Quote :

"hooksaw: ^ Your either-or premise most certainly is--look it up."

No, it's not an either-or fallacy. You look it up.

(And give it some thought this time around.)

[Edited on January 4, 2007 at 6:48 AM. Reason : sss]

1/4/2007 6:48:02 AM

Quote :

"first thing i thought was that no one is really signing up for the military anymore, so by making the army gay friendly, they will attract more people for stuff like iraq"

1/4/2007 8:40:15 AM

A snapshot of a soldier does not give you enough to tell you whether or not they are a hero.

What if that soldier in the lower picture had just pulled 18 children from a burning school and then apprehended the arsonist?

I'm not claiming he did that, but your presentation of a picture and an assertion of his worthiness are ridiculous, unless you're so far gone as to think nothing noble qualifies as noble or heroic in Iraq because the war is unjust.

1/4/2007 8:47:50 AM

Eh, does it matter? How many gay men are going to enlist if they can be open about their sexuality? 10? 100?

If it hurts morale it should not be done for the very limited gains it would bring.

1/4/2007 11:16:43 AM

the handful of military people i know have said they wouldn't care at all if someone was openly gay in the military. they pretty much just care about if someone can do their job or not.

and if i (as a straight male) were considering joining the military, the military's current intolerance towards openly gay people might sway me from being a part of their organization.

[Edited on January 4, 2007 at 11:21 AM. Reason : .]

1/4/2007 11:20:09 AM

Their might be a rough patch, but I think with what I mentioned in my last post, as evidenced by the british, it is a larger area for recruitment than 10 or 100 people by far.

1/4/2007 12:09:00 PM

Quote :

"I'm not claiming he did that, but your presentation of a picture and an assertion of his worthiness are ridiculous, unless you're so far gone as to think nothing noble qualifies as noble or heroic in Iraq because the war is unjust."

Being brave and noble doesn't qualify you has a hero.

1/4/2007 12:54:34 PM

Quote :

"Ill-concieved on so many levels, it's actually amusing. "

yep.

1/4/2007 1:18:53 PM

Quote :

"noble or heroic"

Okay, that's why I added the "or heroic" part. Being heroic does classify you as a hero you ignorant fuckwad.

1/4/2007 2:02:29 PM

Quote :

"But...but...they declared war on us by flying planes into the world trade center on that fateful day of 9/11. And we all know that those terrorists had strong links with Saddam's Iraq and all of his weapons of mass destruction. Why do you hate America?"

LOL LOL LOL...you are either being very sarcastic...or you are going to be the next president of the United States.

1/4/2007 2:21:06 PM

Quote :

"Eh, does it matter? How many gay men are going to enlist if they can be open about their sexuality? 10? 100?"

There have been cases of intelligence analysts and Arabic translators being kicked out on account of their sexual orentation. One-hundred translators would be sorely missed.

Quote :

"and if i (as a straight male) were considering joining the military, the military's current intolerance towards openly gay people might sway me from being a part of their organization."

Probably not the first thing on most peoples minds when joining an organization such as the military.

1/4/2007 3:33:03 PM

what was it some comedian said one time...about if you were out in a jungle fighting...and some poisonous snake bit you in the dick...something about needing the poison sucked out...

1/4/2007 3:36:46 PM

Quote :

"LOL LOL LOL...you are either being very sarcastic...or you are going to be the next president of the United States."

My ego isn't as inflated to assume that you are familiar with my stance on things here in teh soap box so I will throw you a bone and tell you that it was sarcasm.

After hearing how other countries have successfully allowed homosexuals into their ranks I am all for the United States getting over itself and coming out of the dark ages to be mature enough to where sexual orientation is not limiting factor in serving the country.

1/4/2007 6:41:47 PM

Quote :

"No, it's not an either-or fallacy. You look it up. (And give it some thought this time around.) [Edited on January 4, 2007 at 6:48 AM. Reason : sss]"

BridgetSPK

As any rational person can see, which obviously excludes you, BridgetSPK, nutsmackr was clearly suggesting in the post in question that those who served in WWII were heroes and those now serving in Iraq are not.

Either-or fallacy: "offering only two alternatives when more exist." QED.

1/4/2007 10:22:05 PM

phallicy?

1/4/2007 10:41:13 PM

^ Well, I think that BridgetSPK might be suffering from phallus envy.

1/5/2007 5:36:23 AM

No, it's not an either-or fallacy.

An exmaple of an either-or fallacy:

You're either a hero or a coward.

"Hero/not a hero" is NOT an either-or fallacy.

THINK, FUCKFACE, THINK.

1/5/2007 5:52:50 AM

^ You are a fucking idiot.

1/5/2007 5:54:23 AM

^No, I'm right. Here's another example along the same lines that we're arguing about...

Either-or fallacy: You're either with us or against us.

NOT an either-or fallacy: You're either with us or not with us.

Does that help you understand?

Just think about it. Maybe ask a trusted logic expert or something.

[Edited on January 5, 2007 at 6:16 AM. Reason : sss]

1/5/2007 6:15:35 AM

^ I don't need any advice on the subject. I happen to know what I'm talking about--you do not. Please STFU for a while, k?

1/5/2007 6:35:28 AM

Quote :

"exmaple"

[Edited on January 5, 2007 at 6:57 AM. Reason : . You're fucking stupid--STFU!]

1/5/2007 6:36:17 AM

No, you do not know what you're talking about here. I've explained it to you and showed you how you're wrong, but you refuse to admit you're wrong.

This is not an either-or fallacy:

You're either a hero, or you're not a hero.

If nutsmackr had said:

You're either a hero, or you're a coward.

I would agree with you. But he didn't say that. The "with/against vs. with/not with" example really should have gotten through to you.

Could someone please help me explain it to hooksaw?

1/5/2007 6:42:56 AM

^ I'll try this once--because you're a dumbass. Either-or fallacies do NOT have to be opposites. If I were to say you could only have Frosted Flakes or Rice Krispies, would the two choices be considered opposites? NO! Yet, we know that, say, Lucky Charms exists, so my premise of only two cereal choices would be an either-or fallacy. Get it? Now, STFU!

1/5/2007 7:04:15 AM

^I never said they had to be opposites! I just happened to use "oppsoites" in the examples I gave you. Since that's what's holding you back, I'll try again...

Either-or fallacy:

You're either a hero, or you're a excellent lover.

NOT an either-or fallacy:

You're either a hero, or you're not a hero.

It's not an either-or fallacy because there's no "half-hero." You're either a hero or you're not a hero.

1/5/2007 7:10:51 AM

On further review, this dude is obviously in one of Her Majesty's armed services and not an American. For what its worth.

1/5/2007 7:23:32 AM

^^ Therein lies the problem.

1/5/2007 7:39:28 AM

^Yes, but in this case, there are no other options available to be presented. nutsmackr wasn't manipulating the premise and creating artificial circumstances; he was saying he considered these guys heroes and these other guys not heroes. The either/or fallacy is also called a false (or falsified) dilemma--false is the part you're not getting or perhaps simply ignoring. If there are only two options under the natural circumstances, there are only two options. There's nothing else to present so to present those two options isn't falsifying anything.

It isn't an either/or fallacy.

[Edited on January 5, 2007 at 9:17 AM. Reason : sss]

1/5/2007 9:16:51 AM

Quote :

"Okay, that's why I added the "or heroic" part. Being heroic does classify you as a hero you ignorant fuckwad."

So you created a tautology. Great. Have anymore logical fallacies you want to throw around?

1/5/2007 12:27:36 PM

lol, you fucking suck at life.

The (quite obvious even to Helen Keller) point I was making was that:

Quote :

"your presentation of a picture and an assertion of his worthiness are ridiculous, unless you're so far gone as to think nothing noble qualifies as noble or heroic in Iraq because the war is unjust. "

1/5/2007 2:41:47 PM

back to the original topic please. . .

1/5/2007 3:01:01 PM

^^Do you know what a tautology is?

1/5/2007 3:06:38 PM

should we care if he knows? All this repetitive mumbo jumbo really isn't contributing to the topic

1/5/2007 3:40:14 PM

I know what a tautology is, but you're missing the point. I'm saying that showing a picture of a soldier doesn't tell us if he was a hero or not a hero simply because the war he was involved in. You can be a hero that fought in Iraq, you can also have fought in WWII without having been a hero.

Jesus H. Christ you are dense.

1/5/2007 4:25:45 PM

WW II: Hero/Not Hero

Iraq War: Hero/Not Hero

In addition, define hero.

1/5/2007 9:45:39 PM

nope, it is impossible to be a hero in an illegal war.

1/5/2007 9:46:06 PM

You guys can argue about the definition of hero and how that involves different wars, but I would like to get someone to acknowledge that nutsmackr's "hero/not hero" opinion is not an either/or fallacy.

Would someone acknowledge that?

I really need it, guys.

1/5/2007 10:55:07 PM

Okay I will.

1/5/2007 11:28:06 PM

THANK YOU!!!

1/5/2007 11:36:46 PM

Quote :

"Could a gay person be mature about it and not let it become uncomfortable for anyone?"

Definitely not. The problem with gays is that they are attracted to EVERYONE of the same sex. We have all -- knowingly or unknowingly -- been victims of a gay person checking us out. We will not be safe from the gays until we can keep them from walking among us and passing as straight so that they can covertly objectify us.

1/6/2007 1:23:22 AM

^^ You're still wrong. And "either/or" (sic) should be hyphenated. Even though some authorities allow your version (you obviously had to look it up), a slash indicates alternatives--I have never heard of the or fallacy or the either fallacy. In addition, either-or modifies fallacy, so the correct spelling of the term at issue should be either-or fallacy.

For your edification, another example is cost-benefit analysis--cost and benefit modify analysis; the words tell us what type of analysis it is. In addition, in this case, one would not be looking for only a cost analysis or only a benefit analysis, which would be the alternatives indicated by a slash. One would be analyzing the cost and benefit of one plan compared to the cost and benefit of another plan.

Just because a number of people write or say something a certain way, does not make it correct. Many people pronounce the word forte as FORtay, which is incorrect, and cache as CASHay, which is incorrect, too. These are some examples as to why you should try to think for yourself, BridgetSPK, instead of just towing the party line.

[Edited on January 6, 2007 at 1:29 AM. Reason : ^]

1/6/2007 1:28:22 AM

^^ Sarcasm--good.

1/6/2007 1:31:13 AM

hooksaw, you are just a little pedantic prick. You've yet to add anything of merit to the soapbox in your entire existance here.

1/6/2007 12:17:12 PM

Quote :

"hooksaw: ^^ You're still wrong. And "either/or" (sic) should be hyphenated. Even though some authorities allow your version (you obviously had to look it up), a slash indicates alternatives--I have never heard of the or fallacy or the either fallacy. In addition, either-or modifies fallacy, so the correct spelling of the term at issue should be either-or fallacy. For your edification, another example is cost-benefit analysis--cost and benefit modify analysis; the words tell us what type of analysis it is. In addition, in this case, one would not be looking for only a cost analysis or only a benefit analysis, which would be the alternatives indicated by a slash. One would be analyzing the cost and benefit of one plan compared to the cost and benefit of another plan. Just because a number of people write or say something a certain way, does not make it correct. Many people pronounce the word forte as FORtay, which is incorrect, and cache as CASHay, which is incorrect, too. These are some examples as to why you should try to think for yourself, BridgetSPK, instead of just towing the party line."

I typed "either-or" every other time in this thread. I got a little mixed up with that last post. Such a grievous error clearly warrants a lengthy response from you. Good look.

I know how to pronounce forte and cache. When I learned the correct pronunciation of forte in middle school, it was news to me because I learned the word in the context of music where it is pronounced FORtay. Still I always say FORtay because people recognize that pronunciation more readily, and I'm not going to give up effective communication just to be right.

And, by the way, I did look up the either-or fallacy. That probably contributes to why I understand what it is, and you don't. You can pick out tiny punctuation errors all day, but I'll still be right about this. nutsmackr did not use an either-or fallacy.

(And you can't possibly believe your bullshit. How can you go from a minor punctuation error to the great think-for-yourself theme? Come on. That's just silly.)

1/6/2007 1:45:19 PM

Quote :

""Could a gay person be mature about it and not let it become uncomfortable for anyone?""

If I was showering with a bunch of ugly chicks, would it make it less uncomfortable for them because I wasn't sexually attracted to them?

1/6/2007 4:22:36 PM

^^^ Fuck you.

^^ Done with you.

1/6/2007 10:26:15 PM

I'm right, and I win.

1/6/2007 10:45:03 PM

I just don't get how black people say ax instead of ask.

1/6/2007 10:50:51 PM

Ax used to be legitimate.

It started out as acsian and then moved to ascian.

Linguists suggesst that "acsian" speakers had already come to the Americas before the switch was made across the pond. As a result, we still have acsian speakers here today.

1/6/2007 11:29:09 PM

still have? even the most educated of blacks say ax. The uneducated ones I can't even understand WTF they are saying...its like they are speaking jiberish

1/7/2007 11:02:38 AM

^Is English your first language? What don't you understand about this: "As a result, we still have acsian speakers here today." What's your question? Or did you just wanna toss in a jab at uneducated black folks?

1/7/2007 12:13:32 PM