Quote :

"What makes it stupid? Is it stupid because you don't speak it?"

Thug talk is spoken because it is utilized by a portion of society that emphasizes not being white. Sadly, most parts of American culture can be labeled white, including education. While it may be cool, it puts you at a distinct disadvantage in life because it purposefully is meant to sound uneducated and unprofessional.

2/8/2007 7:03:02 PM

that entire culture is stupid

2/8/2007 7:04:01 PM

Don't get me wrong, it certainly has its reasons and a degree of cultural significance, but it blows my mind that people can fail to recognize it as a handicap.

2/8/2007 7:07:04 PM

Quote :

"guth: you are putting ebonics and thick accents in different groups, they are the same thing"

You can group them however you want.

It sounds like you're trying argue against my point. That you're trying to say it matters for white the people the same as it does for black people.

I disagree.

Most white people don't speak standard English, but we tell black people that they have to speak it. A white person can say, "I'm kinda tired. I'm just tryna go home and get ta bed." That's perfectly acceptable. But, for some reason, teachers tell their black students that they have to speak standard English. The message is clear: black people must speak standard English; white people do not.

[Edited on February 8, 2007 at 7:29 PM. Reason : To be clear.]

2/8/2007 7:10:46 PM

Quote :

"look...black people, by the numbers--as a group--are severely fucked up. that's cold hard fact, and pretty much nobody would disagree. it's a consensus among everyone from Al Sharpton to David Duke. "

Spoken like a true fuckin biggot bastard. Its a cold hard fact, eh? why? because you said it? because it came out of your cock sucking lips? You don't know anything about black people, except for your own fucked up misconceptions. I'd expect you to know more, being in the millitary, but I see they don't teach you shit and that's a shame. You, a grown ass millitary man, get on a message board and spout your constant, incoherent ignorance. Tool.

It's okay to joke about shit, in all seriousness. Race, gender etc. But you say the dumbest shit on earth and expect people to give credence to what you "actually say, like you just know everything. In reality, you have this twisted fucked up view that forces to say the damnest things (I don't think you're aware of it). I'm just going to start ignoring you. Atleast I'll try. But dumbasses are so hard to ignore sometimes.



[Edited on February 8, 2007 at 7:21 PM. Reason : .]

2/8/2007 7:11:41 PM

Quote :

"Most white people don't speak standard English, but we tell black people that they have to speak it. A white person can say, "I'm kinda tired. I'm just tryna go home and get ta bed." That's perfectly acceptable. But, for some reason, teachers tell their black students that they have to speak standard English. The message is clear: black people must speak standard English; white people do not."

Bridget, what the fuck are you talking about? Can you support that with anything or is it just your unsubstantiated opinion?

BTW, I remember teachers yelling at me for saying "Yeah" instead of "Yes."

2/8/2007 7:21:39 PM

Quote :

"theDuke866: look...black people, by the numbers--as a group--are severely fucked up. that's cold hard fact, and pretty much nobody would disagree. it's a consensus among everyone from Al Sharpton to David Duke. they might disagree as to the causes and the solutions, but not that it's a problem. yes, blacks have been historically disadvantaged. Yes, there is still major fallout from that--it takes a while to catch up when other people had a head start on you. Yes, there is still even some active racism, although that has largely been dealt with. However, black people, as a group, aren't doing all that they should, either. it is hardly strictly a failure on the part of American society as a whole--the "system"."

I know you mean well here. But it is a failure of the system, man--specifically, the real estate industry, the banks, the criminal justice system, and the public education system. These institutions continue to perpetuate disparity. You cannot blame this on Joe Gangbanger and Susie Crackhead.

[Edited on February 8, 2007 at 7:29 PM. Reason : To be clear.]

2/8/2007 7:22:19 PM

^exactly

I can go on for days about how the criminal justice system is screwed along with a number of other institutions. I'm just going to say this, how in the hell can the minority (race) = the majority (offenders)? without something being seriously jacked up?

Yeah, there are some black who arn't doing "what they're supposed to be doing". As well as other races. But I be damned if you think that the system has nothing to do (heavily) with the problem. GET the fuck outta here, dude. Who are you kidding?

[Edited on February 8, 2007 at 7:29 PM. Reason : .]

2/8/2007 7:24:37 PM

Poor blacks aren't doing any better or worse than poor people of other ethnicities.

It's just that when society sees a poor black person acting a fool, they think "lol, black people." When we see a poor white person acting a fool, they think "lol, poor people."

2/8/2007 7:26:47 PM

Quote :

"Mr. Joshua: Bridget, what the fuck are you talking about? Can you support that with anything or is it just your unsubstantiated opinion? BTW, I remember teachers yelling at me for saying "Yeah" instead of "Yes.""

Take a course in linguistics. Any course.

And you'll see that, no, this is not just my unsubstantiated opinion.

[Edited on February 8, 2007 at 7:28 PM. Reason : To be clear.]

2/8/2007 7:27:50 PM

Well, I graduated, and I really don't feel like going back to college just to know what you are talking about.

Please explain, or just give me a link or two.

2/8/2007 7:33:36 PM

Okay. Here's another interpretation:

It all goes back to this concept of "standard English." Hardly anybody speaks standard English. So when someone says that black children need to learn to speak standard English, what they're really saying is that black children need to learn to speak like us (white people). And that's out-and-out racist.

2/8/2007 7:42:44 PM

It sounds like your linguistics class is a joke. Quit looking for racism where there is none. Most of society thinks it is important to be able to speak and write "proper English". While no one group has mastered this art, it's obvious that many inner-city blacks lag far behind others.

Quote :

"You cannot blame this on Joe Gangbanger and Susie Crackhead."

You cannot blame this (the state of blacks in America) wholly on racism and institutionalized discrimination, either.

It's obviously a combination of the two. To blame everything on "the system" is just as naive as blaming all racial disparities in America on blacks.

[Edited on February 8, 2007 at 7:53 PM. Reason : 2]

2/8/2007 7:52:57 PM

In conversation people will often inadvertently use incorrect grammar - however, this doesn't mean that they aren't speaking standard english. Foreigners who learn english in their home country learn the dialect that the majority speaks - I would call that standard english.

Teachers will teach in whatever dialect the majority of students speak. You can call that racism, but its simple economics. Democracy is rule by majority.

Quote :

"So when someone says that black children need to learn to speak standard English, what they're really saying is that black children need to learn to speak like us (white people)."

I want all children to speak "standard english" because speaking anything else will put them at a disadvantage in life. How is that racist?

2/8/2007 7:57:37 PM

Quote :

"I want all children to speak "standard english" because speaking anything else will put them at a disadvantage in life. How is that racist?"

There's no such thing as "standard English." Dialectic differences, including Black English, are a perfectly valid form of communication. People from Brooklyn or people from South Boston talk in certain ways that also make them seem stupider to you because the mainstream is prejudiced against these groups. Everyone, including you, has a dialect. I'm sure some Northerners think you're a dumb redneck just because of the way you speak, when that's not the case.

Quote :

"It sounds like your linguistics class is a joke. Quit looking for racism where there is none. Most of society thinks it is important to be able to speak and write "proper English". While no one group has mastered this art, it's obvious that many inner-city blacks lag far behind others."

No, it's a commonly-held theory throughout linguistics. What makes small-town Kansas English better than inner city black English? You don't like the way it sounds? People in both groups communicate effectively.

[Edited on February 8, 2007 at 8:03 PM. Reason : .]

2/8/2007 8:00:48 PM

You're saying that grammar and spelling don't mean shit, after you've been the biggest grammar bitch on TWW for the past year or 2?

2/8/2007 8:03:29 PM

Quote :

"Prawn Star: It sounds like your linguistics class is a joke."

Let me know when you're in a position to make that decision. Last time I checked, people who use the phrase "nigger fucker" aren't ideal.

Quote :

"Prawn Star: Quit looking for racism where there is none."

That's not what I'm doing. Regardless, don't tell me what to do.

Quote :

"Prawn Star: Most of society thinks it is important to be able to speak and write "proper English". While no one group has mastered this art, it's obvious that many inner-city blacks lag far behind others."

Of course blacks are more likely to lag behind others in speaking and writing the way white people want them to.

[Edited on February 8, 2007 at 8:05 PM. Reason : Better.]

2/8/2007 8:03:48 PM

^^ Everyone has a spoken dialect, nitwit. Writing and speaking are two different things.

[Edited on February 8, 2007 at 8:04 PM. Reason : .]

2/8/2007 8:04:22 PM

^They are pretty closely related, wouldn't you say? Would you agree that the English language has rules regardless of whether you are writing or speaking?

^^White English? Did you make that up, or did you get it from your linguistics class?

Lets talk about proper English. You know, the kind that the school system teaches. Is that "White English"?

[Edited on February 8, 2007 at 8:09 PM. Reason : nice edit]

2/8/2007 8:06:29 PM

^I changed it to make more sense, but I'll roll with it.

Yes, proper English is white English because the people who have determined what proper English is are WHITE!

And nobody speaks standard/proper English anyway.

2/8/2007 8:08:12 PM

Quote :

" I want all children to speak "standard english" because speaking anything else will put them at a disadvantage in life. How is that racist?"

1) Standard English is a contrivance of people who created rules for the English language without taking into account the language being spoken.

2) No one speaks Standard English, everyone speaks a dialect of English

3) Ebonics is more closely related to distinct dialects of England. Take ascian and axian for instance. Both have been acceptable for 1500 years in English. It just so happens that the majority of african american slaves came into contact with people who spoke axian.

4) The phonemes of today have change drastically over the years. People who lives 150 years ago would be talking the same shit about you today as you are of african americans who do not speak "standard" english.

2/8/2007 8:08:23 PM

Quote :

"Dialectic differences, including Black English, are a perfectly valid form of communication. People from Brooklyn or people from South Boston talk in certain ways that also make them seem stupider to you because the mainstream is prejudiced against these groups."

When did I ever say that "Black English" isn't a valid form of education or label thug talk as being exclusively black?

Anyone can be well spoken, regardless of accent. Proper grammar is an important sign that someone is educated, at least to some extent. How many regional dialects actually put a heavy emphasis on horrible grammar and sounding uneducated?

[Edited on February 8, 2007 at 8:12 PM. Reason : .]

2/8/2007 8:11:28 PM

So let me get this straight: It is ok to judge our President's intelligence level based on his struggles with English, but it's not ok to do the same for individual black people?

Just make up your mind, please.

2/8/2007 8:14:59 PM

If you were to pay attention to what I wrote, you'd realize that prescriptive grammar was created with no reference to spoken English. Spoken english and prescriptive grammar have been at odds with each other since people started writing grammars. All dialects are in disagreement with presecriptive grammar.

^there is a difference in fucking up sayings and not being able to read what is in front of you and speaking a different dialect.

[Edited on February 8, 2007 at 8:17 PM. Reason : .]

2/8/2007 8:15:57 PM

Quote :

"When did I ever say that "Black English" isn't a valid form of education or label thug talk as being exclusively black?"

I assumed by "thug talk" you meant "Black English." Could you share your personal distinction?

I thought we were just talking about a couple of the common stereotypical things:

What had happened was...

Lemme ax you dis...

Can I holla at a toof brush?

We was just drivin to the sto when da pOlice done up and stopped us fer nuffin...

[Edited on February 8, 2007 at 8:27 PM. Reason : ?]

2/8/2007 8:26:16 PM

Quote :

"I assumed by "thug talk" you meant "Black English." Could you share your personal distinction?"

As I said:

Quote :

"I don't care what color your skin is, if you choose to speak thug - a stupid dialect of english that actually applauds horrible grammar - then you deserve whatever life gives you."

White people can act and speak the same way. Isn't it kinda racist to think that "thug" automatically means black?

2/8/2007 8:35:16 PM

because thug has come to mean black. But I appreciate you completely ignoring what I typed and instead focusing on minutiae

2/8/2007 8:40:11 PM

To me the bigger problem is you want to blame whoever says "well he is well spoken", instead of looking at the reason why that seems unique.

Im sorry, but if someone axe me a question...they dont get the job.

2/8/2007 8:43:11 PM

then you are ignorant of the English language.

2/8/2007 8:45:40 PM

I ignored what you typed because every point you made is irrelevant to the discussion at hand, but I hope that you enjoy jerking off to how smart you are!

The irony is that its coming from the free minded brainiac who thinks that thug means black.

2/8/2007 8:51:58 PM

when i say thug i dont mean black, there are plenty of white thugs

2/8/2007 8:53:48 PM

Quote :

"I ignored what you typed because every point you made is irrelevant to the discussion at hand, but I hope that you enjoy jerking off to how smart you are! The irony is that its coming from the free minded brainiac who thinks that thug means black."

no, everything I wrote was on point. You just ignore it because it refutes every ill conceived misconception you've ever developed


as for thugs being black they are. just like whites are goons/hillbillies.

2/8/2007 8:56:09 PM

No, you didn't refute anything. Please reread the thread so that you have some clue as to what everyone else is talking about.

Quote :

"as for thugs being black they are. just like whites are goons/hillbillies."

Of course, if I were you, I would try to call you out by responding with an unrelated paragraph about how the term thug actually has hindi origins. Then I would tell you that I pwned you.

2/8/2007 9:01:31 PM

Quote :

"Mr. Joshua: White people can act and speak the same way. Isn't it kinda racist to think that "thug" automatically means black?"

You framed it in racial terms. Here's the paragraph before you brought up thugs:

Quote :

"Mr. Joshua: Wrong. Anybody who speaks like they are from the ghetto won't get anywhere unless they give Dre a kick ass demo."

And, no, I don't think it's racist for me to think you meant black when you used the word "thug." After all, we were talking about black people.

"I don't care what color your skin is..." is just how people preface racially charged rhetoric; it's a safety net of sorts.

[Edited on February 8, 2007 at 9:11 PM. Reason : sss]

2/8/2007 9:11:03 PM

Quote :

"No, you didn't refute anything. Please reread the thread so that you have some clue as to what everyone else is talking about."

I've addressed everyone of your statements. You are just so ingrained in your thought that you wish to think blacks are uneducated because the dialect developed with in the african-american community from the time of slavery through current days is contradictary to your thoughts on the english language. Face it, every dialect is contrary to prescriptive grammar. That's what you are failing to grasp. You are also failing to grasp the understanding that ebonics is more closely related to british english than the forms spoken by white americans.

2/8/2007 9:17:32 PM

Quote :

"Wrong. Anybody who speaks like they are from the ghetto won't get anywhere unless they give Dre a kick ass demo."

How is that racial? Ghetto doesn't mean black - white people can be poor too. Maybe you're just thinking in racial terms whenever you read "thug" or "ghetto".

Quote :

""I don't care what color your skin is..." is just how people preface racially charged rhetoric; it's a safety net of sorts."

Thats a neat little trick you pulled there. I explained that my generalization wasn't specific to race which means that it is? Funny, my calendar doesn't mention 2/8 being opposite day.

Quote :

"I don't think it's racist for me to think you meant black when you used the word "thug.""

I used the term "speak thug" because I wasn't being specific to black people.

The point that I was making is that people who sound uneducated are at a disadvantage.

Quote :

"You are just so ingrained in your thought that you wish to think blacks are uneducated because the dialect developed with in the african-american community from the time of slavery through current days is contradictary to your thoughts on the english language."

You can read minds?!

When did I say that blacks are uneducated?

Quote :

"I've addressed everyone of your statements."

No, you introduced information that is only tangentially related to the topic at hand with the misconception that it would make a point.

[Edited on February 8, 2007 at 9:26 PM. Reason : .]

2/8/2007 9:21:53 PM

don't try to back out of your bullshit now. you used thug knowing exactly the conotations of it.

2/8/2007 9:22:59 PM

Theres nothing to back out of - at this point you're just trying not to look like a racist.

Google definitions of thug and tell me how many define it as exclusive to blacks.

2/8/2007 9:29:27 PM

so now he wants to take it back to its etymological beginings.

2/8/2007 9:30:41 PM

No, I was just mocking you when I said that.

Here, I'll save you some work:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=thug

2/8/2007 9:32:01 PM

Quote :

"How is that racial? Ghetto doesn't mean black - white people can be poor too. Maybe you're just thinking in racial terms whenever you read "thug" or "ghetto"."

If you're gonna be silly like this, there's no reason for me to argue with you.

Most everybody acknowledges the stereotype that ghettos are for poor black people and trailor parks are for poor white people.

Anyway...

Next time you feel the need to judge the language another person uses, question yourself. Just think about it.

That's all for me.

2/8/2007 9:32:35 PM

so you are making fun of me because I poked holes in your stupid statement about blakcs being the only group to delineate from prescriptive grammar?

2/8/2007 9:33:22 PM

Quote :

"So when someone says that black children need to learn to speak standard English, what they're really saying is that black children need to learn to speak like us (white people)."

Stop trying to excuse people talking like idiots.

Imagine for a second you were reading essays for college entrance exams, and you came across one that ready the following:

YO I WANNA BE IN DIS COLLEGE CUZ DIS SHIT IS SO TIGHT RIGHT HURR GNOME SAYIN? MAN DIS FUCKIN SHIT IS DA SHIZNIT AND DIS COLLEGE BE AIGHT YO. PEACE NIGGUZZZ.

Are you saying to me that this is simply a dialect and we should excuse this sort of language as completely acceptable in an educated and civilized society?

2/8/2007 9:35:13 PM

Lik omg I soooo wanna go here <3<3<3

It Would mAke me soo000 if didn't get in

pleaseeeeee pretty pleeeeeeeas lte me in



Internet speak is just as bad as thug speak

2/8/2007 9:38:14 PM

No, I would not find that acceptable for a college entrance essay.

But I also wouldn't find it unacceptable for conversation in this "educated and civilized" society.

And, by the way, I have never heard a person speak like that. Ever. Your impression is way off.

[Edited on February 8, 2007 at 9:40 PM. Reason : sss]

2/8/2007 9:39:53 PM

^^ And yes, I'm not excusing that either. However since this thread was started on, and has been focused on, "Black-speak," that's where I'm basing my argument.


^You've obviously never watched MTV Cribs

2/8/2007 9:41:14 PM

Quote :

"If you're gonna be silly like this, there's no reason for me to argue with you."

I never wanted to argue over semantics in the first place.

Quote :

"Most everybody acknowledges the stereotype that ghettos are for poor black people and trailor parks are for poor white people."

And thats not racist?

Quote :

"Next time you feel the need to judge the language another person uses, question yourself. Just think about it."

Cool.

Quote :

"so you are making fun of me because I poked holes in your stupid statement about blakcs being the only group to delineate from prescriptive grammar?"

I'm not making fun of you, I'm just responding to your stupid claims that you aren't racist, but I am.

You didn't poke holes in anything. I never said that blacks are the only group, I just claimed that thug speak is the only dialect that applauds incorrect grammar. If I missed another group, feel free to point it out.

This was just another failed attempt by you to call someone out by presenting information that has nothing to do with the subject at hand in an effort to make yourself feel intelligent.

[Edited on February 8, 2007 at 9:44 PM. Reason : .]

2/8/2007 9:44:30 PM

HEY GUYS, I TOOK CULTURAL ANTHROPOLOGY
LANGUAGE IS SUPPOSED TO CHANGE
LOOK AT ME

2/8/2007 10:01:57 PM

Quote :

"I never said that blacks are the only group, I just claimed that thug speak is the only dialect that applauds incorrect grammar. If I missed another group, feel free to point it out."

I know what you meant. You've said multiple times.

Language doesn't work that way. People don't applaud themselves for speaking a certain way.

It's not like there's a get-together where people decide to speak a certain way and then drink beers to celebrate the new changes they've made.

2/8/2007 10:38:00 PM

In response to the original post, while I thought Biden's comment was definitely condescending, Bush's comment (based on the quote posted by Red Guard) doesn't automatically come across as condescending to me.

This "speaks so well" thing that people complained about with Colin Powell and Obama is being blown out of proportion. In my opinion, both guys have an energy and genuineness that's lacking in most politicians, white or black. Most others seem stiff and fake.

So while there is sometimes racism lurking beneath, people shouldn't automatically get on someone's case because they chose a hot-button word to make a legitimate compliment.

2/8/2007 10:40:09 PM