Quote :

"Because all I can come up with is going ahead and telling Iraq that it can be 3 different countries and we'll drop bombs on the first one of the three that doesn't play nice."

We won't have to bomb them -- Turkey has made it quite clear that if we partition Iraq and give the Kurds their country, they will invade it that day.

Quote :

"I don't buy that the war couldn't have been avoided."

Just to make sure we're on the same page, I'm not talking about this specific war being inevitable. But Iraq is a country with a history of pseudofascism, agression, and repression. It has a large population, important resources, and an important location. It was set to fall into the hands of two really fucking evil sons after Saddam went away, and showed no signs whatsoever of possible reform. The day was going to come, in our lifetimes, where we were compelled to intervene -- either because it attacked one of our allies, or it actually did develop some nasty weapons, or its internal violence got to a level that even we wouldn't accept. I don't buy for a second that our government could coexist with Iraq's, as it existed a few years ago, indefinitely, and I don't buy for a second that their government was going to change without someone making it do so.

12/11/2006 4:51:01 PM

Quote :

"I don't buy for a second that our government could coexist with Iraq's, as it existed a few years ago, indefinitely,"

We've coexisted with worse governments in the past. We're tolerating North Korea's horrible government right now.

Quote :

"and I don't buy for a second that their government was going to change without someone making it do so."

You never know. Maybe the Middle East doesn't have much of a history of it, but dictators can be overthrow peacefully. The people can make a government change. Also, sometimes bad governments just eventually mellow out.

12/11/2006 5:00:12 PM

Quote :

"We won't have to bomb them -- Turkey has made it quite clear that if we partition Iraq and give the Kurds their country, they will invade it that day."

I honestly would like to think that a little(or heaping helping of) diplomacy and outright threats could sway Turkey on that matter, but I still just don't know enough specifics of whats what to say that it would 100% work.

Quote :

"Just to make sure we're on the same page, I'm not talking about this specific war being inevitable. But Iraq is a country with a history of pseudofascism, agression, and repression. It has a large population, important resources, and an important location. It was set to fall into the hands of two really fucking evil sons after Saddam went away, and showed no signs whatsoever of possible reform. The day was going to come, in our lifetimes, where we were compelled to intervene -- either because it attacked one of our allies, or it actually did develop some nasty weapons, or its internal violence got to a level that even we wouldn't accept. I don't buy for a second that our government could coexist with Iraq's, as it existed a few years ago, indefinitely, and I don't buy for a second that their government was going to change without someone making it do so."

I see where you're coming from. I still don't think that any war is inevitable. We might not have been able to coexist with an Uday & brother regime or even a few extra years of a Saddam regime, but I think a doctrine of pre-emptive war is a dangerous one...even moreso than a responsive war.

I firmly believe, though, that proper planning and a little more wooing of the international community rather than deciding that all 10 of Poland's troops constituted world support could have changed a lot of things. More diplomacy and less cowboy, if you will.

12/11/2006 5:00:41 PM

Quote :

"We've coexisted with worse governments in the past."

Yes, but these were often in our pockets, friendly towards us, neutral, or too completely incompetent to pose a threat. I mean, sure, Burma's got an asshole government, but I don't really see them as building the Bomb in our lifetimes. Besides, I'm not as convinced that N. Korea or similar countries have their horrible governments as entrenched as Iraq does -- it's pretty much the only thing they know as a nation.

Quote :

"Maybe the Middle East doesn't have much of a history of it, but dictators can be overthrow peacefully. The people can make a government change. Also, sometimes bad governments just eventually mellow out."

That's true, all of these things can happen, under the right conditions -- none of which exist in Iraq. There isn't some national congress of people there, no assembly, no 3rd estate crowd agitating for democracy.

Quote :

"I honestly would like to think that a little(or heaping helping of) diplomacy and outright threats could sway Turkey on that matter"

And I'd like to think that, too, but unless something serious changed first in their national consciousness, Turkey will follow through on its thread. Turkey's a pretty shitty democracy by world standards, and they know that an independent Kurdistan will make their own population either move out or want to secede, neither one of which they're willing to accept.

Quote :

"but I think a doctrine of pre-emptive war is a dangerous one"

And this is where we disagree. I don't think there's anything particularly bad with pre-emptive war. There's just something bad with shittily-conceived, poorly-thought-out wars, of any kind.

12/12/2006 2:00:14 AM

Quote :

"Turkey has made it quite clear that if we partition Iraq and give the Kurds their country, they will invade it that day."

Stay up with the events if you are going to argue about them:

http://www.ekurd.net/mismas/articles/misc2006/8/turkeykurdistan827.htm

12/12/2006 6:26:27 AM

Learn how to read articles before you try to use them. Nothing in there referes to an independent Kurdistan, but rather to Turkish plans to intervene in northern Iraq to stop the movement of fighters in and out of Turkey's own Kurdish region.

12/12/2006 12:09:50 PM

I just fined it humorous that JerryGarcia is quoting William Lind. A person whom himself represents a fine example of Carl Jung's concept of the collective unconscious. While he has been very anti-US strategy throughout his writings for the past 3 years, you will always note that he acknowledges our once potential ability to succeed. He like many of us believe that had this thing been a little better thought out come 9 APR, the proverbial shit wouldn't be so deep. If the troop levels had been at least half of what they were for Desert Storm, we would have solidified Iraq from the outset. However, in the true American spirit, we did this on the cheap up front and now we (American Soldiers) are paying for it in the long run.

12/12/2006 1:51:06 PM

^Doesn't matter. From the perspective of a realist, we won the war. Doesn't matter how we did it.

END OF DISCUSSION!

12/12/2006 1:56:24 PM

Quote :

"Yes, but these were often in our pockets, friendly towards us, neutral, or too completely incompetent to pose a threat."

Iraq was too completely pwnt by sanctions and the last war to pose a threat. Do you really believe they were more of threat to us than, say, North Korea or Iran?

Quote :

"Besides, I'm not as convinced that N. Korea or similar countries have their horrible governments as entrenched as Iraq does -- it's pretty much the only thing they know as a nation."

Has North Korea really known much better government? They've only been around since World War II.

Quote :

"That's true, all of these things can happen, under the right conditions -- none of which exist in Iraq."

Conditions change. No one can predict the future with much accuracy. That's why you need a damn good reason to justify any war.

12/12/2006 3:46:45 PM

Quote :

"Do you really believe they were more of threat to us than, say, North Korea or Iran?"

Not really. But it was the one we could get away with fucking up.

Quote :

"Has North Korea really known much better government?"

True, but the existence of a country full of identical people that manage to run a semi-functioning democracy right next door in large part takes the place of good government in its own history.

Quote :

"Conditions change."

Yes, they do, but the kind of change we're talking about here is highly unlikely to be soon enough or radical enough to prevent what I am calling the inevitable outcome.

12/13/2006 9:56:24 AM

How do we get around the fact that there's no such thing as Iraq as far as the people of Iraq are concerned?

People join the military presumably out of some sense of duty to their country. That doesn't exist for Iraqis...they feel a sense of duty to their sect.

So if we're looking for us to "stand down as they stand up," then we'll be losing people in this nonsense for a long fucking time.

12/13/2006 11:43:40 AM

Well I dont agree with pre-emptive war or that the eventual take over by Sadams' sons would have brought the country into chaos, seeing as how Hussein's tyranny kept a lid on the jar of worms that is Iraq. For what it matters, I think staying the course is the best viable option as long as Bush and the rest of his cronies are out of office. What I would like to see is a lot more soldiers instead of the 144k soldiers there now. Its just not fair to stretch them out that thin. Plus with all we've committed in terms of American lives and dollars it would be terrible just to leave, morally and image wise. We dont need to draw lines in the dirt we just need to give stability, something thats been lacking since the offset.


[Edited on December 13, 2006 at 3:27 PM. Reason : .]

12/13/2006 3:21:41 PM

JerryGarcia seems to enjoy the war in Iraq

12/14/2006 2:42:28 AM