Quote :

"If no one hired and paid illegal Mexicans, Mexicans would not come here."

i agree but its 2-sided...yes you should punish businesses that hire illegals knowingly

but the people who broke the law to come into this country in the first place need to be dealt with

Quote :

"people go where they can to get a job and go work to make money."

thats also fine...but why cant the illegals come here following the proper legal channels? and yes i know legally coming here and legally obtaining US citizenship can take some time, years even...but if you apply and go through the right channels you will get to work here legally while you are waiting for your citizenship procedures to go through

Quote :

"you could have voted in the amount of time it took you to write that crap"

6 one, half dozen the other...

10/2/2006 4:31:25 PM

I don't have a problem with immigrants. I refuse to get upset by something just because they're brown.

Look, I live in South Carolina. When someone comes here from Georgia for a job, I don't flip off the chain and be like "he took our jobs"

And I don't do it if he happens to be from further south. The whole issue is a bunch of whining. My party included. Lou Dobbs, every day I want to smack that man in the face.

10/2/2006 4:33:29 PM

I don't have a problem with immigrants who pay taxes and immigrate legally

10/2/2006 4:35:52 PM

The vast majority came here legally, they just never left.

Also, aside from income tax, illegal immigrants pay the same taxes as you. they pay sales tax, they pay gasoline taxes, don't pay property taxes but neither do I. and in a lot of cases, illegal immigrants pay into FICA but will never see a return on that payment. Your fear of illegal immigrants is an unjust fear.

10/2/2006 4:44:25 PM

How do you feel about all your tax dollars going to these people?

overcrowded hospitals and schools?

10/2/2006 5:16:01 PM

Quote :

"aside from income tax"

aside from the biggest tax there is...

10/2/2006 5:28:26 PM

Quote :

"I know a good number of people that consider themselves conservatives and do not care for the Republican Party. They only vote for them partially out of habit and partially to keep Democrats out of power."

yep, pretty much


i think a huge shift in GOP politics is coming as our generation gets more and more influential.

10/2/2006 5:51:44 PM

and you are expecting this to be a shift towards a more Libertarian like party?

10/2/2006 5:58:09 PM

Quote :

"I know a good number of people that consider themselves conservatives and do not care for the Republican Party."

I think this would generally apply to libertarians, of which I am not. It isn't just the party I've drifed from, it's conservatism in general. I don't want to shrink the Federal government to its core. There are a lot of programs I want reduced or eliminated, but there's others I want beefed up or implemented. I want taxes lowered -- on the middle and lower class -- and I want them jacked up on the rich, on inheritances, and other things. Etc., etc.

Basically at this point I'm an amalgam of the extremes of both sides.

Quote :

"How do you feel about all your tax dollars going to these people? "

Illegal immigrants generate more tax dollars than they receive in benefits.

[Edited on October 2, 2006 at 6:00 PM. Reason : ]

10/2/2006 5:59:36 PM

Quote :

"aside from the biggest tax there is..."

Of which they do not make enough money to actually pay. Illegal immigrants aren't raking in loads of cash. They live at or below the poverty line.

10/2/2006 6:09:32 PM

they pay sales tax

10/2/2006 6:16:03 PM

^^To say nothing of that fact that they bloody well would pay sales tax if we let them.

10/2/2006 6:16:55 PM

It sounds like you're a Blue Tory. Maybe you should move to Canada.


[Edited on October 2, 2006 at 6:36 PM. Reason : 2]

10/2/2006 6:34:26 PM

Social Security is one of the more infuriating taxes, in my book.

10/2/2006 6:48:41 PM

it'll be even more infuriating if they do away with it before our generation get s to draw from it, which I assume they will. Maybe they'll be nice and pay you back for some of what you put in, I would guess not though.

10/2/2006 6:51:39 PM

i wouldn't even care that much if they'd just go ahead and do it before i piss away any more of my money

although i'd prefer to get some of it back

10/2/2006 7:10:25 PM

Quote :

"I think this would generally apply to libertarians, of which I am not. It isn't just the party I've drifed from, it's conservatism in general. I don't want to shrink the Federal government to its core. There are a lot of programs I want reduced or eliminated, but there's others I want beefed up or implemented. I want taxes lowered -- on the middle and lower class -- and I want them jacked up on the rich, on inheritances, and other things. Etc., etc."

this is just about where i see myself. i see myself more in-line with greens though, because of my environmental stances. contrary to popular belief, green does not equal more taxes. former vice presidential candidate pat lamarche is running for gov. of maine under the promise of lower property taxes, for instance.

unfortunately, most base their opinion of the national party around the actions of campus groups, at least most people i talk to do. the campus group here got infiltrated and ruined by people who seriously wanted to turn it into some sort of revolutionary group. they were insane. i bet none of you have even read their stated goals on their website.

[Edited on October 2, 2006 at 7:21 PM. Reason : .]

10/2/2006 7:16:34 PM

Quote :

"and I want them jacked up on the rich, on inheritances, and other things"

Surely you can afford everything you want the government to do with 35% of rich people's money, right?

10/2/2006 11:25:20 PM

Maybe, maybe not.

10/3/2006 2:29:38 AM

GrumpyGOP...would you say that your political beliefs are closer to Clinton or Bush?

10/3/2006 3:56:52 AM

I think Grumpy has smoked himself LEFT

10/3/2006 6:29:13 AM

I quit smoking anything that might affect my worldview a long time ago.

And as to pryderi's question, I'm not sure. Clinton is certainly one of my favorite democrats.

10/3/2006 11:59:16 AM

Quote :

"Illegal immigrants generate more tax dollars than they receive in benefits."

One of the huge problems though is that they send TONS of the money out of country to families. Thats money which could be used to fuel our economy.

10/3/2006 1:16:58 PM

^ The same is true with money that goes to charities though.

10/3/2006 1:19:41 PM

Quote :

"One of the huge problems though is that they send TONS of the money out of country to families. Thats money which could be used to fuel our economy."

^^there is no such thing as "our economy" anymore. It's a worldwide economy now.

10/3/2006 1:22:15 PM

Plus, in 99% of cases, the Mexicans need it way more than us. I don't even see why people care about the sending-money-home thing. Is it wrong to help your family?

The US is the wealthiest country on the planet, we can afford a few bucks being sent back by some hispanics.

10/3/2006 1:51:53 PM

Quote :

"One of the huge problems though is that they send TONS of the money out of country to families. Thats money which could be used to fuel our economy."

This just represents a fundamental misunderstanding of economics.

10/3/2006 1:57:58 PM

Bye.

10/3/2006 4:07:03 PM

^wtf?

10/3/2006 4:13:44 PM

You sound like what I wish the democratic party stood for.

10/3/2006 4:16:09 PM

someone on the tele needs to do a parody where Lou Dobbs job gets outsourced

10/3/2006 6:33:54 PM

Quote :

"Illegal immigrants generate more tax dollars than they receive in benefits."

What? No they don't. Illegal immigrants, who are primarily poor, are a net drain on the federal government. Even though they do not typically recieve federal aid such as medicare, the strain they put on our infrastructure such as roads and prisons far outweighs the miniscule tax revenue that they contribute.

[Edited on October 3, 2006 at 7:04 PM. Reason : 2]

10/3/2006 6:54:05 PM

Quote :

"What? No they don't."

name the benefits and the tax they aren't paying that supports that benefit.

10/3/2006 7:04:06 PM

They pay sales tax like you and I. Some of them even pay income tax. However, like all poor people, they are a net drain on the government when averaging out how much it pays per capita.

10/3/2006 7:07:51 PM

give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses

10/3/2006 7:20:37 PM

Quote :

"However, like all poor people, they are a net drain on the government when averaging out how much it pays per capita."

As I asked, name the benefits they receive that are funded by taxes they do not pay.

10/3/2006 7:33:33 PM

from the Center for Immigration Studies

Quote :

"WASHINGTON (August 25, 2004) — A new study from the Center for Immigration Studies is one of the first to estimate the impact of illegal immigration on the federal budget. Based on Census Bureau data, the study estimates that households headed by illegal aliens used $10 billion more in government services than they paid in taxes in 2002. These figures are only for the federal government; costs at the state and local level are also likely to be significant. The study also finds that if illegals were given amnesty, the fiscal deficit at the federal level would grow to nearly $29 billion. Among the findings: Illegal alien households are estimated to use $2,700 a year more in services than they pay in taxes, creating a total fiscal burden of nearly $10.4 billion on the federal budget in 2002. Among the largest federal costs: Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion). If illegal aliens were legalized and began to pay taxes and use services like legal immigrants with the same education levels, the estimated annual fiscal deficit at the federal level would increase from $2,700 per household to nearly $7,700, for a total federal deficit of $29 billion. With nearly two-third of illegals lacking a high school diploma, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments — not their legal status or their unwillingness to work. Amnesty increases costs because illegals would still be largely unskilled, and thus their tax payments would continue to be very modest, but once legalized they would be able to access many more government services. The fact that legal immigrants with little schooling are a fiscal drain on federal coffers does not mean that legal immigrants overall are a drain. Many legal immigrants are highly skilled. Because many of the costs are due to their U.S.-born children, who are awarded U.S. citizenship at birth, barring illegals themselves from federal programs will not significantly reduce costs. Although they create a net drain on the federal government, the average illegal household pays more than $4,200 a year in federal taxes, for a total of nearly $16 billion. However, they impose annual costs of more than $26.3 billion, or about $6,950 per illegal household. About 43 percent, or $7 billion, of the federal taxes illegals pay go to Social Security and Medicare. Employers do not see the costs associated with less-educated immigrant workers because the costs are spread out among all taxpayers. "

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalrelease.html

10/3/2006 7:40:17 PM

Quote :

""One of the huge problems though is that they send TONS of the money out of country to families. Thats money which could be used to fuel our economy.""

Good, they get more money to help stabilize their economy. When their economy is better, they won't have a reason to come here. It's the same thing that Spain did in Europe.

10/3/2006 7:52:12 PM

Actually, studies show that remittances can harm a 3rd world economy by masking the structural problems that hinder it. It is on par with oil money, which can pump up an economy temporarily but ultimately leads to it's demise if underlying problems are ignored.

10/3/2006 8:15:37 PM

Quote :

" About 43 percent, or $7 billion, of the federal taxes illegals pay go to Social Security and Medicare. "

illegals don't get social security.

10/3/2006 8:40:04 PM

Indeed they don't.

What's your point?

10/3/2006 8:45:49 PM

^^^ Prawn Star is absolutely right, but last I heard Mexico was getting its shit together; and a 3rd world country with the right political and economic system could benefit mightily from remitances.

10/3/2006 9:45:58 PM

As long as they don't allow their economy to become dependent on it. It's odd that remitence and natural resource based economies are similar like that.

I wonder how much more effective a 2.2 billion dollar investment in the mexican economy would be compared to a 2.2 billion dollar fence. Considering that 2.2 billion dollar fence wouldn't cover the entire border and would just force immigrants to come in elsewhere...

[Edited on October 3, 2006 at 9:54 PM. Reason : ]

10/3/2006 9:49:56 PM

or, i dont' know CUT A HOLE IN THE FENCE or CLIMB OVER THE FENCE

10/3/2006 10:12:30 PM

Oh no, they're going to build an impenetrable fence. It'll be made out of adamantium so even mexican-wolverine can't cut through it.

10/3/2006 10:13:54 PM