I hear that a lot but I'd like to see how many other mlb teams have minor league affiliates surrounding them.

I seriously doubt people would just forget about the bulls.

and you only need to draw 10-20k on weekdays and fill up on weekends.


you dont have to have capacity crowd every day.


and as said ... comparing community support in NC for hockey and baseball is laughable.

2/20/2007 8:35:23 AM

Quote :

"You might not like baseball but that doesn't mean you should ignore the many positives a stadium "

haha, NyM410...you got me
you know i dont like baseball

2/20/2007 9:19:37 AM

Look at the markets also and the other cities that surrond the teams. I mean Even Kansas City is alot larger than Raleigh. We just are not as compacted into a city as other places. If you think that people will pay for the tickets to go to the pro games your crazy. Thats why people like the bulls and mud cat tickets they are cheap and you get good baseball. I am not saying that some games wouldn't sell out with certain MLB teams in town but for the most part I don't think Raleigh is large enouhg to support a MLB team.

2/20/2007 9:39:21 AM

Why would they put it in Raleigh and not Charlotte?

Especially when Charlotte is improving infrastructure, etc. They could put it on the rail line in S Charlotte.

Definitely won't put it in a prime park like this.

2/20/2007 9:40:02 AM

I would definately go to some games if Raleigh had MLB, tickets would probably be real cheap too.

2/20/2007 9:51:07 AM

Quote :

"If you think that people will pay for the tickets to go to the pro games your crazy. T"

I got tickets to a 3 game series O's v Red Sox when the sox were in first place in camden yards for 9 for the first 2 games and 10 for the finale ... hardly breaking the bank bulls games are what ... 7 each ?



baseball games in general are incredibly inexpensive for the average fan

[Edited on February 20, 2007 at 10:43 AM. Reason : .]

2/20/2007 10:39:36 AM

MLB would not work in Raleigh because of the lack of a salary cap for baseball. Revenue sharing and salary caps are the only reason medium sized cities are able to field major league sports teams.

2/20/2007 10:43:05 AM

... ? what exactly is raleigh then, or charlotte for arguments sake

[Edited on February 20, 2007 at 10:46 AM. Reason : v]

2/20/2007 10:46:28 AM

Charlotte, I'd say, is on the avergae size for a major league town. Raleigh is on the small end. Neither could support a financially viable baseball team. This is not a knock against either city. It's a knock against MLB. Until the players relent and allow for a salaray cap, small and medium market teams will continue to struggle to stay afloat in MLB.

2/20/2007 10:55:48 AM

Quote :

"They actually split us up in 2005. Raleigh-Cary MSA and Chapel Hill-Durham MSA"

True, but for us not to be combined back into one large MSA within 5 years (with perhaps all 4 cities) would be slightly if not all out retarded on the government's part.

But thats besides the point.

Yes the Hurricanes finally turned a profit last year. But its also b/c they don't have a revenue sharing plan like MLB. Have you been to a TB/KC/FL game? You mean to tell me that Raleigh couldnt do just as good as their fans?

Quote :

"Raleigh can't support an mlb team now but its almost inevitable that in 10 years there will be HIGH demand for one. theres no teams east of the hurricanes and most of nc is growing like crazy (especially the triangle)."

Excatly.

And we don't need another Minor League team. The Bulls have enough history and support, that a new MiLB team would be redundant. So why not think bigger?

2/20/2007 10:57:59 AM

Quote :

"small and medium market teams will continue to struggle to stay afloat in MLB."

that's nonsense


the devil rays put 7-8 thousand people in the seats for week games... 7-8 burlington could foster 7-8 k people. raleigh or charlotte would produce quite a bit more.

2/20/2007 11:02:36 AM

Maybe stay afloat wasn't the correct term. They will struggle to be competitve though.

2/20/2007 11:12:04 AM

the twins and the brewers have historically struggled to contend ... yet still they are there

2/20/2007 11:14:56 AM

The Twins??? They won the 91 Series and have won the AL Central what 5 out of 6 years?

How are they struggling?

Charlotte would get a team, not Raleigh. People from both Carolinas could come then. I would go and Im an hour from Charlotte at home.

2/20/2007 12:00:17 PM

historically encompasses more than the last 5 years .... but possibly the twins weren't the best example. you get the point I was making

2/20/2007 12:08:04 PM

http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/min/ballpark/index.jsp

The Twins are even getting a new stadium.



However in 2004 they only pulled more than 30,000 fans 10 times. And in June of 2005 they had atleast 9.

but thats the most they've had in a 10-13 game time span since 1991. Their WS years.
The link is too long to post, and i hate it when the script extends the page. But look up attendance on the Twins Homepage.

So yes, even the twins were struggling for more than a dozen years to fill seats. And when they did it wasnt even to capacity.

How could Raleigh not fill 20,000 seats nightly for $10 a pop in the cheap seats?

[Edited on February 20, 2007 at 12:10 PM. Reason : delete link]

[Edited on February 20, 2007 at 12:11 PM. Reason : again i'm dumb]

2/20/2007 12:09:33 PM

Quote :

"Charlotte would get a team, not Raleigh. People from both Carolinas could come then. I would go and Im an hour from Charlotte at home."

I disagree. Raleigh would be MUCH more likely to get a pro baseball team than Charlotte is. Reason being is Raleigh is a growing area, as is Charlotte. However within 2.5 hours of Raleigh is Richmond, Tidewater area (Norfolk etc), Charlotte, Triad. Charlotte doesn't have that.. When I say much more likely I mean it goes from 0% to .000001%.

I'd like to see some figures on the population of the Charlotte MSA compared to the Raleigh-Durham MSA to see how realistic it would be for Charlotte to suppost THREE pro teams while Raleigh only has 1. Charlotte metro is surely not double that of Raleigh-Durham... If Charlotte got ANOTHER major pro sports franchise the market there would be completely saturated that it would likely force one team out within a decade.

-----------

As far as the weekday games attendance question. First off, in this market you wouldn't build a stadium with a capacity greater than 35-38k, much like Pittsburgh and the new Oakland stadium will be. I mean for fucks sake even the new Mets stadium is only 45k (w/ SRO) and they sell 3-4 million tix a year right now. Second those games account for a VERY SMALL percentage of overall games. MAYBE you'll have 3 or 4 of those a year if you're not the Cubs..

One more thing.. As far as I know MLB has no true revenue sharing policy. The luxury tax, at least in the past, was the only thing that compensated the small market teams. The Yankees are the ONLY team in '07 over the luxury tax threshold so the effect the small market teams will see will be minimal at best..


[Edited on February 20, 2007 at 12:18 PM. Reason : x]

2/20/2007 12:10:49 PM

It would be awesome to have a MLB team here....but do you think they would be able to drum up the support fan wise on a consistant basis to support it ? Not saying they wouldn't ....just asking ?

2/20/2007 1:01:00 PM

Where did the idea come from that the Hurricanes lose money? It's not true. Sure, the figures that they tell you about at the end of the season may show that. The franchise itself may lose money, but the owners make money. Nobody would want to own most of the teams in pro sports if the owners didn't make money every single year. Trust me, Peter Karmanos is doing just fine.

For example, the LA Clippers have long been an example of this. Donald Sterling, the owner, was notorious for never spending a dime on his teams. They always sucked, had low attendance figures and he never signed any quality free agents (until recently). And yet the Clippers were one of the most profitable teams in the NBA.

2/20/2007 1:01:40 PM

^^^ For NyM410, 2005 estimates of separate MSAs:

Charlotte-Gastonia-Concord MSA: 1,521,278 (36th in nation)
Charlotte-Gastonia-Salisbury CSA: 2,120,745

Raleigh-Cary MSA: 914,680 (51st)
Durham-Chapel Hill MSA: 451,212 (103rd)
Broken up since 2003
Raleigh-Durham-Cary-Dunn CSA: 1,509,560

Fayetteville MSA: 502,963

[Edited on February 20, 2007 at 1:32 PM. Reason : .]

2/20/2007 1:24:50 PM

with 306 acres you could easily build a huge stadium / parking lots / a park / and high rise condos right there on the property

right beside downtown

and everybody would be happy

imagine what that could do for nc state to have something like that so close to the school

it would help improve downtown Raleigh DRASTICALLY

[Edited on February 20, 2007 at 1:39 PM. Reason : ]

2/20/2007 1:37:58 PM

Bring cheap beer to the stadium on a nightly basis and the people shall come. $1 PBR or hell even $2 Bud or Bud Light and there will be packed house! End of argument

2/20/2007 1:46:06 PM

Just think of the revenue that something like an "Allstar Game" would bring to Raleigh....but these bible beating rednecks will never stand for anything that forward thinking.....

2/20/2007 2:01:34 PM

not going to happen. move along.

i wouldn't be opposed to a minor league park there though.

2/20/2007 2:02:33 PM

Seriously what owner out there doesn't salivate at the thought of having to sell beers for $1 to get people to come.

2/20/2007 2:02:49 PM

Well all I have to say is with baseball being my favorite sport It would be awesome, but probably not to realistic......sigh

2/20/2007 2:07:17 PM

Never said it was benficial for the owner, but it would be a ticket selling point. Especially with the numerous colleges located around Raleigh.

2/20/2007 2:16:17 PM

about 10yrs ago, a north carolina guy (don beaver -- he owns several minor league teams in NC) tried to buy the twins and relocate them to the triad

i just googled to get the details and it looks like the twins owner was just trying to scare up a new stadium though so i don't know how close it was to really happening...

i don't think raleigh was mentioned as a possible host city at the time though, i think charlotte was and the triad for sure

from wikipedia (not a great source, but i can't find too much info since this was in '97 apparently):

Quote :

"In 1997, owner Carl Pohlad almost sold the Twins to North Carolina businessman Don Beaver, who would have moved the team to the Piedmont Triad (Greensboro - Winston-Salem - High Point) area of the state. The defeat of a referendum for a stadium in that area and a lack of interest in building a stadium for the Twins in Charlotte killed the deal."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Twins

this turned up as well when i was searching -- 'is north carolina ready?'

http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/199710/03_kastem_ncready/

2/20/2007 2:52:27 PM

obviously market capacity isnt the only factor for a sports franchise, but the following links say that no markets outside of LA and NY/NJ could support a new baseball team

http://www.bizjournals.com/specials/2006/0213/sports_expansion/1.html?hbx=slide_sport_article

http://www.bizjournals.com/specials/2006/0213/major_metros_chart.html?hbx=slide_sport_article

2/20/2007 3:07:06 PM

^ by bizjournal's logic Charlotte is at only a 3% capacity to host a MLB team, Raleigh-Durham is at 49%, and the Triad is at a whoping 90%.

so by their logic all of us here look like idiots. Greensboro is where its at.




No offense to your post mi amigo, just bizjournal.

2/20/2007 5:04:38 PM

It makes sense if you think about it. The Triad has a relatively decent population with no major pro sports team in the market. That doesn't mean that it would best work there just that the population could theoretically support it. Charlotte has 2 major pro sports teams and a third would completely saturate that market. People can only spend so much money on entertainment and ~10-13 home NFL games (preseason and postseason inc.), 41 NBA home games, and 81 home MLB games would be overkill for that population.

That doesn't account for the 'central' location that Raleigh would have with Richmond, Charlotte, Tidewater, and the Triad all being within easy day trip driving range.

2/20/2007 5:19:49 PM

Well see thats the thing. Going off population alone doesn't do you justice in proposing a new ballpark. Its gotta be growth and surrounding regions you can pull from.

I mean otherwise bizjournal makes all the sense. And we'd have NFL teams in Roanoke.

2/20/2007 5:26:43 PM