^^ renewable resource for the most part is something that hippies came up with.

This country underwent one of the most worthless programs of all time when someone invented recycling. What a GIGANTIC waste of money. I cant think of anything less productive. And yet there are people championing the cause. Its disgusting.

So many of you have such a third grade mindset. It sounds great to give away free healthcare. It sounds even better to give away free ipods!! I don't understand why we charge people for things, if everyone got them for free we'd all be so much better off!! THe government wouldnt even have to print money anymore.

Seriously, grow up. You champion crappy causes without thinking of their ramifications. You hurt the poor more than you help. Putting a luxury tax on yachts sounded like a great idea at one point. I mean hell only RICH people buy yachts, right?!?!? It's too bad how many shipbuilders you put out of a job. As a rule of thumb most shipbuilders are not rich. Who would have thought that that exorbitant taxes might lead to inefficiencies?

Corporate taxes are great. I mean corporations arent even people, right!?!? They just hoarde money. We should do something about that. Look at exxon. They made way too much money last year. No one should make money off oil, especially 78 year old grandmothers who wait on their dividend checks in the mail so that they can eat and make co-payments on their medical bills.

I think single moms living in poverty should raise as many kids as possible. For every 5 kids they have, one of them may even make it into college someday! Who cares if 50% of them end up in jail and are forced to sit there rotting away at my expense. It's not really a big deal...

We should subsidize charities even more. Instead of rich people investing their money, innovating, and making everyone's life better we should tell them to give their money away to "non-profit" organizations that usually have thieving accountants. Who cares if for every $1 in charitable donations only 25 cents makes it to the cause. At least that money isn't taxable so the marginal tax rate can be higher for poor people!!! I mean they won't care if they have to pay more money in taxes as long as the Boys & Girls club has a lot of Nintendo 64 games/controllers!!!


Ford is projected to go under in 3 years. We should really do something about that. Who cares that they haven't made a relevant product in nearly a decade. Who cares that the minute Ford stops producing automobiles that cars will be cheaper across the nation for us. Who cares that 70% of the people who work for Ford would be eligible to make more money at another career if we offered them free job training. I don't want a Ford Focus, you don't want a Ford Focus, but dammit I believe that anyone who wants to produce a Ford Focus should be allowed to do it. And if they lose money producing it for the 7th year in a row maybe the government can just give them their money back. I mean a world without Ford Focuses would be unbearable!!

[Edited on March 3, 2007 at 6:44 PM. Reason : a]

3/3/2007 6:40:27 PM

Quote :

"people like this guy make college degrees worth less."

true.

but here is an amendment which makes it truer:

people like this guy make college degrees worthless.

3/3/2007 6:40:31 PM

It's sad that having a firm grasp of reality makes one sound "uneducated" to you.

That should really tell you something about a technical education.

If life was a My Little Pony cartoon we could just fly away anytime something made us uncomfortable.

3/3/2007 6:47:51 PM

what reality? The bullshit spewed by Limbaugh and Coulter?

3/3/2007 8:09:32 PM

Look i know we all live in little suburbia where even the "poor" people drive Honda Civics and maybe thats why people dont really grasp the reality of poverty.

Well here's the reality:

Your flawed policies and ideology are the cause of further suffering, not the solution.

By wasting resources you make everyone worse off. Not just rich people.

3/3/2007 8:54:06 PM

please go kill yourself

seriously.

and hurry up already.

3/3/2007 9:15:17 PM

RallyDurham won the fuck out of this thread.

His opponents have been reduced to responses like "kill yourself please"

3/3/2007 9:20:13 PM

I think some poor person pissed in this guy's cheerios or something.

You're like Salisburyboy except instead of Jews, you hate the poor.

^ How do you arguing someone using blatantly false statistics and refuses to back them up? You don't, you call them out for the troll they are and ridicule their idiocy, if you have time.

[Edited on March 3, 2007 at 9:21 PM. Reason : ]

3/3/2007 9:20:19 PM

^^ you too, motherfucker.

3/3/2007 9:55:36 PM

Quote :

"RallyDurham won the fuck out of this thread. His opponents have been reduced to responses like "kill yourself please""

3/3/2007 11:33:13 PM

Quote :

"The big problem with a welfare state is that it doesn't succeed in the goal of reduccing poverty."

Depends. It seems to help in some European countries.

3/4/2007 12:20:36 AM

Quote :

"blatantly false statistics"

Where are these?

At the top i just listed about 5 anecdotes that pretty much sum up your childish ideology. I can go on if you like

Quote :

"you hate the poor"

No, i dont hate the poor at all. I hate stupidity and bad social programs. I hate wasted resources.

If you read the thread at all, I want to help poor people. Not embarrass them and strip them of dignity by giving them ridiculous non-purpose items like food stamps. I want to encourage them to work which means EITC, not welfare.


[Edited on March 4, 2007 at 3:14 AM. Reason : a]

3/4/2007 3:11:44 AM

Quote :

"^^ P.S. When you were making her budget did you suggest the following? --- Switch to a less expensive cell phone plan --- Start packing your lunch instead of eating at Ruby Tuesdays with co-workers --- You don't have to buy every new children's DVD or shop at the Baby Gap. --- Quit smoking Those 4 options would have put her under budget easily."

1. I didn't give her a phone. I budgeted change for the pay phone.
2. She brought a packed lunch. Once a month, I provided $5 for her to go out with the girls and get water and a salad (rest for tip).
3. I had her shopping at Goodwill to get children's clothes and occasionally children's movies on VHS (she doesn't own a DVD player, and Goodwill has an entertainment section with VHS). I also budgeted for blank tapes so she can tape PBS programming (for the kids, of course) in the day while she and her children are at work/daycare (she doesn't get cable).
4. She doesn't smoke or drink.

[Edited on March 4, 2007 at 9:58 AM. Reason : sss]

3/4/2007 9:55:35 AM

If she cant afford children why have them? If I bought a ferrari should I expect taxpayers to pay for that, when I cant afford it? It would probably be cheaper.

She is in that mess from her own bad decisions, SHE should have to deal/live with it and dont use it as an excuse. I see TONS of these people. Its a cycle, welfare was never meant to support several generations. It is MEANT as temp relief to get back on your feet, however, its easier to sit than to stand.

3/4/2007 10:13:27 AM

Quote :

"If she cant afford children why have them?"

forced abortions for the poor?

3/4/2007 10:18:04 AM

responsiblity?

3/4/2007 10:22:05 AM

Quote :

"She is in that mess from her own bad decisions, SHE should have to deal/live with it and dont use it as an excuse."

She is dealing with it, fuckface. I'm posting her story as an alternative to this notion that poor people are poor because they spend their money on drugs, eat all their meals out, and buy lots of cell phones.

3/4/2007 10:31:51 AM

fuckface, cute. She isnt receiving any help? Just curious

3/4/2007 10:34:32 AM

Quote :

"responsiblity?"

and how do you define responsibility?

it doesn't sound like she is going around fucking everything. She has two kids. there are many reasons why someone could be a single parent other than she can't stop spreading her legs at bars.

3/4/2007 10:38:01 AM

^^No, and that was an issue in class. Pretty much all of us thought she should be taking advantage of government assistance, but at the time we did the budgets, she was not receving any. Her income puts her above the poverty cut-off, but I'm sure she had to qualify for something at least...I hope...

^Pretty much.

[Edited on March 4, 2007 at 10:45 AM. Reason : sss]

3/4/2007 10:44:19 AM

spk, that is the problem. THe current system encourages people to be unproductive and have poor spending habits. You are penalized by saving or buying a house, bc now you have assets. My secretary who I dont think graduated from high school has been doing her job for 35 years. When her husband got sick they couldnt get any medicaid assistance because they own a doublewide, while you have people who blow thier govt check on leasing new cars and designer shoes.

I have no problem with the lady you mentioned, she is working and taking care of herself. However, dont think that the majority of people getting aid are productive or want to be. There should be a safety net in this country not a damn hammock. When you start working and seeing your tax money come out open your eyes to where it goes. Look at a medicaid drug formulary and look at what all tax payer money goes to. There is no incentive to get off of the system, they have it the best. Everything paid for, for no cost.

3/4/2007 10:52:28 AM

yup, poverty is so much bleedin' fun. Everyone should try it.

3/4/2007 11:20:17 AM

^^Post statistics. Support your assertion that poor people enjoy being poor and "have it the best."




Other notes on the original post:

The people you see who eat out all the time or buy expensive clothes or drive fancy cars they can't afford are coping with poverty expressively. They live in abject poverty and feel there is no way out of their circumstances so they latch on to one thing to brighten their days. They may sleep on the floor while roaches crawl past them all night, but at least they can get in their new Honda or put on their new jeans to leave the house for a couple hours and be somebody else. Other people cope through violence, punching holes in the walls and fighting with the neighbors every night. Still some "cope" through depression, staying in bed all day, getting up to use the restroom only to end up sitting on the toilet for a couple hours just staring at the wall. You call these people lazy; I think they're clinically depressed.

3/4/2007 11:38:04 AM

Quote :

"There is no incentive to get off of the system, they have it the best. Everything paid for, for no cost."

Other than the fact that each person is limited to 5 years of federal welfare in their lifetime, and most state aid has work requirements attached to it.

You guys don't even know how this works.

3/4/2007 11:40:45 AM

Quote :

"If she cant afford children why have them?"

If you don't think it's reasonable to expect high school students not to have sex (and I pray you don't, or else I'm just going to have to give up), then you can't think it's reasonable to expect adults to not have sex. You further can't reasonably expect any sort of contraception to be a) 100% effective, and certainly not b) 100% available to the poor.

And lastly you cannot reasonably say (at least, not and actually think it's going to fly) that abortion would be the only responsible course of action.

Quote :

"It sounds great to give away free healthcare. It sounds even better to give away free ipods!!"

No, it doesn't. At all. The English language fails me when it comes to describing the greatness of offering something that is essential to life in comparison to the utter pointlessness that is offering something that is a mere accoutrement to it.

The rest of that post constitutes such a preposterous straw man that I won't even bother with it.

---
And now, back to page 1
---

Quote :

"They don't realize that poor people are poor because they use drugs, buy a lot of cell phones, and eat every meal out."

Now I know you're not so stupid to think that this applies to all poor people, and that it can, at most, only apply to a majority. I'll assume that's the case for a moment, even though I don't believe it.

In this case we are presented with two options:

1) Don't help the poor. The lazy, irresponsible ones get what they deserve, and the ones who are largely victims of circumstance get, well, fucked. It happens.

2) Help the poor. Some lazy, irresponsible people benefit, and the ones who are victims of circumstance get a leg up.

The fact is that you'd rather punish the bad than help the good, and I'm just not sure that's any way to run a society -- especially when it isn't a one-or-the-other choice, and we can in fact try to blend them, as we do now. But it saddens me that you equate wanting to use the carrot rather than the stick as being a "bleeding heart."

Quote :

"I mean really, why encourage it?"

Not a single plan in the welfare system today is designed to encourage poverty. Perhaps some of them do, but I see that more as impetus for reform than for axing the program altogether.

Quote :

"If someone wants to be poor then let them."

I assure you, none of these people want to be poor, except perhaps for a handful of mentally unbalanced folks who represent a negligible number. Now, maybe some of them want to be lazy, and maybe some of them want to be supported by the state. But you didn't say that, of course. You said they wanted to be poor, which is, for lack of a better term, the stupidest goddamn thing I have ever heard.

Quote :

"If you'd like to give them money fine, but don't insist that others should too."

This is as close as you came in the whole thread to making a defensible argument. It's a pity that you aborted it.

Quote :

"Is it just some pyscho-religious thing or what? "

I'm not sure I'd characterize "following the most simple and basic tenets of your religion" as a "psycho-religious thing," but I guess to each his own there.

Quote :

" Solution: Move. People have been moving since the beginning of the world."

This is just inane. A person who doesn't have money for basic ammenities at home isn't going to have money for basic ammenities somewhere else plus the money to get there.

I know, I know, you can point to all sorts of little anecdotes about people who moved through great hardship, blah, blah, blah. You'll leave out such big chunks of the story (as well as the simple fact that there are some things not everybody can do, and for reasons other than laziness) that they will be less than pointless.

Quote :

" Yes, thats why winners compensate losers with programs like job training."

1) We don't do this enough, and
2) Job training doesn't matter when there aren't any jobs nearby. The poor guy in the mill town who lost his job when the mill closed down isn't likely to find other work in the area and, like it or not, probably can't move, either.

Quote :

"They just aren't the type of people who care if they have luxury cars, expensive bottles of chardonnay, family vacations, or dentist appointments."

No one is saying we should give them any of these things, save maybe the dentist appointment.

Quote :

"i just want people to understand that by "helping" poor people you are responsible for hurting everyone instead. "

Lord knows, the fact that our standard of living has gone up in my lifetime hurts me every morning when I wake up.

Quote :

"i know its a college message board and i know its a technical college at that"

A technical college? Are you fucking serious?

Quote :

"1. She should be getting child support. If she isn't then she needs to get on that deadbeat's ass to pay up."

Oh yes, somewhere between her jobs and her child-raising she'll go all PI and track down the baby daddy. That's a reasonable expectation.

3/4/2007 12:09:28 PM

Quote :

"Oh yes, somewhere between her jobs and her child-raising she'll go all PI and track down the baby daddy. That's a reasonable expectation."

As much money as she'd be getting extra each month I feel sure she can find a little spare time to take care of this. It is a very reasonable expectation.

Quote :

"lastly you cannot reasonably say (at least, not and actually think it's going to fly) that abortion would be the only responsible course of action."

Why can't you say it?

Back to eyedrb's example. If you had a Ferrari you could not afford you would get rid of it. If you were pregnant with a baby you could not afford....

Quote :

"it doesn't sound like she is going around fucking everything. She has two kids."

So, it is ok to have two kids you can not afford? What about three, four, five? Where do you draw the line?

[Edited on March 4, 2007 at 12:22 PM. Reason : ]

3/4/2007 12:20:45 PM

there are a lot of reasons why she wouldn't be getting money from the baby daddy besides he is a deadbeat.

and since when is having kids equatable to driving a ferrari?

3/4/2007 12:28:03 PM

The point was that you don't expect tax payers to pick up the tab for your brand new car.

3/4/2007 12:31:02 PM

a car is not a humanfuckingbeing

3/4/2007 12:32:07 PM

Why should I have to pick up the tab for a human being that I didn't create?

3/4/2007 12:33:42 PM

Because that human being will cost you even more down the line if you don't give a little upfront

3/4/2007 12:41:33 PM

^DING DING DING

Compassionless assholes with any intelligence can see that.

The dumb ones make threads like this.

[Edited on March 4, 2007 at 12:48 PM. Reason : ]

3/4/2007 12:48:14 PM

Quote :

"Because that human being will cost you even more down the line if you don't give a little upfront"

How will that human being cost me even more down the line?

3/4/2007 1:16:43 PM

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/SavingandDebt/LearnToBudget/LivingPoorAndLovingIt%20.aspx?GT1=9219&wa=wsignin1.0

3/4/2007 1:23:52 PM

They have some good articles on that site. I read it frequently.

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/SavingandDebt/LearnToBudget/SurvivingAndThrivingOn12000AYear.aspx

3/4/2007 1:38:04 PM

Quote :

"How will that human being cost me even more down the line?"

If we throw kids to the wolves they'll inevitably turn to crime, which hurts society. Then you'll go to jail, which hurts our wallets.

Somewhere in the mix they'll have kids, and the cycle will continue.

3/4/2007 2:13:56 PM

Proper use of birth control and abortion would prevent all that from occuring.

3/4/2007 2:14:59 PM

Let's blame poor people for being predominantly religious.

POOR PEOPLE CAN'T AFFORD TO BELIEVE IN GOD!

3/4/2007 2:30:47 PM

In that case, why should I help them out? That's god's responsibility.

3/4/2007 2:59:00 PM

I guess the moral of the story is that the government should take extra money from everyone in order to help people in poverty. It's the American way, right?

Right?

3/4/2007 3:37:47 PM

3/4/2007 3:52:27 PM

Quote :

"In a sociology class I took over at Wake Tech, I had to make a monthly operating budget for a full-time secretary/admin at the college who waited tables on the weekends and was also a single mother of two children (ages 2 & 6)...I personally had the total budget at $2300/month. The lowest in the class was $1900/month. What she actually took home each month? $1523. And she doesn't even qualify as living in poverty. You should try making a budget for a single mother of two young children. Add it up, and see for yourself. It's really easy for you to sit back and talk shit about their spending habits, but you're still wrong."

You know, it may not be easy, but you can live pretty decently on $1523 / month assuming that is her real after tax income. Lets do some numbers:

Let's say $600 / month in rent. This assumes no other people bringing in money for the apartment.

$300 / month food budget. In my apartment, this is enough to feed two adults comfortably and still have leftovers for lunches.

$120 / month for gas

$100 / month for electricity (on the high end)

$100 / month for insurance on a car

$50 / month for misc needs

$3 / month for BJs membership

Now, we've taken care of basic needs for her. If we would like we can also add:

$40 / month basic regional cell plan

$40 / month high speed internet

Which leaves $170 / month to spend elsewhere or save as needed.

Is it the greatest life? No, certainly not. But it's definitely livable and certainly possible to work out of.

[Edited on March 4, 2007 at 4:07 PM. Reason : forgot membership]

3/4/2007 4:05:32 PM

Quote :

"I assure you, none of these people want to be poor, except perhaps for a handful of mentally unbalanced folks who represent a negligible number. Now, maybe some of them want to be lazy, and maybe some of them want to be supported by the state. But you didn't say that, of course. You said they wanted to be poor, which is, for lack of a better term, the stupidest goddamn thing I have ever heard."

I don't think anyone "wants" to be poor, however I think that there are plenty of people that are poor and don't want to be poor... but they aren't willing to do what it takes to be successful

some people just don't want to do shit, they get by and usually see another day, so they're content with it(especially when being propped up by people that do want to better themselves)

3/4/2007 4:08:49 PM

^^
Health insurance?
Transportation?
Clothing?
Furniture?
All the misc crap that comes with having a kid?

This will all be covered with $50+170/month?


Of course it's possible. The question is-- is this possible scenario conducive to properly raising children?

3/4/2007 4:30:17 PM

Quote :

"Health insurance? Transportation? Clothing? Furniture?"

I don't have any of these as monthly expenses.

3/4/2007 5:07:40 PM

Birth control is available and for FREE. While I dont think its realistic to expect people to not have sex, I also dont feel its fair to have other people PAY for your mistake.

The example of the car was meant to point out that it would be a financial mistake as well, nobody elses fault, so why wont tax payers fund my mistake? I wasnt trying to argue abortion. However, if you are on the system there does need to be some measure to prevent further pregancys..in my opinion.

For those that feel we need to provide more and thier isnt a entitlement mindset, I would invite you to spend 4 years working a memphis clinic. Its a real eye opener. I used to have similar views as many on here, but once you leave the shelter of school and actually see things, your opinions will likely change. I dont think you would find a majority of people who wouldnt agree that people in this country should have access to basic needs, food, shelter, and basic healthcare. But when you have people burning thier public housing to simply get a new one. Or medicaid paying for hair pills, acne meds, sleeping pill, and fertility pills. I think you have gone beyond the basic needs. Its frustrating to pay your premiums, deductibles, and your prescription copays... and they get it for free..or a dollar. Then you see the amount coming out of your check every pay period. It just gets frustrating.

Newt talked once about opening up orphanages again to get these kids out of shit homes and break the poverty cycle. He was almost mobbed for doing it. Throwing more money at it isnt the answer. Its time to try something else.

3/4/2007 5:44:05 PM

Quote :

"Of course it's possible. The question is-- is this possible scenario conducive to properly raising children?"

This makes my eyes bleed. Maybe you should donate enough money to her family to build a roller coaster. Then they will be the coolest kids on the block!!


A lot of you people need to grow up and re-think your positions. Favoring senseless violence and stunted economic growth is really the wrong side of the issue to stand on.

Quote :

" I don't think anyone "wants" to be poor, however I think that there are plenty of people that are poor and don't want to be poor... but they aren't willing to do what it takes to be successful some people just don't want to do shit, they get by and usually see another day, so they're content with it(especially when being propped up by people that do want to better themselves)"

This sums up the issue quite nicely. Many poor people are unwilling to work 40 hours a week. The majority of them are unwilling to work 60 hours per week. Even more of them are unwilling to give up cell phone plans, meals at McDonalds, and Nike apparel.

If you don't make enough money to support yourself then either get another job or cut your expenses. It's very easy to do. You guys live in a mythical world where video games, cell phones, and triple cheeseburgers are "necessities".

And GrumpyGOP you have a very misleading screename for such a left-wing posterchild.


A lot of you guys are downright Un-American. You should move to CA, NY, or France if you're going to spew all this hippy-bullshit.



I'm not a Republican because I like gay people fine, think Religion is pretty creepy, and I'm even cool with women having some civil liberties.

At least with Republicans we don't know if they are right or wrong. Maybe being gay is a sin, maybe religion isn't some mind controlling, moneymaking scam, and maybe women really are equals.

But really I dont think anyone truly believes in liberal agendas. The politicians fake it because they see it as a chance to sell out for power... The celebrities champion it because they feel guilty for being paid to be beautiful... Even the people that are really helped by liberal agendas (minorities and white trash) don't vote for it. Poor people are too lazy to get off their couch at 2 PM to even go vote.

There's nothing wrong with being lazy. I'm lazy. I don't ask to be rewarded for it though...

[Edited on March 4, 2007 at 6:48 PM. Reason : a]

3/4/2007 6:37:24 PM

It's seems like you're the one who has a problem with the way America's run.

If you don't like our system of social welfare, YOU CAN GIIIIIIIiT OUT!

3/4/2007 6:49:59 PM

Quote :

"I'm not a Republican because I like gay people fine, think Religion is pretty creepy, and I'm even cool with women having some civil liberties."

Fuck you.

[Edited on March 4, 2007 at 7:40 PM. Reason : Do you even know what a civil liberty is?]

3/4/2007 7:38:46 PM

Quote :

"It would be a much better country if women did not vote. That is simply a fact. In fact, in every presidential election since 1950 - except Goldwater in '64 - the Republican would have won, if only the men had voted."

--Ann Coulter

3/4/2007 7:51:29 PM