This is now too long (page 2)

10/24/2006 11:36:33 AM

Quote :

"In addition, the primary purpose of your cover letter is to get the hiring official to look at your resume"

i think this only applies to certain jobs. if someone isnt willing to read a 2 page resume, why would they read a fully written out cover letter first?

just depends whether the application was solicited or not, how you are related to the company, etc. never hurts to have a bad cover letter that fleshes out your experience and how it relates to the job though.

10/24/2006 12:15:37 PM

there is so much bad information mixed in with the good in this thread - it's amusing

10/24/2006 12:17:20 PM

^Please summarize the good points in a post

I'm currently revising my resume and find this thread quite intriguing.

10/24/2006 12:44:17 PM

go talk to someone at the career center. it will be easier and probably more helpful the weeding through this mess.

10/24/2006 12:48:35 PM

1 page, if you are submitting via email you can maybe add a CV to your resume and cover letter. The CV can be 2.33 pages, and can provide some information that you couldn't fit on your resume.

[Edited on October 24, 2006 at 12:53 PM. Reason : dsf]

10/24/2006 12:52:52 PM

Quote :

"How do you expect me to fit all that in with my objective, skills, academic info, and references, which I currently do not list."

Tell me if I'm wrong anyone who is an HR manager or something, but the objective part seems unnecessary on resumes once you are out in industry for a while.

And academic info becomes more sparse in time. If you've been working for 10 years, no one cares that you were in intramural ultimate frisbee, but when you're right out of school you tend to pad your resume with junk like that because you don't really have much of substance to put there. I cut out Phi Beta Kappa from my resume after my first job, I only paid the $60 for some extra resume fluff.

10/24/2006 1:33:21 PM

I've heard from some people it is unnecessary, but it seems common from all the resumes I've seen, even those from people who have been in the industry 10+ years. I've moved the academic info to the bottom of my resume, but it still takes up a few lines.

Quote :

"If you've been working for 10 years, no one cares that you were in intramural ultimate frisbee, but when you're right out of school you tend to pad your resume with junk like that because you don't really have much of substance to put there."

I'm not really sure from where you got intramural ultimate frisbee. I had plenty of stuff to put on my resume right out of school. No padding was needed. Now that I have been out of school a little over a year the number of jobs I have had has doubled and therefore the size of my resume has increased to two pages.

10/24/2006 2:16:46 PM

I have a question. For those of you who think its ok for the resume to be 2 pages, do you require that the 2nd page be full like the first, or can it only have a few lines on it?
I guess I just think it would look tacky if the 2nd page was only half full.

10/24/2006 2:55:29 PM

At first mine was 1 page and change and that looked like shit so I managed to squeeze it all in to 1 page. Eventually it got to the point where I could not condense it any more, so now it is 2 full pages.

10/24/2006 3:03:41 PM

how come you guys have so many jobs in the period of 1 year. that doesnt sound like itd be very impressive unless you were being promoted constantly.

10/24/2006 4:58:13 PM

Quote :

"^Please summarize the good points in a post"

the point is that format/length is entirely dependent on who's reading it - there is no 1 CORRECT answer - there are good guidelines but everyone won't be happy - typically there are a lot of bad answers though

10/24/2006 5:05:53 PM

Quote :

"how come you guys have so many jobs in the period of 1 year. that doesnt sound like itd be very impressive unless you were being promoted constantly."

The first job out of college was a summer internship. I was promoted to full time contractor after two months.

Eight months later I got a full time salaried position elsewhere. I was progressing well at my current job , but there wasn't a ton of work so they decided to give me more responsibility and loan me out to another team for serveral months. I split my time about 80/20.

10/24/2006 5:20:25 PM

Here's something else to consider when submitting a resume, especially at a career fair: any sizeable company nowadays is going to scan your paper copy, and anyone who actually makes any hiring decisions is only going to see the electronic version. This leaves ample opportunity for extra pages to lose themselves in the process. For an entry level job, one uncluttered page is definately the way to go. As was mentioned earlier, all your resume is for is to get you an interview. Make it easy for someone to scan through for their "keywords" that they will look for whether you like it or not. If you can't cover everything in your resume, then put it in your cover letter (still not over a page). An even better idea is to have a resume tailored to each type of position you are looking for that only covers what they will care about and leaves out any unrelated experience. And by the way, things like "Eagle Scout" should never be left out, don't underestimate the value of a talking point for getting an interview.

10/24/2006 5:26:20 PM

Quote :

"it depends on if you are doing a resume or a ciriculum vitae."

Quote :

"I'm not too familiar with a ciriculum vitae"

WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW


What literate person [notice I didn't say "college kid"] doesn't know how to spell that word?

10/24/2006 6:40:59 PM

its the internet, i dont think spelling matters all too much.


but that did annoy me. that, and when people spell ridiculous "rediculous"

10/24/2006 6:43:59 PM

i definately... hate that too

10/24/2006 6:51:10 PM

It is not about whether it matters or not. If we are going to look at it that way, then almost nothing in this world matters (except basic food and shelter), what to talk of spelling!

It is about the fact that one SHOULD know the spelling of that word beyond grade 10.

And that's that.

And yes, rediculous is definately one of the most annoying infractions. Of course second only to the latter one!

Oh, and one more that is highly annoying (usage error):

"They should of known"
"They should of done it"

That really angers me whenever I see it. And what really kills me is that I can't figure out how that started. Which leads me to believe that anybody who make that rediculous mistake is definately retarded.

10/24/2006 6:52:51 PM

could have

coulda

could of


i'd a southern thing, i beleive

10/24/2006 6:54:54 PM

Quote :

""rediculous""

I'm famous for fucking that one up. That and awEsome = awsome entirely too often.

10/24/2006 6:55:06 PM

Quote :

""I'm not too familiar with a ciriculum vitae""

Did you ever stop to think I just used copy/paste?

10/24/2006 7:18:46 PM

None of you kids are even close to compiling a CV. Give me a fuckin' break.

10/24/2006 7:48:38 PM

Besides, this isn't Europe...

10/24/2006 8:00:09 PM

i really believe it should be as short and concise (sp?) as possible. the most important thing is you have relevant information on it and its easy to find . this is especially true for engineering positions. as others have stated, its not a matter of being lazy, but all the engineering staff really wants to know is "is this guy capable or not?" that being said, i submitted a 1 page resume for a senior engineering position last tuesday, and have a phone interview this thursday.

10/24/2006 8:21:42 PM

Quote :

"Did you ever stop to think I just used copy/paste?"

So you are telling me you are unfamiliar with the word "curriculum"?

Or that if you see "ciriculum" in an education/career thread, you can't guess that that's supposed to be "curriculum"? (Of course this requires that you know the word "curriculum" to begin with)

Quote :

"Did you ever stop to think? I just used copy/paste?"

10/24/2006 8:22:31 PM

Quote :

"Did you ever stop to think?"

Yes, I did. I thought the word looked Latin. Since I do not know Latin I did not bother to change the spelling.

I also thought to myself "Why would someone so obsessed with spelling misquote me?"

10/24/2006 8:41:13 PM

Quote :

"And what really kills me is that I can't figure out how that started."

should have = should've =/= should of

10/24/2006 8:43:25 PM

Seotaji: Don't pay any attention to cyrion's comment. As usual, he doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about.

10/25/2006 9:22:46 AM

Quote :

"I'm not really sure from where you got intramural ultimate frisbee. I had plenty of stuff to put on my resume right out of school. No padding was needed. Now that I have been out of school a little over a year the number of jobs I have had has doubled and therefore the size of my resume has increased to two pages."

Just made something up. I had plenty of stuff to put on my resume, but a lot of it was trivial. I put my GPA, University Scholars, summa cum laude all that stuff in the academic section. I probably wouldn't include my GPA or University Scholars anymore.

Only jobs that are directly applicable to what you are applying for should be included. But when you are straight out of school, some people don't have 2 or 3 legitimate engineering positions (or whatever your field may be) and so you include some off topic stuff just to show you can handle responsibility. Having a single co-op position would look a little empty. After you have on topic positions to put down you can cut of that assistant manager in a retail store job (or whatever you included).

That was my point.

10/25/2006 11:55:29 AM

Keep your resume to a page.

Knock 'em down.

10/25/2006 12:48:25 PM

For those of you who insist on one page, do you start taking off relevant job experience after your resume gets too long, or do you start getting rid of bullets (job responsibilities) listed under each job to keep your resume one page in length.

10/25/2006 1:15:29 PM

well both. I mean how many relevant jobs have you really had in college. Also, I'd play with margins and the spacing.

10/25/2006 1:29:41 PM

Two in college, four out of college.

10/25/2006 1:33:01 PM

I've known some people who have two resumes. They send in a resume that is only one page, and when they get the interview they bring in another resume with the additional info they had to knock off in order to get it to one page.

I think the resume should be limited to one page, plus a cover letter if you so desire (I generally don't have a cover letter unless the hiring person requested one). Some people try to list all their responsibilities from their past jobs on the resume, and I don't think thats necessary. The purpose of the resume is not to get you hired, but to get you an interview. The interview is where you can go in depth about all your experience, awards, etc

10/25/2006 4:37:19 PM

depends on what you're using it for. the resume I used for job applications was a page and a half. my resume I use for qualifications packages for getting work from prospective clients is about 6 pages long.

10/25/2006 4:52:40 PM

Quote :

"Seotaji: Don't pay any attention to cyrion's comment. As usual, he doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about."

i forgot that your opinion was so much better because you are old and grizzled. it makes sense logically and i have had a professional writing professor (with a ton of industry experience) teach what i just said.

10/25/2006 5:16:13 PM

I kind of find it hard to believe that all six jobs would be relevant to the new job AND convey original information not encapsulated in different jobs.

10/25/2006 9:48:39 PM

Quote :

"Two in college, four out of college."

I thought you're supposed to list the last three.

10/25/2006 9:50:29 PM

Jeeze, this thread is useless because each post contradicts the other! The point is, everyone thinks of something different, there is no perfect way. Everyone needs to tailor the resume to what YOU think is best, not some nobody bragging because they have the 'power' to toss someone's resume. I think a few things I draw my conclusions on is that I DON'T WANT a job where:

1) my resume is "scanned" b/c someone is too lazy to read it
2) my resume is thrown out because it contains a staple or is longer than a page
3) someone is not interested in what I did at "random company nobody's ever heard of"
4) my resume would be tossed solely on a stupid gpa number (due to it being lower with double majors, minors, etc, where your gpa isn't inflated from easy A+ classes)


Which brings me to my next questions....in keeping a resume to one page

1) How do you tell an employer WHAT you did at "random company nobody's ever heard of"?
2) Why would you not just give the employer references so he/she doesnt have to hassle you for it later, and that way the 2nd interview everythings check on and you can talk about deals?
3) Why should a resume not be a complete picture of you? In other words it includes, what you did, where you did it, what you accomplished or how you made a difference, education, extra curriculars, acheivements, etc. Wouldn't you want to make it so they don't need to ask more questions than they have to???

[Edited on October 26, 2006 at 12:01 AM. Reason : .]

10/26/2006 12:00:19 AM

^do you actually have a job? from all your posts, you sound like a kid who is in denial about reality.

Quote :

"Jeeze, this thread is useless because each post contradicts the other! The point is, everyone thinks of something different, there is no perfect way."

Actually, I just tallied it for the first page

16 people say 1 page
6 say more than 1 page.

There is no doubt -- the clear winner is the one page resume. You can subtract 2 from the more-than-one-page count, too, if you exclude people who don't have a job.


[Edited on October 26, 2006 at 1:15 AM. Reason : dsaf]

10/26/2006 1:04:23 AM

Long boring post, just like hearing myself talk. El Cliffo's Notes are posted down below in bold.

You know, this is so subjective, based on each individual, that it probably doesn't make sense to ask tww for help on this unless you provide substantial amounts of information that nobody will read on here anyway.

I guess I'm suggesting that you go to the career center, or those resume critiques that happen on campus sometimes.

Anyway, this is what my plan is for "getting the job" so far that hasn't really given me any trouble.

If it's a firm I have no contacts with, have never talked to before, but have an active interest in getting some sort of response from them, I'd send them a cover letter with a short 1 page resume (explaining the details of my experiences and intentions for working at their company in the cover letter).

If it's a firm I don't really want to work at, but would like to use as a backup or just to see what they think of me, I'd only send a resume (I got an interview once by doing this, and sure enough the company gave me a terrible interview (the guy who was good at interviews was off interviewing somebody... so they gave me the other guy who just sat and talked about how their work wasn't very exciting but the guy who does interviews will be back in just a minute... ), so I didn't talk to them again).

If it's a firm that would like to do a pre-interview of sorts (I just did something fun like this today), I'll bring a copy of my resume that is to the point, with relevant skills and courses put on there (since I'm only a junior) and make sure to bring up parts of the resume during the interview, explaining my experiences to them in person as a way of breaking the ice and gaining information. This worked great, since I was able to relate with the manager who was interviewing me on most of his points since he works construction in concrete buildings and my DOT internships dealt with both concrete structures (bridges) and construction (roadway, but it relates in several areas).

I'd honestly recommend, if it's possible for you, to show the relevant manager or hiring agent at the company that you have a serious interest in what a company stands for, what they do, and if and why you want to work for them. I did this (kept in contact with this company for 2 years or so on and off about internships and such) and it landed me a meeting with the manager at this company who would get me a job, and the manager basically told me that my perseverance and continued interest was going to get me the job. The updated resume just gave us stuff to talk about, and I put three jobs, all relevant courses and skills, education, and my objective on it without any serious fudging. So yeah, for a situation where you're going to end up going into an interview and handing the guy/girl interviewing you a new copy of your resume, a single page will likely do. Just make sure to talk about it in the interview.


El Cliffo's Notes:

If it's a short pre-interview, provide them something with a little more embellishing and information on your experiences if you will not have time to sit and chat about them, maybe even give them a cover letter if you're applying at a big firm where you're probably just another name in a stack of names. If that's the case, again, you could just give them the 1 page resume with a cover letter, or maybe a 2 page resume with a cover letter if you've built the experience. If you're just sending off your resume to a firm you want to work at, give them a 1 page resume (unless you've gotten a bunch of relevant internships since your freshman year in college, in which case you could probably add a page without ill effects) and send them a cover letter telling them who you are, why you're interested in them, and what you can offer them. All that good stuff. From what I've experienced today, simply talking to a potential employer, even via e-mail, will yield you more results than just a resume ever will (in this case it almost made the resume irrelevant). Even if you send them a 3 page resume that says everything that would be said in the interview, making that initial contact will still speak volumes about your interest in commitment to that potential employer.

Somebody call me out if I sound like I'm bullshitting.

10/26/2006 1:24:41 AM

^nope, I think making other contact is a good idea.

10/26/2006 1:28:56 AM

Just graduated in May and since then I have been applying for jobs like crazy until now. One thing I know is when an announcement is made for open positions have something ready to give them. I have a one page resume with education, objective, work experience (3 jobs) and an internship on it. My references are on a second page which if prompted I send. It seems to me that almost all the jobs I applied for asked for references so now I just send it along with the resume. My mentor in college and the current professor I work for now say one page is the way to go. I looked through some resumes of people who didnt get my job (about 50 applied in less than a week) and most of two pagers were overdone and boring and just not attention grabbers. Thats just my 2 cents

10/26/2006 9:04:57 AM

Quote :

"I kind of find it hard to believe that all six jobs would be relevant to the new job AND convey original information not encapsulated in different jobs."

Believe it.

10/26/2006 10:50:45 AM

Two pages is generally okay if everything's relevant, plus a good cover letter. If you have three pages, that's too long. There must be something you can cut. Make your resume fit the specific job for which you are applying. Like, you probably have some experience that's relevant to some applications but not to others.

10/26/2006 11:49:53 AM

If you have six jobs that you feel are relevant and distinctive, then you may need to get creative if you really want to mention them all. For instance, if one was a summer internship and the other was a full time contractor, try combining them. List only the full-time contractor, but tie into a bullet point something like "Hired as summer intern, promoted to full-time after two months." But really, I'd drop the summer internship if it was only two months and just concentrate on what you did; roll it into the bullets for the full-time job, mention it only if it comes up in the interview that you actually started two months earlier as an intern.

The real problem with two-page resumes is that most people don't have enough stuff to put on two pages. Only, and I mean ONLY, make your resume two pages if you've got good shit to put on both pages. You should do some serious paring and editing before deciding you really ought to go past the first page. And that probably means only one bullet point per job. Compound sentences are ok, though.

Along the lines of paring things down, I recommend not using references in the resume. They're superfluous, employers know they can ask for them, and they aren't going to care about the name they read unless you've got a big-shot reference they've already heard of. And half the time even then, they'll suspect you're just name-dropping unless you specifically state the extent of your relationship with that person.

I also don't see a problem with not having an objective. This can just as easily be put in the first paragraph of a cover letter. And 90% of the resumes I've screened at my current job have spectacularly shitty objectives if they list them. If you put an objective, be specific--if I read that you are "looking for a challenging job at an exciting company in a friendly environment," I will immediately suspect that (a) you've been coached at a shitty resume workshop, and (b) you don't have a lick of substance to put in your resume, and I will continue reading the rest of your resume with that same breed of skepticism.

On the subject of resume workshops and using the career center: they are absolutely vital. GOOD companies get tons of resumes submitted compared to their openings, and they'll look for any excuse to weed down the initial screening because they figure that for every 100 resumes they get for a position there are 10 competent people for every 1 job who would actually fit well in the company, so if they accidentally overlook 2-3 of those competent people on an initial (often automated these days) scan, they'll still have 7-8 good people who get an interview. So a shitty resume might get you an interview if you have good credentials, but it probably will get you overlooked for the GOOD jobs.

And by the way, the difference between reading tips on the internet for a day and visiting the counselors at the career center a few times is like the difference between a bad and an expert makeup job. Makeup, just like coaching, is essential to conceal a bit of ugliness, but the best way to apply it is to make it look like you're not wearing it at all. But also like makeup, if you don't have any hidden beauty under those blemishes in the first place, the best makeover in the world ain't gonna land you that modeling contract.



That's my advice. My personal experience is that I have a two-page resume, and it got me a job at the most prestigious strategic consulting firm in the world with a math/physics background and precisely zero traditional business experience--never took a single business, finance, or economics course in college, and my only substantial non-academic job was a year's experience as a software developer in between undergrad and grad school. But then again, I had stuff to put on those two pages because I'm fucking brilliant.

10/26/2006 11:03:35 PM

Pretty good post except for

Quote :

"And that probably means only one bullet point per job."

10/26/2006 11:30:53 PM

You can put multiple things in one bullet, but it wastes space if you have two bullets taking three lines and you could pull it up into one bullet only taking two lines. You can design things to still have a nice format and still be eye-catching and attractive while not breaking every single little thing onto its own line.

10/27/2006 12:47:14 AM

Goddamnit! You print two pages--you just put the two pages on ONE SHEET OF QUALITY PAPER! You get the best of both worlds. And I don't give a shit what "crayon" says, the primary purpose of a cover letter--if one is needed and included--is to get the hiring official to LOOK at the resume.

10/27/2006 1:19:39 AM

Quote :

"You can put multiple things in one bullet, but it wastes space if you have two bullets taking three lines and you could pull it up into one bullet only taking two lines. You can design things to still have a nice format and still be eye-catching and attractive while not breaking every single little thing onto its own line."

Ok, I'll agree to that. I usually nix/combine any 3-4 word bullets, so each bullet usually spans the width of the page.

10/27/2006 7:41:37 AM