ummm, they don't pay any bills for the most part

well, beer bills and grocery bills


and everybody pitches in on the car payment

10/26/2006 2:27:07 PM

Quote :

"You did come up with excuses."

my excuse didnt go back to a time before automobiles and telephones had been invented

i was talking about 1 YEAR AGO

Let me ask you this jbtilley

Do you think people who come to this country should be required to follow the laws of this country?

Don't read too much into the question or overanalyze it...its very simple and straightforward

10/26/2006 2:27:49 PM

why not just open up more spots for legal work visas for laborers from latino countries? the demand certainly seems to be there.

10/26/2006 2:29:59 PM

^I couldn't agree more

10/26/2006 2:30:44 PM

Quote :

"no i want you to realize that a lot of their money isnt collected...they send it back to their families in their home countries...they take money out of the economy..."

Flawed economic logic. What do they do with the dollars? They either exchange them for pesos in order to use them to buy goods or they use the dollars for someone who will take them in payment. In either situation, the dollar is coming back here to purchase something. The bank that exchanges the currency doesn't do so out of some obligation to play the banker in internation Monopoly (TM), they do so becuase someone demands dollars at the going rate. They trade them, and the dollars come right back here to be spent.

You may argue that they simply pass the dollar around Mexico, never returning. I say, sweet! We got labor for the dollar and we never had to make goods in order to pay for it. Free loan!

^^Agreed. But TweeTwista's argument about them sending money back to Mexico won't change just because they're legal. They do that because they have family back home, not because they are illegal.

[Edited on October 26, 2006 at 2:31 PM. Reason : ,]

10/26/2006 2:31:11 PM

Quote :

"In either situation, the dollar is coming back here to purchase something"

How in the world do you figure that

Quote :

"They do that because they have family back home, not because they are illegal."

Yes correct...but if they were LEGAL, they would at least be paying other things that citizens are required to pay

I could care less what they did with their money AFTER they pay all applicable taxes, which they don't do if they're illegals

[Edited on October 26, 2006 at 2:33 PM. Reason : .]

10/26/2006 2:31:59 PM

it's comes back here after it makes its rounds in tijuana or something


instead of staying here

whats so wrong with not wanting illegal immigrants here?

I'm all for legal immigrants, come over here, experience this country, learn something, maybe do something great for the good of everyone while you're here... just don't come over here illegally

10/26/2006 2:34:30 PM

Quote :

"my excuse didnt go back to a time before automobiles and telephones had been invented"

So, we have the lottery now. Why crab about the past.

Quote :

"Do you think people who come to this country should be required to follow the laws of this country?"

Yes, read my initial post in this thread. I can sympathize with the people. That doesn't mean I agree with what they did. I think there should be a more efficient plan in place to allow people to come to America to realize their dreams. Just like my family did over 200 years ago. Until such a plan exists you can fully expect people to come over illegally. Wall or no wall.

Quote :

"Don't read too much into the question or overanalyze it...its very simple and straightforward"

That's a good one. I'm getting lectured by the king of misdirection through over analyzation.

10/26/2006 2:34:46 PM

Quote :

"Until such a plan exists you can fully expect people to come over illegally"

You defend their lawbreaking just because you expect it?

Quote :

"the tax collection methods do not discriminate or distinguish between the legal and the illegal. "

sales tax, etc dont...but when you dont pay income taxes they most certainly distinguish between legals and illegals

can someone please explain to me why you are bending over backwards to defend people who are breaking the law?

[Edited on October 26, 2006 at 2:37 PM. Reason : .]

10/26/2006 2:35:52 PM

Quote :

"You defend their lawbreaking just because you expect it?"

Where did I say this? You could live by your own advice sometimes.

Quote :

"Don't read too much into the question or overanalyze it...its very simple and straightforward"

If you don't provide a sufficient legal channel to meet existing demand that people have to come here then you'd be a fool to think that people would stop coming here because there is a wall. This speaks nothing about me defending a lawbreaking practice. It acknowledges the fact that people will come over, and if you don't give them a reasonable legal channel they will opt for an illegal one.

[Edited on October 26, 2006 at 2:42 PM. Reason : ?]

10/26/2006 2:41:03 PM

So an illegal that wants to come here for a better life, you know, the American Dream, is vilified because they didn't go through the excruciatingly long legal process to do it

yet

you chalk up pot smoking and breaking the law to no big thing.

Hypocrite much?

Quote :

"How in the world do you figure that "

He figures that because he understands economics, you however, don't.

[Edited on October 26, 2006 at 2:49 PM. Reason : a]

10/26/2006 2:48:50 PM

Quote :

"^Do you understand that some of the jobs like landscaping and construction...the jobs you claim will immediately require huge pay hikes if we can get the illegals out of the system...were usually worked by high school / college kids as summer jobs? That the wages havent changed any more than any other industry based on inflation?"

So why aren't college kids working them now? Seems like it would make more sense for a business owner to hire a college kid over an illegal for a multitude of reasons. The only reason I can think of that they are hiring the illegals instead must be because they are significantly cheaper to hire.

Can you think of another?

10/26/2006 2:51:16 PM

so im going to mexico in december for two years.......they better let me back in

10/26/2006 2:56:01 PM

Quote :

"How in the world do you figure that "

Its simple, you follow the dollar.

a) Goes to the bank to exchange the dollar for pesos. The bank then takes that dollar and trades currencies with someone who wants dollars, but doesn't have them. (or they could spend it themselves in the US, so it makes it back via a purchase from the bank) The person who swapped another currency for dollars then uses those dollars to purchase American goods. Hooray, our dollar is home (which I guess is a good thing in your opinion).

b) He gives it to Lupe, who is his wife. Lupe buys a live chicken with it from Hector. Hector takes it because he has faith that someone else will take it in exchange for some goods. Hector buys something from Mario, Mario from Jose, etc. etc. ad infinitum. Now, the only reason they keep taking it is because they know it is tradable, because it has a worth. That worth is the ability to buy a good in the United States. If they pass it around forever without it ever coming back to the United States, then we got a free loan. We got the immigrant's labor and we never had to forfeit any goods for that dollar. In reality, it comes back eventually, and it is worth less due to inflation. So, we got $1 worth of labor and we pay it back with goods worth <$1. Free loan!

If you don't understand this, that's ok. It takes some time to understand monetary economics. If you have any more questions, please let me know and I'll do my best to explain it.

__
Also, it is outright incorrect to think illegals are the only people being paid under the table. Many legal immigrants do so as well as natural born citizens. On a side note...make sure you report that payment to your babysitter on a W2 so we can tax her

[Edited on October 26, 2006 at 3:04 PM. Reason : .]

10/26/2006 3:02:45 PM

Quote :

"and it is worth less due to inflation"

My experience? Exchange rates killed it faster than inflation. You trade one dollar for a peso today and get 50 pesos for it. Chances are that when you go back to convert those 50 pesos into dollars in a few years you'll only get $0.80 back.

Of course the dollar can easily get burned by the same token, but generally that's the direction it goes with the peso.

[Edited on October 26, 2006 at 3:13 PM. Reason : Actually it looks like pesos have gained on the dollar over the past few years ]

10/26/2006 3:08:37 PM

Quote :

"My experience? Exchange rates killed it faster than inflation. You trade one dollar for a peso today and get 50 pesos for it. Chances are that when you go back to convert those 50 pesos into dollars in a few years you'll only get $0.80 back."

I'm not sure what you mean by this. I mean, you could say that the dollar is getting stronger, so they get less pesos back/$, but that exchange rate fluctuates based on the demand of people with dollars who want pesos and the supply of people who want pesos and have dollars. We can't really count on the dollar continuing to get stronger as the actual justification for not being worried about outflows of USD to Mexico.


__
And on the off chance that you're referring to the fees built in to exchanging dollars to pesos and vice versa, that money comes back to the US from the bank. It is the profit they pay taxes on, or use to purchase goods and services, like labor.

[Edited on October 26, 2006 at 3:13 PM. Reason : .]

10/26/2006 3:12:26 PM

Quote :

"So an illegal that wants to come here for a better life, you know, the American Dream, is vilified because they didn't go through the excruciatingly long legal process to do it"

do you believe that they should not be vilified??

10/26/2006 3:12:35 PM

I'm just curious, but of all the comments in this thread, why did you chose mine?

10/26/2006 3:17:18 PM

^^^Yes, you can't rely on that. I was just speaking of the experience I had. When I arrived in a country the exchange rate was 1US Dollar for 13 of their peso. By the time I left the rate was 1:17 (now the rate is 1:30). I benefited by keeping all the money I had while I was there as USD up until the time I spent it. Cashing out immediately would have left me with the devaluing currency.


[Edited on October 26, 2006 at 3:18 PM. Reason : -]

10/26/2006 3:17:41 PM

the illegal immigration is caused by Mexican policies and the general shit-hole quality of life present in central and south America.... thus they want to come here where the worst job still pays more than a 'decent' job there...

Quote :

"I could care less what they did with their money AFTER they pay all applicable taxes, which they don't do if they're illegals"

now that I'm a drone-tax-paying citizen I find this entirely correct.... if you don't pay taxes then you shouldn't be allowed the privileges extended to those that do vis a vis public services.

[Edited on October 26, 2006 at 3:41 PM. Reason : d]

10/26/2006 3:39:21 PM

Quote :

"I'm just curious, but of all the comments in this thread, why did you chose mine?"

whats it to ya? ....

do you really think those people who come to this country illegally should not be vilified?? should we take into consideration WHY they came to this country? should that be part of the law?? that if the reason for coming here illegally is to get away from being poor then it is ok??

10/26/2006 4:27:06 PM

No, they shouldn't be vilified. The majority of them aren't evil people. Why would I hate anyone that wants to come and live in the greatest country in the world?

I just can't blame anyone for wanting to live here versus the shit hole that is Central America.

10/26/2006 4:32:02 PM

i actually agree...they should not be villified

should they be held accountable and punished for coming here illegally??

10/26/2006 4:36:08 PM

I can see where someone is coming from if they want to improve their situation

But everybody wants to improve their situation

But I'm not sneaking into someone's nice house to live there just because I live in an apartment

The process of getting to a position where I can legally go through the proper channels to be able to afford a large house takes time but that doesn't mean I'm just gonna break the law to get there

10/26/2006 4:36:12 PM

Quote :

"But I'm not sneaking into someone's nice house to live there just because I live in an apartmentgutter with thugs trying to rape and rob me of everything I have"

If you are going to talk in terms of analogies, lets be honest.


I still can't see where you are hating on these guys when your government is the one that has given them the free pass and made it legal by default, by inaction.

The actual law has become so ridiculous even, that it has now taken on the level of laws such as "you can only have sex in the missionary position" and "you can't spit on a sidewalk in our town", etc.

10/26/2006 4:53:57 PM

We could probably come to a compromise in terms of the analogy if you didn't go on the opposite end of the spectrum and classify every illegal who comes to our country as previously being in a situation where they were constantly under the threat of having all of their shit stolen

Let alone that all that stuff can happen to you in the US

10/26/2006 4:57:08 PM

first of all...its our government...deal with it...

second...no one is hating them...we just dont think they should be able to come here illegally and do what they want to...they should be punished somehow...and i agree that the government is messing up...but dont turn that into a partisan issue...the government has ALWAYS messed this up...no matter who is in charge...but no one hates illegal immigrants....its just that...ya know...they are illegal

10/26/2006 4:57:53 PM

again nobody blames them for wanting a better way of life

its just i wish they would go about it in a different way, ie legal immigration

10/26/2006 4:59:59 PM

Quote :

"We could probably come to a compromise in terms of the analogy if you didn't go on the opposite end of the spectrum and classify every illegal who comes to our country as previously being in a situation where they were constantly under the threat of having all of their shit stolen"

It's pretty lawless in Mexico. Just go down there, and when you find yourself forking over mondo bucks to get out of jail after you were arrested for no reason, you'll see what I mean.

And besides, we were talking in terms of analogies, not reality.

Here, lets walk through it slowly

USA : Mexico as Nice house : Apartment?!

Does not compute!!!!!!!


And you wonder why people would rather bang their heads against the wall than respond to your posts. It isn't because we don't care about your opinion, it's because your opinion isn't valid if you can't form it in a way that really conveys what you are trying to say.

10/26/2006 5:00:22 PM

Quote :

"And you wonder why people would rather bang their heads against the wall than respond to your posts. It isn't because we don't care about your opinion, it's because your opinion isn't valid if you can't form it in a way that really conveys what you are trying to say."

this applies to you too..

and just because it is lawless in mexico doesnt mean its lawless here...we do, in fact, have laws here...should they be enforced?? should we keep illegal immigrants out??

10/26/2006 5:02:25 PM

Quote :

"when you find yourself forking over mondo bucks to get out of jail after you were arrested for no reason, you'll see what I mean"

talk to a black person in America

or better yet, dont try to paint the entire country of Mexico as some lawless land of anarchy with murder and rape galore

Quote :

"And you wonder why people would rather bang their heads against the wall than respond to your posts."

no its mostly you...most other people will at least respond to my posts because their anger doesnt get the best of them...you on the other hand seem to get furious when one of your claims is shot down and pull the copout of "treetwista is acting dumb...i'm outta here"

10/26/2006 5:02:42 PM

Quote :

"its just that...ya know...they are illegal"

Our governments apathy towards actually enforcing the law (which in itself is "illegal"), effectively makes them legal.
Would there actually be an illegal immigration problem if this were nipped in the bud a long long time ago?

Quote :

"...but dont turn that into a partisan issue..."

You want to point out to me where I turned this into a partisan issue?

Do you just spout mindless key points in your posts?

partisan issue
the law is the law
deal with it


It's like, every post you make is the same regardless of the situation.

Quote :

"no its mostly you...most other people will at least respond to my posts because their anger doesnt get the best of them..."

Simply not true. Most people probably don't respond to you at all because they aren't bored enough.

[Edited on October 26, 2006 at 5:05 PM. Reason : a]

10/26/2006 5:03:57 PM

Quote :

"Our governments apathy towards actually enforcing the law...effectively makes them legal. "

thats 100% false

10/26/2006 5:04:31 PM

Do you know the meaning of the word "effectively"?

10/26/2006 5:05:51 PM

do you know the meanings of the words 'legal' and 'illegal'

again i see where you're coming from but that does not mean they are not in the wrong to illegally come into our country

10/26/2006 5:07:21 PM

Quote :

"Employers can extract more from employees by holding the sword of calling immigration over their heads. That community is subject to the manipulation and abuse of coyotes (immigrant runners), landlords, and employers because they have no recourse to the government. When the law goes unenforced you get lawlessness. It is clear that not enforcing the law hasn't worked; the idea that removing the law altogether will help is patently absurd."

When the law goes unenforced, you get lawlessness. A lack of law = lawlessness = legal, effectively

Is this a hard concept for you to get? I didn't say it meant they were legal and not breaking a law. I said effectively, they were legal.

[Edited on October 26, 2006 at 5:12 PM. Reason : a]

10/26/2006 5:09:40 PM

Quote :

"abuse of coyotes (immigrant runners), landlords, employers, and of course the illegal immigrants themselves"

i fixed it for you

10/26/2006 5:10:55 PM

Quote :

"When the governments of the U.S. and Mexico both telegraph that immigration law won't be enforced (at least not the parts about sneaking across the border), is it any wonder people come over the border? This is a problem of our government's own making (blaming the immigrants is rather simple-minded here) who don't enforce the law and then grant ridiculous concessions like bilingual services, welfare, and the use of non-US identification. It as if the US government wants to multiply the number of walls between the immigrant community and the general population. In effect, it only increases the amount of tension, manipulation, and anger in the illegal immigrant community."

It's just really hard for me to blame these folks when for the most part all of it should lie with our government.

It's like telling a thief he can run the register, and then getting pissed at him when he steal from you.

10/26/2006 5:15:21 PM

Quote :

"Our governments apathy towards actually enforcing the law (which in itself is "illegal"), effectively makes them legal."

this ...is more BS than i can possible imagine...

Quote :

"You want to point out to me where I turned this into a partisan issue? "

i apologize...i did not mean to imply that you were turning it into one...i was just saying that its not one and it shouldnt be turned into one...in general...stop being so defensive...jeez

but i agree that the govenment is blowing it on this...the best thing they can do is take a HARD HARD stance and handle the situation..what they DONT need to do is say..."oh crap...we blew it...ok....everyone is legal!! YAY!!"....thats not the thing to do



[Edited on October 26, 2006 at 5:18 PM. Reason : asdf]

10/26/2006 5:17:16 PM

Quote :

"this ...is more BS than i can possible imagine..."

Even if the statement were BS, I don't think it's more than you can imagine. Or is the complexity of your brain power vastly underdeveloped?

Do you want me to go find more quotes where people agree with me that if a law isn't going to be enforced, then you effectively aren't making it illegal to break that law?

[Edited on October 26, 2006 at 5:19 PM. Reason : a]

10/26/2006 5:19:30 PM

Quote :

"It's like telling a thief he can run the register, and then getting pissed at him when he steal from you"

more like leaving your business unlocked at night and therefore considering the thief who breaks in and steals the money "effectively legal" in taking your money

Quote :

"It's just really hard for me to blame these folks when for the most part all of it should lie with our government. 29-year old blogger John Babenek tells me not to"

10/26/2006 5:21:05 PM

no...i really cant imagine that....and i have two masters degrees sooo...i dont know

but dude...who cares if you are effectively doing anything? i agree 100000% that the government has TOTALLY blown this...and it pisses me off to no end...

but that doesnt excuse the people whe are here illegally....they have to enforce the laws, they have to punish the illegals...they have to punish the employers of illegals...a hard stance has to be taken

10/26/2006 5:21:51 PM

attempting to insult someone's intelligence is his way of diminishing his own self doubts by convincing himself that he is so much smarter and he cannot be wrong

10/26/2006 5:39:24 PM

Quote :

"more like leaving your business unlocked at night and therefore considering the thief who breaks in and steals the money "effectively legal" in taking your money"

There you go with another poor attempt at an analogy.

Quote :

"no...i really cant imagine that....and i have two masters degrees sooo...i dont know"

hahah, yea, this is a joke. You got a giggle out of me on this one.

[Edited on October 26, 2006 at 5:43 PM. Reason : a]

10/26/2006 5:41:39 PM

^your analogy was much worse

10/26/2006 5:43:48 PM

I KNOW YOU ARE BUT WHAT AM I

10/26/2006 5:55:05 PM

untill I hear a good idea to fix the problem im going to stick with the "its cool with me" side.

10/26/2006 6:09:19 PM

^I'm right with you Dental.

I actually favor...open borders in the style of Europe, but I'd never actually say that!

Actually, I like open borders in theory, just not in practice. Although, in 25 years if/when Mexico gets their shit together and is just slightly poorer than we are, I'd have no problem with an open border with them like Europe.

10/26/2006 10:10:00 PM

The issue of taxpayer dollars going to these people that should not be here should upset you, at least.

1. enforce the laws
2. secure the border
3. be vigilant in stopping futgure illegal immigration

we will gladly welcome LEGAL immigrants.

10/27/2006 12:56:35 AM

I'd say that illegal immigrants are still a net gain to our economy even factoring that some of them don't pay the correct amount of taxes and use our social and medical services illegally.

That's a really hard number to pin down, and it really can't be done with any reasonable degree of accuracy. Call it a hunch.

10/27/2006 8:19:09 AM