that too...hey whatevers clever

just remember...nobody likes a whiner

3/27/2007 3:20:48 PM

and if all else fails... resort to facism

Quote :

" From : Scuba Steve To : Oeuvre Received : Tuesday March 27, 2007 at 3:17 PM Subject : Hey Dumbass You got a fucking problem, internet tough guy?"

3/27/2007 3:22:25 PM

I think its pretty safe to say Scuba Steve doesn't like the United States of America

I wouldn't want to stay in a place that I didn't like

3/27/2007 3:23:14 PM

I'd be lying if I said that I agreed with the current direction of our country. But you, Scuba Steve, seem to have a very large disconnect between how you think the government should function and how it actually should function. And by actually should function, I mean how it's outlined in the Constitution.

You've blamed the Republicans for the Electoral College.

You seem to be completely unaware of the House of Representatives, or bicameralism in general.

You also seem to be unaware of checks and balances and the delineation of powers and responsibilities set forth in the Constitution.

I can understand having differing views on how a government should be structured and run, but I'm not sure that you understand how the US government is set up. You're coming across like one of those angst-ridden, bitter-at-the-world guys who picks something to blame all his woes on, even if he doesn't really understand that 'something' and how it fits into the world.

3/27/2007 3:23:50 PM

Quote :

"that too...hey whatevers clever"

hey, atleast you're not in denial.....that's a start.

3/27/2007 3:24:25 PM

I don't think I would whine about it if I could change the situation though... moving isn't all that difficult... but it might be pretty hard finding a job over in europe with rampant unemployment and high tax rates.


Farewell buddy.

3/27/2007 3:24:27 PM

Hopefully if he does move to Europe, he can still get on TWW and post and tell us how much better it is over there since all their govt officials are honest and trustworthy

^^no but i do think difficult times often call for difficult measures...i dont want all my speech run through machines to search for words about illegal activities or anything...but i also could give 2 shits if old uncle sam wants to listen to my girlfriend telling me about her day at work over the phone

plus you should learn to keep phone conversations about taboo topics on the downlow...before big brother was listening, it was big mother or father picking up the phone in the other room...learn from shit like that dog!

[Edited on March 27, 2007 at 3:28 PM. Reason : .]

3/27/2007 3:26:40 PM

I know right... and if they aren't he can internet attack them like he is doing to me

Quote :

" From : Scuba Steve To : Oeuvre Received : Tuesday March 27, 2007 at 3:26 PM Subject : Re: Hey Dumbass hey, if you want to call someone a retard, say it to my face pussy"

[Edited on March 27, 2007 at 3:28 PM. Reason : .]

3/27/2007 3:28:03 PM

Hopefully this thread will stay off-topic indefinitely and never get to any substantive debate about checks and balances within our current government.

3/27/2007 3:28:22 PM

Most of you have put words in my mouth. I didn't say the Republicans invented the two houses of congress. And I assure you I know much, much more about politics than you do.

[Edited on March 27, 2007 at 3:29 PM. Reason : .]

3/27/2007 3:28:50 PM

well that settles it.


Thanks for clearing that up, scuba. You obviously did not display your prowess di politico here... but since you say you won

/thread

3/27/2007 3:29:34 PM

Bush is President and Republican
Congress is Democrat majority

thats enough checks and balances...oh wait, thats just a formula to get nothing done

course why are Legis, Exec or Jud going to check and balance each other when they care more about money and their party and the people who support their party that pay them money

cash rules

Quote :

"And I assure you I know much, much more about politics than you do."

well thank god you assured us...for a minute i didnt believe you on the grounds of completely unsubstantiated claims

[Edited on March 27, 2007 at 3:31 PM. Reason : .]

3/27/2007 3:30:20 PM

eh you are all trolls anyway

must be because I hate the United States

3/27/2007 3:30:36 PM

could be

3/27/2007 3:31:22 PM

if we're all trolls then it looks like we're the majority

also most of america is trolls

so gtfo if you dont like it

3/27/2007 3:31:32 PM

Quote :

"And I assure you I know much, much more about politics than you do."

must've confused you with the other Scuba Steve

sry

3/27/2007 3:39:26 PM

The Democrats in Congress were bribed with massive amounts of pork to support the cut-and-run bill.

Quote :

"TODAY THE House of Representatives is due to vote on a bill that would grant $25 million to spinach farmers in California. The legislation would also appropriate $75 million for peanut storage in Georgia and $15 million to protect Louisiana rice fields from saltwater. More substantially, there is $120 million for shrimp and menhaden fishermen, $250 million for milk subsidies, $500 million for wildfire suppression and $1.3 billion to build levees in New Orleans. Altogether the House Democratic leadership has come up with more than $20 billion in new spending, much of it wasteful subsidies to agriculture or pork barrel projects aimed at individual members of Congress. At the tail of all of this logrolling and political bribery lies this stinger: Representatives who support the bill -- for whatever reason -- will be voting to require that all U.S. combat troops leave Iraq by August 2008, regardless of what happens during the next 17 months or whether U.S. commanders believe a pullout at that moment protects or endangers U.S. national security, not to mention the thousands of American trainers and Special Forces troops who would remain behind."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/22/AR2007032201883.html

[Edited on March 27, 2007 at 4:13 PM. Reason : .]

3/27/2007 4:13:21 PM

And where are there bribes taking place? Oh that's right. It's more fun to make outragious claims to get attention. Carry on.

Quote :

"$500 million for wildfire suppression"

This one has be curious and concerned though.

3/27/2007 4:30:50 PM

A couple of bucks for the VA would be nice

3/27/2007 4:34:52 PM

it's in there. of course it's not mentioned in that editorial

3/27/2007 4:40:09 PM

How much?

3/27/2007 4:40:53 PM

3.5 billion over bush's request according to a few sources. i can't find a good one now because the original press release is about 2 weeks old now:

http://murray.senate.gov/news.cfm?id=270673

[Edited on March 27, 2007 at 4:50 PM. Reason : .]

3/27/2007 4:49:51 PM

Quote :

"If it wasn't for the electoral college and the US Senate, this country would be overwhelmingly Democratic. The only reasons Republicans are even relevant in this country's political discourse is that they have manipulated this nations laws to favor them. "

L O FREAKIN L



you've got to be drunk

you really think that???

if it wasn't for the democrats buying votes with stolen money every election since FDR there wouldn't be a democrat politician alive

3/27/2007 4:53:38 PM

^^ That's good.

^ I like the implication that the electoral college is a colossal evil thought up by Republicans.

3/27/2007 4:57:25 PM

well, thats what public education taught me

3/27/2007 4:58:32 PM

so we are just ignoring the fact that Bush only got elected because of vote fraud? Or does that not count because no one proved it, in which case I suggest you change your line about Democrats.

Interesting sidenote, most of the attorneys fired recently by Gonzales were fired because they didnt pursue charges of vote fraud against Democrats. Why did the Republican attorneys not do so? Because they didnt have enough evidence to even warrant an investigation.

edit- and yes, it has been proved, but this is one of those cases where ideaology > facts

[Edited on March 27, 2007 at 9:12 PM. Reason : e]

3/27/2007 9:12:19 PM

Checks and balances? Oh, that part of our government that ceases to exist when the branches all bleed the same hue?

I'm glad to see the executive branch being held accountable for a change.

3/27/2007 9:51:35 PM

Quote :

"so we are just ignoring the fact that Bush only got elected because of vote fraud?"

i know you mentioned that "yes, it has been proved" but I'm not aware of any proof

Do you have a link or something?

One part of me says "stfu already, the election has BEEN over" but another part of me says "it wouldnt surprise me but do you have proof"

Like I said it wouldn't surprise me, but I'm just wondering if that statement is legit or if its just 6-year old hindsight anger

3/27/2007 10:02:35 PM

3/27/2007 10:08:39 PM

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334/was_the_2004_election_stolen
Written by RFK Jr, so its less than unbiased.
http://www.openvotingconsortium.org/files/Conyersreport.pdf
Again, a slightly biased account. This is a congressional report commissioned by John Conyers. Ultimately (from articles about it, I havent actually read it) it sounds like this is a lot of circumstanial evidence. But, does anyone really expect us to find emails from Blackwell saying, "I stole the election for Bush!" ?

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20010205/palast
A good overview of the intentional disenfranchisement of something close to 100,000 voters in Florida in 2000. Numbers indicate the group was overwhelmingly full of Democrats.

The facts have been pretty clearly laid out, but, its 2007, and there is no use saying shit like, "Reelect Gore" or anything else. Its done. But no, its not immature anger. Frankly, in both cases Democrats should have won by so many votes that fraud wouldnt have been an issue. Instead Gore and Kerry ran largely incompetent campaigns.

3/27/2007 10:20:32 PM

Without reading throughout all three links you posted, let me ask you this

Is one of the main reasons you think the '00 election was rigged because of your own personal disagreements with the electoral college, or do you think Florida specifically was sabotaged (and possibly Ohio in '04)?

3/27/2007 10:29:35 PM

specific situation. i think the electoral system is great.

[Edited on March 27, 2007 at 10:48 PM. Reason : electoral college]

3/27/2007 10:48:07 PM

We could start by requiring some sort of voter id. It seems reasonable to ask people to prove they are citizens before they can vote. Of course I also have crazy ideas like terrorists shouldn't be granted the same rights as uniformed soldiers of foreign armies so what do I know anyway, lets just make it up as we go along, PC for the win.

3/27/2007 11:36:31 PM

^interesting message_topic.aspx?topic=443341

3/27/2007 11:37:52 PM

Quote :

"We could start by requiring some sort of voter id. It seems reasonable to ask people to prove they are citizens before they can vote. Of course I also have crazy ideas like terrorists shouldn't be granted the same rights as uniformed soldiers of foreign armies so what do I know anyway, lets just make it up as we go along, PC for the win."

Why is it more okay to torture a terrorist than an enemy combatant?

Drawing a distinction, to me, seems pretty asinine and is a way for people to deny that they are sadistic animals (it's in the same vein as people who say abortion isn't a form of murder).

3/27/2007 11:44:49 PM

who mentioned torture?

3/27/2007 11:47:46 PM

There's no other issue recently where the distinction between an enemy soldier and a terrorist is significant. If that's not what he was talking about, then I take my question back.

3/27/2007 11:48:59 PM

Those damn money-stealing democrats and their pork-barrel projects!!

3/27/2007 11:53:57 PM

On the original topic...

I think this makes perfect sense. The President doesn't send us to war. He asks Congress for permission to do so. Congress' job is simply to be "sounding board", if you will, for the public voice.

Now, here we clearly have a case where a majority, or at the very least, a near-majority, of Americans hold the view that we have fulfilled our responsibilities overseas and need to break this thing off. Whether that is ACTUALLY the case is probably better left to military experts, but the fact still remains that it is the American people who elect the officials and it is their job to uphold the sentiment of the people.

By supporting this ultimatum, as far as I'm concerned, they're just doing exactly what they should be doing - their job.

The president will obviously try to veto this, but until I see top brass bringing the "WTF is wrong with you people?" to the table I think we have no choice but to write this one off as ok and legit. The President is "CiC", but that does not automatically make him the ultimate and final authority.

[Edited on March 28, 2007 at 12:11 AM. Reason : .]

3/28/2007 12:11:05 AM

what part of "CinC" doesn't make him the ultimate authority on military actions?

just seems sheisty to me to piss on one of the fundamental principles of our founding documents for the sake of "the public." The public has been well served by actually following the Constitution in the past. So why should we depart from that now? If Congress wants to put a stop to this war, then do it the legal way: with the purse strings.

3/28/2007 12:23:46 AM

^Simply because in this case, that would be THE worst way to do it. The only ones who would get fucked are the folks out there with their asses on the line depending on that $$.

3/28/2007 12:38:59 AM

so, then it's OK to piss on the Constitution, then?

3/28/2007 12:48:44 AM

^^ The Democrats in Congress should have and could have done a straight up or down vote on whether to fund the war in Iraq. After all, Congress speaks most loudly with its purse strings. But instead, the Democrats loaded the bill up with pork--it's typical of them really.

[Edited on March 28, 2007 at 12:53 AM. Reason : .]

3/28/2007 12:53:05 AM

btw, I think this is what Scuba Steve meant by "the country is overwhelmingly democratic.

3/28/2007 7:40:58 AM

all that map proves is that kerry won mostly urban areas.

it's also misleading because it says 'population of counties won' which vastly differed from the number of votes received across the nation.

you sir, are what we call a spin machine.

3/28/2007 7:47:13 AM

OK, how about this stat?


Republican Bush
62,040,606 51% 286

Democratic Kerry
59,028,109 48% 252

Independent Nader
411,304 1% 0






How is that any more telling of the "overwhelming democratic status" of our country?

3/28/2007 7:58:44 AM

I'm not arguing either way, but I could be an ass and show you the vote results of the 2000 elections.

3/28/2007 8:13:57 AM

That wouldn't be being an ass. I think it is pretty well known by now that Bush did not win the popular vote in 2000.

3/28/2007 8:17:43 AM

Scuba Steve referenced an "overwhelming democratic supermajority" in America that would exist if it weren't for the senate and electoral college.

[Edited on March 28, 2007 at 8:38 AM. Reason : .]

3/28/2007 8:38:02 AM

Interesting snippet from Bloomberg.com today -

Quote :

" A majority of Americans say they support legislation setting a deadline for withdrawing U.S. forces from Iraq by next year, according to a Pew Research Center poll. Fifty-nine percent of those surveyed said they want their congressional representative to vote for a bill that calls for a withdrawal by August 2008. Thirty-three percent opposed such legislation. The poll of 1,503 people was conducted March 21-25. "

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aYDbc7PhxQxc&refer=home

I had no idea that this thing was supported by such a great majority. Just a little insight into the Congressmen "doing their job" argument.

And as for "pissing on the constitution", I'm pretty sure the Constitution dosn't say anywhere that "Congress can only try to pass resolutions and laws if the President is down with it". I think this is just a prime example of bringing checks and balances into play(that and Congress telling the President to STFU).

3/28/2007 9:28:35 AM