NEVER TRUST EUROPEAN SOURCES. NO CUT AND RUN.

10/15/2006 7:58:38 PM

difference between "never trust europeans" and "perhaps this particular group of europeans might -- just might -- have the same sort of bias that some Americans have"

just saying

10/15/2006 8:19:01 PM

yeah. the release date of this study is a little suspect, especially since i have read that it was rushed to publication by the request of the author. but it's also the most extensive study of its kind done in iraq.

10/15/2006 8:21:57 PM

aren't you all so happy about this?

back in the day when i was saying dont vote for bush(2000), no one believed me

10/15/2006 8:59:44 PM

Quote :

"I'm not so terribly sure, and try not to go out of your way to say "a few" like that, it isn't becoming. Right now the large majority of the violence is between Iraqis, often enough without any relation to their association with us."

But we overthrew their government and have our troops on the ground. That's thrown the country into chaos. That motivates many Iraqis to fight. It's entirely possible the next dictator could have taken power relatively bloodlessly. It's even theoretically possible the government could have liberalized peacefully. It has happened in other countries.

Quote :

"How do you figure? Increasingly they ignore us and focus on blowing each other away. What factors would cause it to be a more laid-back massacre?"

For one thing, we directly caused the deaths of around two hundred thousand of them. If nothing else, they'd have that to make up for. Though, as you can see above, I don't believe Iraq's fate was so clearly determined.

10/15/2006 9:08:39 PM

^ I don't think it would have been siginifcantly more bloodless without america. Everything I've seen about it seems to suggest that the relative peace between the various factions had more to do with Sadam ruling with an iron fist than with any tollerance or love for one another. And revolutions that overthrough rulers like that tend to be bloody enough to begin with without adding in general civil conflict.

10/15/2006 10:33:29 PM

Quote :

"But we overthrew their government and have our troops on the ground. That's thrown the country into chaos."

You think it would have been substantially less chaotic if they overthrew their own government?

Quote :

"It's entirely possible the next dictator could have taken power relatively bloodlessly."

That's true. But, eventually, there would have been a massive internal conflict. You didn't seem to disagree with that point on the last page.

They might have put it off for a while, but eventually, the artificially designed nation of Iraq was going to implode.

Quote :

"It's even theoretically possible the government could have liberalized peacefully."

Not likely enough that I'm willing to bet on the possibility.

Quote :

"It has happened in other countries."

Not in post-WWII Middle Eastern ones.

Quote :

"For one thing, we directly caused the deaths of around two hundred thousand of them."

Whoa now, this is still far enough from a certainty that you don't need to be postulating it as fact.

10/15/2006 10:40:53 PM