^Only if you work for a corporate giant, and even then, only if you don't have the skills (social and in your expertise) to move through the ranks the right way.

Most of the higher level exec's I know who absolutely despise the schmooze job bullshit. From my own experience, I've gotten more business than I could ever handle just by being myself and doing good work.

Makes me sick watching shows like The Apprentice, which just show how completely incompetent business people are.

2/22/2007 7:46:09 PM

there is also a big difference between kissing up and networking. darren and i both have our jobs thanks to our networking efforts and rapport with professors. there are a couple of people i would consider kissups, but it isn't the majority at all.

i think this is the classic engineers vs. business people thing though. it's mostly engineers seeing people as "kissups" when a large majority of that is strong networking efforts. some people are more outgoing than others and honestly, the hard workers that know how to network will make it much further than the smartest person in the world who keeps their head down.

and to the engineers and technical people who have business knowledge...put yourself out there even if it feels like "kissing up" every now and then. business mirrors high school in many ways and sometimes the best employees don't get the recognition they deserve by not speaking up.

Noen's comment applies though...this is mostly for larger companies. i'm lucky enough to have a balance where my bosses are straight shooters and there is no amount of kissing up involved. we all have a solid technical background, but for the most part are business people. our vp of manufacturing is heavily engineering, but that's to be expected.

[Edited on February 22, 2007 at 7:52 PM. Reason : .]

2/22/2007 7:49:55 PM

^ right on

2/22/2007 8:01:10 PM

Quote :

" think this is the classic engineers vs. business people thing though. it's mostly engineers seeing people as "kissups" when a large majority of that is strong networking efforts."

I've been a self-employed entrepreneur for almost 9 years now. And yes, it's ass kissing. I don't think the majority of business kids know what REAL networking is. That's what happens on the golf course, at the bar, watching the game or listening to the band.

"Networking" is not sitting in a room trying to frantically introduce yourself to as many people who can give you jobs as possible, telling them how great you are and how valuable and asset you would be to their organization. It's not knowing everything about the guy's company or their business model or giving them suggestions for improvements. It's not telling some guy your life story or trying to out-do the guy standing next to you.

Here's a recent example of what *I* consider networking:

I'm standing in line for a cigar, there's a guy hand rolling them at this particular event. I'm standing behind this guy talking to his buddy. Guy happens to mention St. Maarten and sailing. I interject and ask how he liked it, that I used to live there. For the next 30 minutes we talk about sailing, the caribbean and various activities. Then I introduce myself and he introduces himself, he tells me what he does, which happens to interest me and I have some background in the matter, so we talk about it for a bit. He gets up to the roller, we exchange cards, he tells me to give him a shout the next week, and we part ways.

I never mentioned once my credentials, that I wanted anything, no business speak, no nothing. And I now have a high level exec who I can talk to anytime I need that wants to do business with me.

/words

But really, there's a BIG difference there. I've never seen ANYTHING REMOTELY CLOSE to that at any career fair or Business School event. Instead I see squadrons of MBA drones with fancy cover letters and resumes, in the same suits, talking the same jibber jabber that was force fed to them from a textbook.

^^Yea, I'm not saying this as a personal response to you BTW, this is just a general trend that infuriates me. I can speak from experience that you have always been a pretty good, well balanced guy.

[Edited on February 22, 2007 at 8:04 PM. Reason : . ]

2/22/2007 8:02:57 PM

im not reading all this but i did read one post

ssjamind is full of wisdom as usual

i could've gone anywhere, but i got PAID to get my mba at state and while my salary isn't anything to make me the pride of my family and the envy of my peers the fact that i'll get 100% of it as a performance bonus this year makes up for it

i stayed in the area, which was a factor for me, but i've also gotten to work in a variety of industries and built out my resume past what you would expect for someone with 10 years more experience

i'm just happy the program is getting some recognition - the students and faculty are great

oh and our career services woman was worthless, once she got the boot things took off

2/22/2007 8:04:29 PM

Quote :

"Total tuition: $38,000]"

[Edited on February 22, 2007 at 9:46 PM. Reason : asf]

2/22/2007 9:46:33 PM

Someone in the FE prep class this week didn't know the relationship between period and frequency.

Quote :

"plz tell me four classes in the ECE program that BUS majors would find easy. thx. "

Any four of the classes that person took.

2/23/2007 12:09:03 AM

Quote :

""Thunderbird School of Global Management" "

Quote :

"WTF is this? Sounds like one of those online schools. "

It is not an online school. It's one of top business school specializing in International Business.
http://www.thunderbird.edu/about_thunderbird/rankings/index.htm

My boss, who is in my company's management, graduated from there.

[Edited on February 23, 2007 at 12:27 AM. Reason : a]

2/23/2007 12:25:55 AM

I quoted this earlier but didn't expand on it.

It said the average tuition for the State MBA program was $38,000.

That was by far the lowest out of the top 30 schools (next lowest was ~$50,000).

The low tuition costs at State was one of the main reasons I came to NCSU from out of state. The quality of education you get here (whether it be in business, engineering, or ag) is well worth the price you have to pay.

2/23/2007 12:35:32 AM

Is a non top-ranked business school actually worth anything, salary wise? I made more than the ncsu business school average when I was a BS engineering noob. Doesn't seem as though that NCSU MBA (and required experience) is getting you a hell of a whole lot.

2/23/2007 12:40:37 AM

^ I have a Business 2.0 cover story from July 2002 titled "What's an MBA Worth? A lot less than you think, according to two conterversial new studies." The studies were done by Jeffrey Pfeffer, a management professor at Stanford, and AACSB (Association to Advance Collegiate Schools of Business).

To summarize, in many cases, the studies seemed to suggest that the MBA is not really worth it. The following are quotations from the piece:

Quote :

"It has long been common wisdom that gaining an MBA from any but a top-tier school was a losing proposition. Go to Harvard, it was said, and in time you'll earn back your tuition and opportunity cost in higher salary. Go to a school ranked below, say, the University of Rochester, and you probably won't recover your investment."

Quote :

"'At the height of the bubble, our typical client wanted its CEO to be a bright, young up-and-comer with an MBA from a good school,' says Scott Gordon, director of Spencer Stuart's tech-industry recruiting practice. 'Today, real-world experience is far more important. An MBA alone just doesn't open the doors it once did.'"

Quote :

"You don't have to tell that to John Damon (MBA, University of San Francisco, 2000). He's been living off unemployment and savings since he was laid off last August. 'It's a real eye-opener for those of us who went to school and got our MBAs,' Damon says, 'because we never thought we'd be in this situation. When things got bad, the degree didn't seem to matter.'"

2/23/2007 1:50:12 AM

Quote :

"An MBA alone just doesn't open the doors it once did."

well durr. anyone who thinks an mba alone will get you anywhere is stupid, same for any degree. it's about how you execute and portray yourself, not what's framed and hanging on your wall. i've yet to see an ncsu mba act like an arrogant prick, but i have seen it from duke, unc, and wake forest mbas at career fairs...hence our high rating from recruiters.

2/23/2007 2:04:25 AM

I know it was many posts ago, but I just wanted to laugh about the Engineering vs. Business bickering, you people (both sides) need to get over yourselves

I think it's awesome that our Business school is getting attention, in my few experiences with companies none of them even send recruiters to our campus or really get any people from our school interviewing.

I just hope we keep getting mentioned more and more so hopefully bigger companies take the initiative to send recruiters to NCSU.

[Edited on February 23, 2007 at 2:09 AM. Reason : clarification]

2/23/2007 2:07:28 AM

^^ The study, the report, and the article are much more involved than these few quotations indicate. But I'm sure you could look the guy up at Stanford and send an e-mail to tell him how stupid he is.

^ I agree.





[Edited on February 23, 2007 at 2:14 AM. Reason : .]

2/23/2007 2:09:53 AM

it's common sense though. anyone who thinks a degree will get them a job is going to use that as a crutch. the degree opens the door to let you prove yourself. my mba has gotten my foot in the door for several great opportunities...from there it's my responsibility to turn it into something.

that's all i meant. any frat-tastic, textbook quoting, self-righteous mba won't make it. we all know the type though...it's the same thing as people who live off of daddy's money and when put into a level playing field, they'll be outworked by someone else.

2/23/2007 2:15:46 AM

^ Okay, that's a bit clearer. I get your point.

But the article wasn't addressing your point at all. These in-depth studies examined whether the investment in an MBA is worth the cost. Unfortunately, in most cases, the answer is no.

Quote :

"I have never found career benefits for the MBA degree. Usually it just makes you a couple years older than your non-MBA peers."

Jeffrey Pfeffer, management professor, Stanford, and author of the study

NB: I'm not saying that this is my position--I'm just reporting. As a matter of fact, daring to take a position without my own study as evidence, I would be inclined to disagree.

2/23/2007 2:24:41 AM

The same thing could be said about a computer science degree vs. getting 4 years experience as a plumber or in the electrician union.

Compare a journeyman electrician with a typical CHASS or COM undergrad salary and you could argue that college in general is not worth the time and money.

Moody makes a great point. Some people look at college as an opportunity and take the inititative to learn (in and out of class) and work hard and explore their choices. Those people will probably do well whether they go to Harvard, NC State or ECU. Other people think image is more important than substance, and those people need the pedigree of a top-ranked MBA because they don't really offer much on their own.

2/23/2007 12:02:43 PM

WRAL just reported that the magazine made a mistake and actually UNC's business school was credited to NCSU or something like that

2/24/2007 3:15:36 AM

Quote :

"This latest [Fortune] list is why everyone should view these types of rankings with skepticism. I'm not one to defend UNC, but the Kenan-Flagler Business School is in the top 20 BusinessWeek rankings and it scores very high in various types of ranking by other publications."

http://www.kenan-flagler.unc.edu/About/rankings.cfm

2/24/2007 3:24:05 AM

From http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2007/fortune/0702/gallery.mba50.fortune/8.html

Quote :

"Note: Kenan-Flagler Business School, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, was incorrectly listed in the 2006 QS recruiter survey and thus does not appear in this year's rankings. The school will be included in next year's survey. We regret the error. "

2/24/2007 11:54:49 AM

Quote :

"WRAL just reported that the magazine made a mistake and actually UNC's business school was credited to NCSU or something like that "

AHAHA

hilarious

2/25/2007 12:16:04 AM

Quote :

" Makes me sick watching shows like The Apprentice, which just show how completely incompetent business people are."

how can i possibly take this seriously?

2/25/2007 12:16:39 AM

^^they didn't say that. there was a mistake with how unc's information was compiled and it may have prevented them from being ranked.

[Edited on February 25, 2007 at 12:43 AM. Reason : .]

2/25/2007 12:42:52 AM

regardless

judging by ncsu being #25 and unc not ranked, this list has no merit whatsoever

2/25/2007 10:49:09 AM

When asked about the final score of the February 2nd game, UNC explained the loss by saying that the officials confused their basketball team with another North Carolina school (NC State) that is not even ranked by the major ranking publications.

2/25/2007 3:02:41 PM

http://mgt.ncsu.edu/news/2006/ranking_usnewsMBA.php

Quote :

"April 3, 2006 - The NC State College of Management MBA program is gaining recognition as a quality business school, as reflected in its rise in U.S.News & World Report’s America’s Best Graduate Schools 2007 rankings. The college tied for 29th place for MBA programs at public universities and 59th place overall in the publication’s annual survey of business schools accredited by the AACSB International. The MBA program was ranked 74th overall in the 2006 listing. "

I heard Dr. Aiman Smith say State MBAs have all the skills and none of the attitude. If many State MBA students have engineering degrees instead of history degrees, they're good with math and analysis. Add in good work experience and good attitude and being willing to roll up their sleeves and get to work. With all of that, plus being ranked 59th overall by U.S.News & World Report last year, it sounds reasonable they're ranked 25th in being hired.

The UNC temper tantrum, and lying about NC State not being ranked at all, may be a good indication why the whiny bitches don't get hired. Recruiters don't like crybabies.

2/25/2007 3:25:38 PM

i really just dont think unc mba students are having a hard time getting hired

but what do i know

i bet all these schools have 100% placement so wheres the differentiation? and no, i did not read the article, just glanced through it

2/25/2007 3:42:52 PM

Hult International Business School made this list with an average GMAT of 580. Florida, Case Western, and one or two Ivy league schools that should've made it also didn't.

you NC State haters need not get your panties in a wad.

this is one of several lists - one of many points of view. other lists will rank us low or leave us completely off. its going to be ok.

2/25/2007 5:24:57 PM

Quote :

"jesus christ - is the triangle hurting for MBA grads or something? no offense, but a 610 avg GMAT is a joke (and I mean a big fucking joke), and an average salary of $73k is a waste of $19k a year tuition "

You've been in San Diego too long. 73k base is nothin in Southern California, but it's a damn good salary in the triangle.

2/25/2007 5:27:46 PM

610 avg gmat?

lol

2/25/2007 5:47:08 PM

one of my classmates just accepted a "new grad" job with nortel starting at $85,000 base. he didn't qualify for the 6% signing bonus because they said he didn't have enough experience, but there are plenty of ncsu mbas making major money in this area as well as others.

2/25/2007 5:50:10 PM

i don't expect that average to be 610 for long

we're a young program

2/25/2007 6:00:38 PM

this first year class it was 600...i made a 610 on the gmat...so i'm pretty average in that regard

i didn't study and signed up 2 days before the test, so i'll take it.

but it's just like the sat...the highest gmat doesn't equal the best business person.

[Edited on February 25, 2007 at 6:05 PM. Reason : .]

2/25/2007 6:05:12 PM

how far above the average GMAT must you be to get a scholarship or assistantship?

e.g. if the average was ~700 +/- 10
Is 720 enough or would one need a 750?

Full-time programs, specifically

2/26/2007 11:47:24 PM

gmat has zero to do with it.

it's depends on when you're accepted, the number of spots, and the amount of people who apply for them. once the slots are filled, that's it.

2/26/2007 11:59:27 PM

Grad schools try to woo top applicants with their scholarships, just like undergrad.

So yes, a high GMAT score will help. Good luck scoring a 750, though. Less than 1% of all test takers score 750 or above.

2/27/2007 3:28:36 AM

Quote :

"Dear MBA students: Yesterday CNNMoney.com pulled the Fortune/QS ranking of the "Top 50 Business Schools for Getting Hired." Here is the rationale given on the website: The data for the list was provided by an outside vendor, Quacquarelli Symonds Ltd. (QS), and it has come to our attention there are potential flaws in the provided data and the data survey methodology. These flaws in methodology may have resulted in University of North Carolina’s Kenan-Flagler Business School and Boston University School of Management being omitted from the list. Everyone in the NC State MBA community should know that our office verified that the data on percentage placed, starting salary, and job offers per graduate reported for NC State were actual data for NC State. These factors combined accounted for 50 percent of our Fortune ranking. The other 50 percent was based on a survey of recruiters. Based on last year's US News survey where we rated #38 nationally on that dimension, our Fortune recruiter evaluation also should have been "Top 50" caliber. I raise these points because stories have been circulating about possible mingling of recruiter-reported data between UNC-CH and NC State. If such mingling has taken place, it is by no means clear whether it would have raised or lowered NC State's score! The success of our program can be measured in many dimensions -- enrollment growth, placement rates, and student satisfaction, among others -- but ultimately there is only one measure that counts: the success of our graduates. I am extremely proud of what this program is accomplished in a relatively short period of time. And I am not going to keep it a secret! Best wishes, -------------------------- Steven G. Allen Associate Dean for Graduate Programs & Research College of Management North Carolina State University Box 7229 Raleigh, NC 27695-7229 Phone: (919) 515-6941 Fax: (919) 515-5073 MBA page: http://www.mba.ncsu.edu Personal page: http://www4.ncsu.edu/~sgallen/index.htm"

2/28/2007 6:22:29 PM

everyone has an MBA these days...

2/28/2007 7:09:49 PM

^you still play gears? i haven't played a video game in about 2 months thanks to school and work...

2/28/2007 7:24:02 PM

yall, the poor engineers get all pissy because stupid business grads(that had a easy ass major compared to the tough tough though engineering major) are there boss and they have no engineering background. I can see why the engineers would get all pissy. Just remember engineers, we also do the firing.....

[Edited on February 28, 2007 at 10:51 PM. Reason : w]

2/28/2007 10:49:35 PM

do you do the spell checking also?
i hope not....

2/28/2007 11:28:19 PM