how about when someone says you have to use a "union firm"

i could care less if you can get the work done faster, cheaper and better elsewhere...you MUST use union labor

free enterprise FTL

3/23/2007 10:59:46 AM

Quote :

"^ Oh come on man. There is a lot more involved in the cost-benefit of outsourcing than just union versus non-union labor. Apples to Oranges."

Hey, complain to LoanShark. He's saying that the reason all the labor is leaving up north is cause of unions. Well then why are they leaving from non-unionized North Carolina for Mexico and India? It has nothing to do with collective bargaining, it has everything to do with companies jacking up their profits for Wall Street by wanting us to accept making one dollar an hour or we're unemployed. Unions are a problem, but they're a side effect at best. And how is that good for our country if everyone here in 50 years save Wall Street, CEOs, and boards of directors are making one dollar an hour?

3/23/2007 11:11:03 AM

Quote :

"He's saying that the reason all the labor is leaving up north is cause of unions. Well then why are they leaving from non-unionized North Carolina for Mexico and India?"

the non-union labor is leaving up north because union labor has their jobs...they are guaranteed work...the businesses affected by this are smaller businesses...construction companies come to mind...the jobs in North Carolina that go to Mexico and India are jobs like tech support for huge corporations...not small businesses

talk about apples and oranges

3/23/2007 11:14:38 AM

^^Because without unions, everyone below upper-management would be making unlivable wages.

Except that pesky little fact that 80%+ of the workforce is non-union, and I don't see too many starving in the streets.

[Edited on March 23, 2007 at 11:17 AM. Reason : carrots]

3/23/2007 11:15:55 AM

DING DING DING DING DING

3/23/2007 11:17:14 AM

^^^^It's not good if we have to drop to super-low wages, but it's not that simple. Firms leave point A to go to point B because the overall cost is lower, and profitability can be increased. The exact same concept causes both moves, specific factors making that operating cost lower aren't the same.

It has everything to do with collective bargaining, and it has everything to do with lower standards of living making lower wages possible in other countries. (Not to mention the government intervention in foreign markets like China making their cost of production artificially low)

A free-market dealing in an unrestricted manner with unfree-markets may cause those markets to become more free overtime, but it seems dangerous that we as a nation are betting so much of our GDP on the sustainability of unfree-markets.

3/23/2007 11:18:36 AM

Quote :

"^^Because without unions, everyone below upper-management would be making unlivable wages. Except that pesky little fact that 80%+ of the workforce is non-union, and I don't see too many starving in the streets."

Everyone is not getting what I am saying. What kind of wage do any of you expect to make in 20 years? On current course, none of us will hardly approach what our parents made simply due to the current wage arbitrage going on where all companies are moving operations overseas if they don't reach a certain profit limit. My job can be done by an Indian engineer for the equivalent of one dollar per hour. That's a very frightening prospect for every American that does not work in a job that requires in-person service. Unions have nothing to deal with that simple point. So the entire argument of blaming unions for jobs going overseas is laughable, cause they'll go overseas anyway.

3/23/2007 12:45:49 PM

i'm not blaming unions for jobs going overseas

i'm blaming them for running other local businesses out of business and forcing employees to relocate and get jobs in predominantly non-union states

Quote :

"On current course, none of us will hardly approach what our parents made simply due to the current wage arbitrage going on where all companies are moving operations overseas if they don't reach a certain profit limit"

not everyone works for some Fortune 500 company where profits and international changes dictate everything

Most people work in small to medium sized businesses

3/23/2007 12:47:53 PM

Quote :

"Hey, complain to LoanShark. He's saying that the reason all the labor is leaving up north is cause of unions. Well then why are they leaving from non-unionized North Carolina for Mexico and India?"

Simple, they aren't. Job creation is quite brisk here in North Carolina and other booming Southern States while at the same time wages are increasing steadily.

So, to answer your question, it is not economically defensible to say Mexico is stealing jobs from any American because of the flexible rates of foreign exchange and the non-porous labor barrier.

To be specific, Nevada is stealing workers from Detroit, not just jobs. The population has been cut in half; those people went somewhere, and it wasn't Mexico. Many families moved to take jobs in Kentucky or other manufacturing centers.

If you need me to go into it I will, but economically speaking, the number of jobs in a country/state is roughly dictated by the number of workers seeking employment (baring governmental, social, or psychological interference, see Europe, recessions, asymmetric information, etc). Due to this reality the only real way to "steal jobs" is to steal workers. And I don't need to tell you, in that respect the U.S. is the greatest job thief in the history of the world: as Indians, Chinese, and Mexicans immigrate.

3/24/2007 10:06:49 PM