themselves part of such a movement, while a full 61% believed that God wants people to be prosperous. And 31%--a far higher percentage than there are Pentecostals in America--agreed that if you give your money to God, God will bless you with more money. "

9/17/2006 10:07:42 PM

Christ understood that in order for that man to achieve salvation that was necessary. I really think that was meant for him and the overall message is something deeper concerning charity and materialism.

9/17/2006 10:15:35 PM

"No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." [Luke 16:13]

9/18/2006 5:28:14 AM

I've always considered the love of money to be the sin, not the possession of it. That is why it is hard but not impossible for the rich man to enter heaven. Hard because the rich man will have a greater predisposition to place the accumulation of riches first in their life but not impossible because the simple act of having riches does not guarantee that you will put them before God.

In this case Jesus was able to discern that the rich man's heart was focused on wealth and it would appear to have been the case because the man was saddened at what he was told. Jesus was teaching the rich man a lesson and the man was able to learn that he would rather keep his riches than have eternal life.

I think the lesson here is that people have to be willing to give up anything in order to attain eternal life. They have to prove to God and themselves that they are willing to put God before all things. If riches are your sticking point you have to be willing to give them up. If you are poor and having too much pride to ask for help is your sticking point then you have to be willing to overcome that.

9/18/2006 7:45:31 AM

^that's the most plausable stand on the issue in the entire thread so far

9/18/2006 10:36:16 AM

^^^^^^ and ^^^^^^^ what are your beefs with paul and the epistles?

9/18/2006 12:40:42 PM

Mother Theresa was destitute.

/thread

9/18/2006 12:53:22 PM

for those of us who aren't ncsu students anymore and aren't subscribers, could someone please paste the full text of the article? i'm interested in reading it.

9/18/2006 1:47:05 PM

http://www4.ncsu.edu/~agbrunso/timesarticle.txt

It was too long to post. Probably want to open it in WordPad or something

[Edited on September 18, 2006 at 2:36 PM. Reason : stupid tags]

9/18/2006 2:36:26 PM

jbtilley has a good interpretation of the passage. It's also a good demonstration of how having a literalist interpretation is inconsistent. However, it's a good way to read it, and I like it.

As far as BigDave's concern -- what's my beef with Paul? How long you got? Hahaha.. that would require a whole new thread and a lot of time.

9/18/2006 5:39:53 PM

Quote :

"I love how fundies think that the Bible is the absolute, literal word of God. Until there's a passage that's not conducive to their lifestyle. Then they're all "OMG IT WAS A METAPHOR FOR SOMETHING COMPLETELY UNRELATED TO WEALTH LOL" "

Good point. The Bible is basically the literal word of God.
II Timothy 3:16 - "All scriptire is God breathed..."

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Matthew 6:19-21 - "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where theives break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where theives do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

9/18/2006 11:32:24 PM

^word

[Edited on September 19, 2006 at 12:29 AM. Reason : to the Matthew passage]

9/19/2006 12:29:17 AM

there is nothing wrong with owning posessions - it's when the posessions own you, and you focus your whole life and energy on obtaining or keeping them.

9/19/2006 10:11:30 AM

My View of Material Wealth
I can honestly say that if I didn't have certain material temptations in life, I'd be a lot less stressed out and more focused on the more important things. There is something spiritual and powerful about denying one self of material pleasures and being wise when it comes to fulfilling your material needs.

Quote :

"Luke 12:27-31: 27"Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 28If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today, and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith! 29And do not set your heart on what you will eat or drink; do not worry about it. 30For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them. 31But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well. "

Reminds me of an article I read once. They had this poll of people from all over the world. And people rated how happy there were. Parts of Africa and South America ranked among the most happy. Amazingly they have very little materially.

Our Sister Church in Nairobi, Africa
Our church sponsors a sister church in Nairobi, Africa. They literally have nothing in a material sense, but in a spiritual sense they are overflowing with wealth. Some members from our church visited recently and came back with a convicting documentary video...

There was this family who owned their own "house" and it had a "kitchen". The "house" consisted of tin walls and a tin roof. The "kitchen" was a big keg of water and a wooden platform. They are definately more grateful for what they have than I am. Sometimes I complain about my badly designed stainless steel sink because the handle comes out to horizontally and I can't get in there with large pots or bottles.

Another thing that amazed me about our sister church in Africa is that they walk to church. Ten miles or more. They wake up at 6am to walk to church at 10am. This included ALL family members. Even the little 2 year olds. And when church was done, they sat around for the rest of the afternoon, played volleyball on an old torn up net, studied their bibles together, and ate lunch together. Of course, lunch consisted of a bland mix of maze and soy.

My Convictions on God and Money
Fact #1: If you really believe that God exists, then logically, God DOES NOT need ANYTHING from you.
Fact #2: You give money because of these three reasons that are layed out in 2 Corinthians 9:6-15 ...

1) Sacrafice - http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=sacrifice
2) Serve the poor - That's where most of the money should be going. To the needy. Not to the preacher's Escalade or the stained glass windows.
3) Gratitude - Thankfulness for the ultimate gift and sacrafice, Jesus.

NOT for these reasons:
- So you can get more money back from God
- So the preacher/members will give you a pat on the back
- So that you'll feel less guilty about your sins
- So you can claim it on your taxes and get tax breaks




Oh snap! I forgot... On that note:

Possession Sale: Hundreds of people gonna be selling all their junk at the church building... come and buy it! One man's junk, another man's treasure. All proceeds go to support churches in Africa.
Time: 7:00am - 12:00 pm
Location:
5510 Barbee Chapel Road
Chapel Hill, NC 27514

Asian Food Fundraiser: My wife is going to be making some of her famous fried spring rolls! You've never had an egg roll this good. It's not like those cabbage filled chinese restaraunt pieces of junk. This is the real deal. All proceeds go to support churches in Africa.
Link to flier: http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y3/genkidama20/fundraiser_flyer.jpg

[Edited on September 19, 2006 at 3:21 PM. Reason : Help the po'!]

9/19/2006 3:04:34 PM

The whole point of that quote is that as a Christian you are supposed to put God first and then others before yourself (or at least love them as you love yourself). Having money is not bad, but it tends to be the case that when you have a lot of it you begin to make that your priority. It can lead to greed and selfishness, and some even idolize money. If you can be rich and use your money for good, and not let it control your life, then there is nothing wrong with it.

9/20/2006 10:50:21 AM

You know I read this yesterday at the oral surgeon's office. The people saying God wants them to be rich are making a huge jump in logic from "God wants to bless us" to "God wants us to bless us with money". Blessings come in all forms, not just $texas. Friends, family, health, peace, etc...all more valuble that money.

9/20/2006 11:00:25 AM

Quote :

"Having money is not bad, but it tends to be the case that when you have a lot of it you begin to make that your priority."

I'd just like to add that often when a person has a lot of money it is because they have already made it the priority.

9/20/2006 11:08:16 AM