Quote :

"And not a damn one of you will do it. You don't have the money to put into the fund and if it's not a bill, you won't pull $x out of each paycheck to add it to the your fund or start a new one."

Your mentality is to take advantage of the fact that the majority of people don't have the fiscal discipline to make the best decisions for themselves rather than to try to correct the behavior. This is why people like me view insurance salespeople as slimy... you're just taking advantage of a basic economic principle - imperfect information.

5/2/2007 3:03:39 PM

What I *bank* on is that I don't know the future. I've been through terminal diseases, sudden deaths, expected natural deaths, etc. I've seen what happens when people die from a car accident. I've seen what happens when people beat cancer and then catch pnemonia. How do you know how you're going to die? And you're right, cancer can run into the millions. So does that mean you say "screw it" just because you won't have enough?

And my parents have done very well in setting each other and the rest of us up after they pass. They have a very nice "nest egg" that is off limits in addition to several very large insurance policies (WL no less). However, most people aren't as lucky as we are nor as lucky as you apparently are.

And fuck a "finance" anything. Is your financial advisor going to be there at your death to hand over a check to your wife/kids? Are they going to make sure they do the best for you or the best for your family? Or perhaps just the best for them? And yeah, I know and have known several financial advisors. Every damn one of them will admit that they know little about life insurance other than what it costs and what's been said for the last 30 years. None of them sell insurance and so none of them are educated about insurance. When I meet a financial advisor with their insurance license, that's when I'll consider listening to anything they have to say.

BobbyDigital, that's fantastic that you and your wife live below your means. Do you think that is common? Do you think that you will be able to continue to live below your means when you start a family? How about when you send your kids to college? Retirement? Get my point? Things change. You're doing great now but will that be enough in the future? Nobody knows. Hell, between my sister and I, college expenses went up 20%. What will it be like for my kids? My sister and bro-in-law just started getting the bills for my nephew's birth.... So far, they're over $100k and they're still coming in. They used to live off of 40% of their income and invest the rest of it. Not anymore. Now they're in debt hugely because of her abnormal pregnancy. So, after they get these debts paid off they have 2 college educations to look forward to. If they're lucky, they'll have enough time to save up completely for both. Then they'll be in their 50s. Not a lot of time left for starting a new nest egg. And that's all if they're lucky and have no huge expenses over the next 10-18 years. So, I guess they're just failures to all of you? Or is it just that you all know that things like that won't happen to you? Plans are all great. However, no plan is going to be accurate 100%. That's why I have whole life. That's why I recommended whole life. I'm divorced now with no children. I have roommates and live WELL under my means. I'm continuing my investments. I have bank accounts that I don't touch. I'm not dumb enough to think that's going to make a bit of difference in the end. Yeah, it'll be nice to have. Hopefully I won't even need it all. I'm sure as hell not going to bank on it being enough should anything happen to me or my (future) wife and family. When I'm 50, I'll have life insurance. When I'm 60, I'll have life insurance. When I die, I will have life insurance. If it's a natural death then my family will have a little more extra money. If it's not, then they'll have some help paying the bills that I left behind that my nest egg may or may not have taken care of.

5/2/2007 3:06:06 PM

Quote :

"Your mentality is to take advantage of the fact that the majority of people don't have the fiscal discipline to make the best decisions for themselves rather than to try to correct the behavior. This is why people like me view insurance salespeople as slimy... you're just taking advantage of a basic economic principle - imperfect information. "

I'm glad you know so much about me. As I said before, I no longer sell insurance. When I did, I usually made MORE off TERM. And how in the hell am I going to correct their behavior? Or why even? You pay your financial advisor and he makes money off your investments (I'm assuming at least since that's what I'm familiar with). Nobody paid me a damn thing other than commission. I'm not going to sit there and hold your hand every month to make you put money in an account. I told people that investing their money was a much better way to do it and the majority of my clients were smart enough to know that they wouldn't always do it.

5/2/2007 3:11:02 PM

Quote :

"What I *bank* on is that I don't know the future."

I can certainly see why you are an EX insurance salesman. Are you trying to scare people into buying whole life insurance? In your first paragraph you make a great case as to why one should own insurance. Unfortunately, you have yet to show while whole life is better than term life in those scenarios. If I suddenly die and have term insurance then I will be covered. Once I get a large nest egg, I won't need whole life insurance. I've live off my 401k and IRA. I'll get health/dissability insurance. Please explain why the hell do I need whole life?

5/2/2007 3:17:21 PM

Your final paragraph was directed towards Bobby, but I'll respond anyway.

"Do you think that is common?"

No, it isn't common. Are you suggesting people buy whole life as a way to force them to save for retirement?

"Do you think that you will be able to continue to live below your means when you start a family?"

I won't start a family until I can do so and still live at or below my means.

"How about when you send your kids to college?"

They can take out low % loans.

"Retirement"

Why the hell is this last in your list? I've been saving for that since I was 22 and plan to do so even after kids. On a sidenote you shouldn't delay saving for retirement in order to fund your kids college education.

How would having whole life have helped your sister?

Furthermore, you keep talking about your family having to pay off all these debts after you die. Unless you are married at the time, no one else is responsible for these debts when you die.

5/2/2007 3:24:29 PM

Quote :

"you have yet to show while whole life is better than term life in those scenarios."

exactly. My wife is covered in the event I get in a fatal car accident on my way home from work today.

But i sure as shit am not wasting money on a whole life plan that will generate higher gains in an index fund. Nor would I advise anyone else to. Obviously there are enough suckers who will keep your ex-colleagues solvent.

5/2/2007 3:30:51 PM

Those are the same people that plan to retire on lottery winnings.

5/2/2007 3:34:14 PM

Quote :

"Every damn one of them will admit that they know little about life insurance other than what it costs and what's been said for the last 30 years. None of them sell insurance and so none of them are educated about insurance. When I meet a financial advisor with their insurance license, that's when I'll consider listening to anything they have to say."

I previously mentioned that my sister-in-law is our financial planner. She also has a license to sell insurance and knows wtf she is talking about. Otherwise we probably wouldn't have purchased insurance when we did and in the manner we did.

I think your advice is on the right track though...when I talk to someone from TWW who has an insurance license (or is a CFP), then I'll consider listening to what they have to say.

5/2/2007 3:44:17 PM

people should only consider using a financial planner with a CFP that will help them plan all areas of finance for the long term. most fee based CFPs will be more than competent in planning for retirement, making sound investments based on goals/lifestyle, and protecting their assets/future w/ insurance. if investors fail to find a good advisor, thats their problem.

and i got my insurance license last summer...the education/test were on par with the difficulty of BUS 225 (not very hard).

5/2/2007 5:44:06 PM

Quote :

"After all, you have all the money in your nest egg, right? Wait, you didn't spend that money when your wife developed cancer 5 years ago did you?"

Um, ever heard of health insurance????

Quote :

" After all, you didn't have any life insurance on her because it's completely unneccessary since she didn't work. So I guess the state pays it all, right? Or the hospital? "

The funny thing is you are attempting to be sarcastic here but what you are saying is partially correct. Yes the state will pay for a lot of it. Medicaid/Medicare. Ever heard of them?

And yes the hospitals often pay for a lot of it. Ever heard of uncollectible debt?

Quote :

" Wait, I don't understand, where's that money coming from again smartass? Most people don't have a "nest egg" when they die. Most people leave bills behind, not money. The "nest egg" is usually long gone and wasn't that big to start with."

Well perhaps if they'd been investing the money to start with instead of wasting it on life insurance plans designed to make salesman/companies rich then their nest egg would be sufficient.


You didn't just drink the kool-aid, you drowned in it. You've still got a seller's mentality and you're not even in the business...

And this is why I didn't even respond to "sales" job offers. Working for commission turns people into pyschos.

5/2/2007 5:57:06 PM

Quote :

"Term: for a set term (you can get 1 year to 20 year although 1 year is by far the most common). MUCH cheaper BUT you're buying a one year insurance policy. Guess what happens next year! You just got older! Congratulations, your insurance premiums just went up! You'll get the same birthday present EVERY time you renew your policy. Get laid off, have a kid, buy a house, etc? Can't afford to pay your premium? Congratulations, you just lost EVERYTHING you ever paid into it and now you have no insurance. Damn, you guys are right! That definitely sounds like the way to go."

1. you shouldn't need insurance forever .
2. SGLI is subsidized and a no-brainer if you need insurance. when you get out, you have vgli and usaa.
3. my dad is in the life insurance biz. 15 years, agency manager, VERY successful. he will tell you that it's a sucky investment. you buy it for emotional reasons.

the mindset of a whole life purchaser is way different from an investor like me who plays to win, rather than to not lose.

5/2/2007 6:55:25 PM

Jim, I'm serious:

ditch your financial advisor, like, yesterday. PM me in a week or so... when I get home fRom SERE at the middle of the month , I will give you some advice, since I know both money and the military .

or, call USAA. free financial advice.

don't buy any whole life.

5/2/2007 7:08:26 PM

Thanks Josh. How is the Marines treating you?

5/2/2007 7:56:09 PM

Quote :

"You didn't just drink the kool-aid, you drowned in it. "

I wonder if that's covered by his whole life polciy

5/2/2007 8:02:48 PM

Fuck it, I give up. You guys go ahead an believe what you want to. You have your insurance license? Great. And if you found it to be as difficult as Bus 225 then you apparently didn't understand a bunch of it. The test is bullshit. Let me ask you something. When is the last time that a class truly prepared you for the real world? Yeah, you get the numbers, terms, and shit but you don't know the fucking business until you're in it. So congrats, your insurance license got you a nice card with your pic on it. Hell, I'm considering taking some of the bullshit classes just so I can renew mine for next year. It's not exactly hard for anyone with an IQ over 80 to get a license. Your point again?

Opstand, if I didn't say it before (I think I did), your sister did the right thing. You have $100k WL that will help in the instance it's needed. So thanks, your sister just proved my point. Apparently she's an idiot also for advising you to convert $100k over to WL? I don't get what your point is. *just went back, the reference to financial advisors was people throwing out "references" to other advisors claiming shit.

And I'm glad you play to win. Good for you. You play your little ass off and hope to hell everything works out. Personally, I like to cover my bases. I like to plan for the worst and hope and try for the best. You see, I'm not a fucking idiot. I realize that I can't control all aspects of my life. Congratulations, apparently you can.

Let's see, if you die nobody has to pay your bills. That's nice. I guess everyone that you owe money to is simply going to wait around for you to die rather than trying to get it from you beforehand then. And medicare/medicaid are jokes. IF they're around when we reach the age for them then great. Even then, they don't cover shit now the majority of the time. And good idea, let's just say Fuck the hospital and not worry about paying the bills. Hopefully everyone older than us will do that to so that by the time I'm 50 it will cost around $100k for a damn X-Ray. So, you develop cancer, struggle with it for 2 years and beat it. In the process you run up $400k worth of medical bills. So your plan is to just not pay them? Great. Personally, I don't like fucking other people over so I would be doing my best to pay them. There went a lot of my savings/investments/retirement so I'm happy to know that my wife/family will be receiving money upon my death to make it easier on them since some of what I set aside is now gone.

Oh, and your health/disability insurance is a lovely dream. Unfortunately, you probably won't be able to afford it when you're 70 if you can even get it. Most health insurance policies are not guarantee issue so if you get sick, they can drop you upon renewal.

*edit* the above is for everyone/whoever. I didn't pay attention to who said most of what.

David0603 - I'm glad that you will be able to choose when you start a family. I assume that you and your spouse have no problem with abortion? And what's wrong with "forcing" people to save for retirement? Do you want to pay for them? I don't. Regardless, life insurance isn't going to pay for your retirement unless you retire at age 100. What it does is take care of the familys that are left behind. I don't particularly want to pay for them either and would be very happy to know that they're not going to be living off the government's (and thusly mine) dime after their spouse's death. And if I can, I'm going to pay my kid's (s') tuition. I'd rather them not have to start out life in debt. And retirement was last on my list because I was responding to things as I noticed them. I started saving for retirement when I was 16 (2 years after I started working. and yes, it was quite illegally). I started investing when I was 18. Did you have a point?

And if you haven't seen my "why" as to buying WL, you're fucking idiots. You can't plan for every contigency. You can't control everything in your life. "Playing to win" is going to mean a whole lot when you figure out you're not in control of your life. You can't stop the drunk driver about to run into you. You can't stop the tumor growing in your head. You can't stop the fall down the stairs. So, you guys keep on doing what you're doing. Keep getting insurance advice from the people making money off your investments (gee, wait.... is it possible they want you to spend money with THEM?!?!?! OMG, no way!). While you're at it, go ahead and ask your doctor about the funny sound your car is making.

As far as me being an ex-insurance agent, I quit for one reason. I wanted to go back to school which is what I'm doing now. I didn't have a problem explaining any of this stuff to my clients. They were actually smart enough to realize that I knew more than them. Add the fact that I actually explained to many of them why they didn't need as much as they wanted and I had no problems getting trust or sales.

Nowhere did I say that you need ONLY WL. I simply pointed out the reasons that SOME WL is a good idea and will be very welcome in many cases. Trust me, you go and hand that check to the family of an 80 year old lady that has been battling cancer off an on for the past 6 years and you'll see how great a thing it is. It can take someone from being beat down, broke, and without hope to putting them back on their feet giving them a renewed sense of hope.

Don't worry though, I'm done. Feel free to spout out more about things that you don't understand, how you control everything in your life, and what YOU think is right because you're obviously the best qualified. I'm done trying to help fools understand.

5/3/2007 1:03:12 AM

Wow, where to begin...

First off, you were the one who said

Quote :

"When I meet a financial advisor with their insurance license, that's when I'll consider listening to anything they have to say."

so, I'm not sure why you started your last post by saying

Quote :

"So congrats, your insurance license got you a nice card with your pic on it. Hell, I'm considering taking some of the bullshit classes just so I can renew mine for next year. It's not exactly hard for anyone with an IQ over 80 to get a license. Your point again?"

The fucking point in response to your first damn statement.

Quote :

"Let's see, if you die nobody has to pay your bills. That's nice. I guess everyone that you owe money to is simply going to wait around for you to die rather than trying to get it from you beforehand then."

EXACTLY! Yet you insist on suggesting whole life insurance. You insist a product that won't help out the dying person's family until that person is dead, opposed to other products (health care/medicare/medicaid/long term dis insurance) which will actually help out the person before they die. Also, did you ever consider the fact the person may live? They may get rid of the cancer and continue living decades longer. What's your big fancy whole life insurance policy going to do for you then?

Quote :

"your plan is to just not pay them? Great. Personally, I don't like fucking other people over so I would be doing my best to pay them."

Wow, your logic is flawed in almost every paragraph. This implies that everyone should have whole life insurance so their bills will be paid once they die. You suggest that me, a single childless person should have whole life. A newborn baby should get whole life. (typical insurance pitch) Every single person in the world should have whole life to pay any bills they rack up before they die.

Quote :

"Oh, and your health/disability insurance is a lovely dream. Unfortunately, you probably won't be able to afford it when you're 70 if you can even get it. Most health insurance policies are not guarantee issue so if you get sick, they can drop you upon renewal."

So, in the event you live past your term life coverage AND you get a horrible sickness AND you live long enough to rack up a ton of medical bills AND health/disability no longer exists, your family is fucked. Nice scenario. Guess what, someone could launch nuclear weapons and kill us too. Should we all build bomb shelters in case that happens?

Quote :

"David0603 - I'm glad that you will be able to choose when you start a family. I assume that you and your spouse have no problem with abortion?"

For the record I don't have a spouse, but neither my gf or I have a problem with abortion. Besides, it's not like people magically get pregnant. I'll draw you some stick figures or use some hand puppets if you need further info.

Quote :

"what's wrong with "forcing" people to save for retirement? Do you want to pay for them? "

We already pay for them. Take a look at your paystub lately?

Quote :

"I started investing when I was 18. Did you have a point?"

My point was obvious. I specifically said "you shouldn't delay saving for retirement in order to fund your kids college education." Wow, you are dense.

Quote :

"You can't stop the drunk driver about to run into you. You can't stop the tumor growing in your head. You can't stop the fall down the stairs"

More what ifs. I would sue the drunk drive, have other forms of insurance take care of the cancer, and if I fell down the stairs I would fucking get up and continue my day. Fall down some stairs?!?!? Is that seriously the best you could come up with?

It seems that Dave's problem is he has a serious lack of understanding as to why one should buy life insurance. It seems that even being in the industry he still has no clue it's fundamental purpose.

5/3/2007 9:23:07 AM

one more post. You sir are a fucking idiot.

Life insurance is not for YOU, it's for your FUCKING FAMILY!

You get sick, you pay bills, money is gone, you die, family is broke. Medicare/Medicaid are bullshit. Health/disability insurance at old age is expensive and that's why there's a shit ton of people that don't have it. Add to that the fact that you will not be guaranteed coverage if you're high risk (when's the last time you met an old person with diabetes, cancer, overweight, high blood pressure, alzeihemers, smokes, etc.? Every day? Yeah, insurance is very easy for them to obtain, right?

And yeah, I did consider the fact that the person may live. That's why I posted that about getting cancer and surviving or having a spouse that survived cancer. Gee, failed English I guess, right? The bills from SURVIVING an illness are a bit higher than from DIEING from an illness. So congrats, survive it, pay the bills, your family is broke. Just what I said above. But that's right, you're just not going to pay any bills when you're older so it's ok. Your family will be fine. Well, as fine as they can be living with your ignorant ass.

And I suggest that you, a childless person, should get whole life because of your AGE. Waiting makes any insurance more expensive. It makes more sense to get it now and save a shit ton of money than waiting until you're older and feel like you have the need. Do you plan to get married? Plan to have kids? If yes, then what the fuck is your trouble comprehending? Would you rather pay $500/yr for the next 40 years or $1000/yr for the next 40 years starting in 10 years???

And it's great that you believe in abortion. I don't. I think it's another way that fucktards like you can keep from accepting responsibility for your actions. A lot of other people feel the same way. So if they get pregnant, they're going to keep it. And it's not uncommon for couples to wind up pregnant. I guess you're also too fucking stupid to understand simple percentages. B/C is not 100%. Therefore, you can get pregnant when on the pill, using a condom, or any other type of b/c. I've known about 5 couples that got pregnant unexpectantly.

And yeah, we do already pay for people too stupid to save money. So you're fine with that? You're ok with the population getting more lazy and us having to pay more and more? Good for you. I'm not. I'd love nothing more than for there to be some sort of mandatory retirement savings that would actually be around when people get older. But hey, I guess I'm weird and just don't like paying for everyone else's lazy ass.

And your point wasn't that you shouldn't delay saving. You were trying to be a smartass and imply that I didn't and you got shown the fuck up. Good try though.

Last, sue a drunk driver. Good for you. That will typically get you nowhere. And out of curiosity, do you know ANYTHING about insurance? Do you have something special that pays for everything? Do you have something that is guaranteed to cover you until age 100? Just checking cause it seems like you think it's a fucking unicorn that will take care of everything. The rest of us have copays, deductibles, and insurance companies that don't like to pay for some shit. We also are subject to being dropped in the future. But hey, you're covered cause you're fucking special. And go ahead and take a header down some stairs. I'm sure we'll all be better off for at least a short time. It's weird but a lot of people (especially when they're older) tend to get injured falling down 10 wood or concrete stairs. You know, they get things like head injuries/concussions, break arms/hips/legs, or get knocked the fuck out and sit there until someone finds them. But again, you're special. We get it.

And no, I understand why you buy life insurance. Apparently you don't.

You buy it for your family. If you're an arrogant asshole that doesn't care about their family, good for you. Many of us do. We care about what financial condition they're left in after we die. Then again, we're all not omniscient, omnipotent, and we realize that shit happens. I'm not irresponsible enough to think that I know everything that's going to happen and "it'll all be ok".

Later dumbass.

5/3/2007 2:00:08 PM

Quote :

"The bills from SURVIVING an illness are a bit higher than from DIEING from an illness. So congrats, survive it, pay the bills, your family is broke."

I'll be able to afford the bills since I'm investing my money, not wasting it on whole life insurance.

Quote :

"I suggest that you, a childless person, should get whole life because of your AGE. Waiting makes any insurance more expensive. It makes more sense to get it now and save a shit ton of money than waiting until you're older and feel like you have the need."

So you think everyone should buy life insurance for their newborns, right?

Quote :

"And it's great that you believe in abortion. I don't. I think it's another way that fucktards like you can keep from accepting responsibility for your actions."

Good call. Instead of getting an abortion young couples should drop out of high school or college to have a kid and then live in poverty the rest of their lives. The kids will grow up poor and have a higher risk of being exposed to drugs, crime. The parents will most likely suffer the same fate because of their lack of education. Who is the irresponsible one again?

Quote :

"I've known about 5 couples that got pregnant unexpectantly."

Give me a break. Ever see the actual statistics for birth control vs if used effectively? No one is going to say I was a dumbass and forgot to take my pill and got knocked up.

Quote :

"I'd love nothing more than for there to be some sort of mandatory retirement savings that would actually be around when people get older. "

Right, lets give the govt more of our money so it can invest it along with social security and get a whopping 2% return. Of course, you probably think that is a good amount since you like to invest in life insurance.

Quote :

"And your point wasn't that you shouldn't delay saving. You were trying to be a smartass and imply that I didn't and you got shown the fuck up. Good try though."

Yeah, you really showed me. Just like you are showing me up in this thread....

Quote :

"Last, sue a drunk driver. Good for you. That will typically get you nowhere."

On what are you basing that foolish statement?

Quote :

"go ahead and take a header down some stairs. I'm sure we'll all be better off for at least a short time. It's weird but a lot of people (especially when they're older) tend to get injured falling down 10 wood or concrete stairs. You know, they get things like head injuries/concussions, break arms/hips/legs, or get knocked the fuck out and sit there until someone finds them."

Heh. Here you go again with the stair example. Last time I checked you don't get cancer from falling down the stairs. I feel sure my nice nest egg can cover a broken bone or two. It's ok that you invested your money in life insurance. Your family will be set to as long as the fall kills you, right?

Quote :

"you're an arrogant asshole that doesn't care about their family"

Hah, you are starting to sound like the guy Jim mentioned in his original post.

5/3/2007 2:23:41 PM

Where did you go dave? I'm DIEING [sic] to hear your response.

5/3/2007 3:37:42 PM

^ thank you for clarifying my obvious point

5/3/2007 5:35:30 PM

Quote :

"I'll be able to afford the bills since I'm investing my money, not wasting it on whole life insurance. "

Cool, glad you know the future and exactly how much money you're going to need. Unfortunately, my crystal ball is broken and I don't. That's why I like to make sure I protect my loved ones.

Quote :

" So you think everyone should buy life insurance for their newborns, right? "

Looking at the cost, it's sure as hell not a bad idea. My kids will have WL. I'll be more than happy knowing that I'm helping them to look after their future family. Again, you're an asshole who doesn't care. Don't worry, I got that.

Quote :

" Good call. Instead of getting an abortion young couples should drop out of high school or college to have a kid and then live in poverty the rest of their lives. The kids will grow up poor and have a higher risk of being exposed to drugs, crime. The parents will most likely suffer the same fate because of their lack of education. Who is the irresponsible one again? "

Again, I think it's a bullshit excuse for people who refuse to take responsibility for their actions. I've known many many mothers and fathers that were in school and went on to get very well paying jobs. If you're too retarded, that's your problem, not mine. I'm from the school of "you have to pay to play". If you're too stupid to use protection, that's your problem. If you're too ignorant to accept the possibility of that protection not working, that's your problem. Unfortunately there's too many fools like you that consider it birth control. Regardless, that's another topic for another time. Even in my current drunken state, I don't feel like arguing it with you. As long as it's a law, it's your right to kill your unborn children before they reach 3 months. Feel free.

Quote :

" Give me a break. Ever see the actual statistics for birth control vs if used effectively? No one is going to say I was a dumbass and forgot to take my pill and got knocked up. "

Yeah, I've seen the statistics. What's your point? Last time I checked, the statistics weren't 100%. 2 of the friends had latex alergies and couldn't use condoms (and didn't use the sheepskin shit) while relying on the pill. Didn't work. 2 of them were on the pill & condoms. 1 was on the quartlery injection shit and condoms. Obviously the "statistics" didn't work too well for them. I guess you failed that class? 98% /= 100% just to help you understand. Again, that's another discussion for another time and place.

Quote :

" Right, lets give the govt more of our money so it can invest it along with social security and get a whopping 2% return. Of course, you probably think that is a good amount since you like to invest in life insurance. "

Sure thing. Where exactly did I mention giving anything to the government? Where did I say anything about a 2% return? Oh, I got it. You just misunderstood. Good job. Reading comprehension 101. You should look into it. I've heard "Hooked on Phonics" works well also. Now that you mention it though, what's wrong with the Government doing it? You obviously think Medicare and Medicaid are great ideas and will be around long enough for you to take advanatage of them....

Quote :

" Yeah, you really showed me. Just like you are showing me up in this thread.... "

Odd, I've yet seen you make one good point to refute anything I've said other than you apparently know the future and don't care to plan any contigencies. You're right, you're definitely the one showing me up. Too bad none of your BS makes a bit of sense yet. But hey, I forgot. You're omniscient and omnipotent so it doesn't matter. You don't need any contingencies because you know EXACTLY what's going to happen to you and your family in the future. Next?

[/quote]

Quote :

" On what are you basing that foolish statement? "

I'm basing that "foolish" statement on 3 lawsuits that I've been close to. None of the people have been paid so far. 2 of the drivers had nothing to lose and 1 filed bankruptcy and listed the lawsuit in order to get out of paying (that one was my mother's case who was hospitalized for a week after a drunk driver hit her head on. She later went back to the hospital when she had an alergic reaction to the medication she was given since her INSURANCE felt it was time for her to leave and they had to switch her from IV to oral. That one was nice, hospital bills were over $400k but it's ok because insurance picked it all up, right? Wait, that's right. They had $75k that they had to cover. What was I thinking. I guess my parent's insurance company wasn't aware of your opinion that they're supposed to pay for everything. It's ok though because their investments paid for it and they only LOST $75k from RETIREMENT). So, how about you? I assume with that highly intelligent statement that you have reams of statistics showing that suing drunk drivers gets you paid?

Quote :

" Heh. Here you go again with the stair example. Last time I checked you don't get cancer from falling down the stairs. I feel sure my nice nest egg can cover a broken bone or two. It's ok that you invested your money in life insurance. Your family will be set to as long as the fall kills you, right? "

Are you really that dense? Again, reading comp. 101 or Hooked on Phonics. As long as your IQ is over 70, they will probably help you to understand what you read. Try breaking a hip sometime. Maybe an ankle. You go right ahead and "walk it off". Don't worry about the bills. If you're lucky, your broken ankle will be simple and won't require surgery. Maybe you'll be like some people and only have to go through physical therapy for a month or two while you relearn to walk after you lose the cast. Again, I've experience it. Have you? Yeah, didn't think so. Right now you sound like an ignorant 9 year old talking about how hard could it possibly be to hit a fast ball. When you know what you're talking about, let me know. Hell, have you ever broken ANY bones? Did you just get up and "walk it off"? I've broken 12 minor bones and have yet to have that miraculous moment where I simply shook it off.

Quote :

" Hah, you are starting to sound like the guy Jim mentioned in his original post. "

That's nice. At least I speak from experience rather than pulling shit out of my ass.

Quote :

"Where did you go dave? I'm DIEING [sic] to hear your response."

durhurhur... that was a good one. You got me. You win it all now. Sorry I mispelled a word after being up for 40 hours. Fuck, I'm drunk right now and I *STILL* at least have the ability to understand your posts (as ignorant as they may be). What's your excuse? And I'll say again that I'm done here. I'm drunk and beligerant and feel like fucking with people right now so this is fun. Whether it will be tomorrow, who knows but probably not. I'm going to go drink some more now so fuck you bitches.

5/4/2007 12:35:57 AM

look, life ins can be great. whole life,though, is not.

5/4/2007 1:07:09 AM

Quote :

"look, life ins can be great. whole life,though, is not. "

I suppose none of you have full coverage auto insurance either? Uninsured motorist coverage? Nor any type of supplemental insurance? After all, it's a waste of money as long as you don't plan on your car being stolen or being in an accident. Of course if something does happen, then you have savings to take care of it as well, right? I suppose if you have an auto loan then the finance company / bank may require full coverage but seriously, just explain that you have investments and that you won't have a wreck. I'm sure they'll trust you. After all, nobody *needs* full coverage since we all invest the money we save by only having the minimum state required coverage. Right?

5/4/2007 2:42:52 AM

Quote :

"The equivalent to whole life would be car insurance that buys you a brand new car after yours finally dies."

5/4/2007 9:40:52 AM

See those are the comparisons that just drive me crazy and totally make me not trust the guy. People get auto insurance because it is very likely that at some point, they will be in a wreck. I consider myself a great driver, but unfortunately after 13 years of driving without one, I had 2 last year (hit a deer and lost control on an icy incline while towing a car... ahhhh!!) Honestly though, death doesn't worry me all that much. It's not that it couldn't or won't ever happen in an instant, it is just not something that is really likely.

With that being said, I think that $500k is plenty of insurance. I mean, hell, she could pay off the mortage and still have plenty left over. I'm sure she'd sell our house in Washington then, and move back to West Virginia where the cost of living is much lower. She would probably live off the insurance/house profits for a while then eventually get a job, and probably eventually get remarried. That's just life. I'm sure when I get out of the Navy, I will probably reevaluate things and either do the VGLI or go with a different term life policy until I am 50ish.

5/4/2007 9:49:20 AM

Quote :

"Cool, glad you know the future and exactly how much money you're going to need. Unfortunately, my crystal ball is broken and I don't. That's why I like to make sure I protect my loved ones."

I could make the very same argument. How do you know much coverage you should get?

Quote :

"My kids will have WL. I'll be more than happy knowing that I'm helping them to look after their future family. Again, you're an asshole who doesn't care. Don't worry, I got that."

Holy crap. You are actually going to buy your kids WL? Even if we ignore the increases in medical costs, inflation will eat away at it over the decades.

Quote :

"I've known many many mothers and fathers that were in school and went on to get very well paying jobs."

I can only assume you meant to say dropped out of school. Of course there will always be people without schooling who will do well, but in this day in age, life will be much much harder without a degree.

Quote :

"Obviously the "statistics" didn't work too well for them. I guess you failed that class? 98% /= 100%"

The possibility of an unexpected pregnancy is even more reason to invest income for retirement now instead of wasting on things like wl insurance.

Quote :

"Where did I say anything about a 2% return? Oh, I got it. You just misunderstood. Good job. Reading comprehension 101. You should look into it. I've heard "Hooked on Phonics" works well also."

I listed 2% since that's about what social security has returned over the years.
You are still making fun of me after you mispelled dying in your last post???

Quote :

"Odd, I've yet seen you make one good point to refute anything I've"

Yet, so many people here agree with me....

Damn meeting. I'll be back....

[Edited on May 4, 2007 at 10:04 AM. Reason : ]

5/4/2007 10:04:28 AM

Quote :

"I'm basing that "foolish" statement on 3 lawsuits that I've been close to. None of the people have been paid so far. 2 of the drivers had nothing to lose and 1 filed bankruptcy and listed the lawsuit in order to get out of paying"

I know people who have sued, won, and gotten paid. Obviously this isn't always the case, but suing the driver and/or their insurance company is always an option.

Quote :

"hospital bills were over $400k but it's ok because insurance picked it all up, right? Wait, that's right. They had $75k that they had to cover. What was I thinking. I guess my parent's insurance company wasn't aware of your opinion that they're supposed to pay for everything."

Your parents should have gotten better coverage.

Quote :

"Try breaking a hip sometime. Maybe an ankle. You go right ahead and "walk it off". Don't worry about the bills. If you're lucky, your broken ankle will be simple and won't require surgery. Maybe you'll be like some people and only have to go through physical therapy for a month or two while you relearn to walk after you lose the cast. Again, I've experience it. Have you?"

How the hell have you experienced every scenario imaginable? That aside, HOW THE FUCK DOES LIFE INSURANCE HELP IN THIS CASE?!?!?!?

Quote :

"I've broken 12 minor bones and have yet to have that miraculous moment where I simply shook it off."

God damn, someone needs to be a little more careful.

Quote :

"At least I speak from experience rather than pulling shit out of my ass. "

speak from experience = biased as fuck

Quote :

"Sorry I mispelled a word after being up for 40 hours."

I only pointed out the mispelled word because your previous sentence was a sarcastic remark about failing English; the same remark which for some reason you continue to make. Guess you are just running out of ammo...

5/4/2007 12:12:07 PM

Let's see, I talked about failing English because you have no reading comprehension. That has repeatedly popped up in your posts. I don't know if you really can't understand what I'm typing, you're just reading too fast, or you are purposely trying to not argue my points.

You're right, car insurance is a good idea because you are likely to get into an accident at some point in your life. Perhaps you should look at the cost difference and see where you'd be if you would have invested the difference over the last 12 years. And the odd thing about your argument, everyone is guaranteed to die. So if likelihood is a reason to get full coverage, it's a reason to get WL. Instead, I used everyone's argument against WL against Full coverage auto. It boils down to the same thing. Invest your money since many people don't ever have an accident and most accidents are not bad. Same for uninsured motorist coverage. After all, you can just sue them and you'll obviously win. And I'd like to get the WL that you guys have seen. My coverage doesn't buy me a new life when I die. I don't know why the equivalent car insurance would buy you a new car.

FeebleMinded, nobody is talking about you increasing your insurance. This is about people saying that WL is a waste of money, not you increasing anything. $500k is plenty for most people. Some need more but that's when they have outstanding debts to take care of (i.e. 500k house, cars, business startups, etc.)

I don't know how much coverage I should have. However, having "more" is always better. I have a guaranteed amount coming to my family. You don't. You only have hopes, dreams, and expectations that your investments will still be around for them when you die. Guaranteed is much better than Hoped.

And yes, I will buy my kids WL. Yes, inflation will CHANGE the true value. However, I'll say it again, Guaranteed is much better than Hoped. Hell, $10k is better than $0. Hopefully you can agree with that.

And no, I didn't mean dropped out of school. This is one of those things that I was bullshitting the Reading Comp thing. Notice the "mothers and fathers" there. Not kids, not students. People who had children and continued in school. regardless, it's again another argument that's not conducive to this one.


Possiblity of an unexpected pregnancy is reason to pay attention to what you're doing. I do both, invest and keep my WL. I add to my WL every once in awhile (which will probably end next year when I hit 30). I'll be finished paying for most of my policies by the time I am 58 years old and they'll just be sitting there waiting on me. In the meantime I will continue investing and saving.

And again, the 2% thing, you said that, not me. You also seem to believe that Medicare and Medicaid are good things. Which is it? The government is or is not capable of having a good program?

Suing the driver and their insurance is NOT always an option. My roommate and several of my friends are cops. It's pretty often that drunk drivers have no DL or insurance. It's hard to sue something that isn't there. Most of them don't have much money either. So again, it's a pretty poor expectation.

Yeah, my parents should have gotten better coverage but they were happy with what they had because, like you, they didn't think anything would ever happen that would be bad enough to where it would make a difference. They were wrong. Hopefully you won't be.

I haven't experienced every scenario imaginable. I've just had an eventful life as have many members of my family. My mother's ankle was broken in her Drunk driver accident and it was 6 months before she was able to walk again. And it HELPS YOUR FAMILY AFTER YOU DIE! That is what life insurance is for. After you have spent money on health problems (something that's at a minimum reasonable to expect) and your investments and savings have taken a hit to the point where you have much less money available, you pass leaving your family less than you had hoped for, LIFE INSURANCE PAYS THEM. What's so hard to understand here? You die, they get paid. In the case of someone who has lost their retirement and savings (meaning their spouse has as well), insurance will give the remaining family what the person originally wanted them to have.

Yeah, I need to be more careful. What does that have to do with this? Besides, like I said, they were minor.


speak from experience = speaking with knowledge.
Pulling shit out of your ass = ignorant.

And no, I wasn't running out of ammo. It's extremely annoying for me to talk to people who have a basic lack of reading comprehension. It appeared that you fell into this category. Therefore, I will point it out to you hoping that you will begin paying attention. It's just really damn annoying.
Plus, how can I be running out of ammo. My stance hasn't changed a bit and you've yet to offer any reason that it's bad other than the money can be invested which will not be guaranteed to be around for your family. If it's not guaranteed, it's not "better" to me.

5/4/2007 3:15:34 PM

Dude, get a life. Whole life insurance is a bad deal. I'm sorry you used to sell it. You obviously drank the koolaid. We forgive you and understand you were only trying to help people.

5/4/2007 3:20:09 PM

i'm going to read this whole thread when i get time. i don't fully know all the nuances surrounding different types of insurance. i have a 30 yr term, but the coverage is not that great, and i'll need to upgrade soon.

5/4/2007 3:22:53 PM

Mmmmmmm the kool-aid tastes oh so good.

Quote :

"And again, the 2% thing, you said that, not me."

Yes, I said it. I admitted I said it last post. What's your point?

Quote :

"You also seem to believe that Medicare and Medicaid are good things. Which is it? The government is or is not capable of having a good program?"

Honestly I don't know a ton about Medicare/Medicaid, but I do believe some form of it will be around when I am older. The main government program I have a problem with is social security or any program which forces you to save as you suggested

Quote :

"My mother's ankle was broken in her Drunk driver accident and it was 6 months before she was able to walk again. And it HELPS YOUR FAMILY AFTER YOU DIE! "

What do you do in the decades between when you break your ankle and when you actually die?

Quote :

"speak from experience = speaking with knowledge."

That's bullshit. That's like saying someone has a mortgage knows more about them than a renter like myself does since they have experience and I don't. Just ask any Beazer homeowner who is going through foreclosure and probably bankruptcy.

Quote :

"If it's not guaranteed, it's not "better" to me."

Your investments aren't guaranteed. Why not just put every cent you have into a whole life policy???

5/4/2007 3:39:36 PM

So you still have no arguments.

Having experience beats reading about it. Seriously, do you feel that you are qualified to perform open heart surgery by reading about it? If you need a new head gasket, do you feel that simply reading the manual will allow you to do so with no mistakes while understanding what you are doing? When you go on job interviews, do you tell the recruiter "hey man, I went to school you see, so I know all about this stuff. In fact, since I'm younger than you and I had better classes, you should just give me your job since I know more. Obviously I'll be better than you." If you truly believe that experience doesn't mean anything, then you sir are an idiot. Hell, I've read a lot of biology books & female psych books so I guess that means I know more about being a woman than the females who haven't? Is that what you are seriously trying to argue?


The 2% thing was something you brought up in order to say that having some sort of retirement set up with every employee is a bad idea. You also stated that Medicare and Medicaid are good things. You used the 2% to say that the government can't do a good job with our money yet Government controlled Medicare and Medicaid are good? That holds absolutely no water. Therefore, I keep bringing it up hoping that you can realize that your argument is self defeating. Plus, I said nothing about the government controlling anything. Make laws that change 401ks since the majority of people work for a company that offers one. The ones that don't can set one up. Change it so that the 401k moves with you rather than staying with the company (that's right, change it so that companies can quit raping their employees of retirement savings since most people will not retire with the company they are with now). So your argument about the government not being able to run it refutes your argument about depending on Medicare and Medicaid and is also pointless since the government doesn't have to be in charge of your retirement savings. Understand why your argument was pointless now? And if you don't understand it, you shouldn't try to use it to prove your point and argue for it.

What do you do in the "decades" between breaking your angle and die? Depends on who the person is. If you do it when you're 70, not much since you're probably not going to re-enter the workplace. What do you do if you do it the year before you die? What do you do between the 5 years of beating cancer and dying? What do you do in the 2 months between being getting out of rehabilitation from your broken hip and dying? I'm sorry, what was your point again? I apparently missed it. I suppose you were trying to say that you're going to be going back to work? I forgot, you know your future. The rest of us aren't sure what (if anything) will happen to us later in life.

The average homeowner that has a mortgage knows more about them than the average renter that has never owned a home. That's called common sense. Just like the average mechanic knows more about how a car works than the average Joe that's never worked on his. Like the average psychiatrist that knows more about the mind that others. The average surgeon, the average financial analyst, the average mother, etc. etc. Do I need to continue? Yeah, some people will "know" more but knowledge is useless without experience. Hell, since you know so much about life insurance and investments, I don't understand why you're not doing both for a career. You'd be a millionaire in a year!

No, my investments aren't guaranteed. That's why I also have life insurance. I don't put everything I have in them because I'd like to provide for my future AND my family's future. While I could simply put everything into WL, I don't mind taking a chance on making a lot more profit since I have something for both myself and my family to fall back on (in other words, if my investments are gone due to illness after retirement, I have enough WL to cash some in for me while leaving enough for my family after my death.

And I missed one of your earlier points. People here agree with you. And? Do you think I honestly care whether the average idiot agrees with me or not? I don't live my life according to what others think. I certainly don't need to opinion or approval of tww people to feel good about myself. Hell, you do realize how retarded that is in the first place, right? Hitler wasn't exactly un-popular. Same for Stalin. You can find people that will agree with any argument you can come up with regardless of how completely ass backwards it is. I don't agree with abortion as birth control. I believe in my right to self defense. I believe that the death penalty is a waste of money and an easy way out. I believe homosexuals should have the rights of straight sex couples. I believe in a whole lot of things that a lot of people disagree with. I've yet to have a single person give me one lgoical reason as to why any of them are bad beliefs.

And seriously, I need to get a life as much as you people do. It takes 2 to argue. At least I speak from experience and logic rather than throwing BS reasons up. You do what you want and I'll do what I want. I'll feel very safe and secure knowing that my future family's future is guaranteed rather than relying on hopes and dreams.

5/4/2007 4:48:50 PM

Quote :

"Change it so that the 401k moves with you rather than staying with the company (that's right, change it so that companies can quit raping their employees of retirement savings since most people will not retire with the company they are with now)."

I took my 401K money when I moved from my last job.

Quote :

"Hell, since you know so much about life insurance and investments, I don't understand why you're not doing both for a career. You'd be a millionaire in a year!"

I would be if the average client was as dumb as you.

Quote :

"I have enough WL to cash some in for me while leaving enough for my family after my death."

But how do you know they'll have enough?!?!?

Quote :

"People here agree with you. And?"

Usually when the majority of intelligent people agree on something then they are correct.

Quote :

"At least I speak from experience and logic rather than throwing BS reasons up."

Feel free to point out any reasons which I made that were false.

5/4/2007 5:05:15 PM

If the average client was as dumb as me? Funny. You're the dumbass who thinks he knows the future.

I don't know that they'll have enough. My point, again, is that unlike you, I know that they'll have SOMETHING. I know that my family won't be forced to sell their house and move into an apartment. I know that if I have to cash in $100k of my WL before my death, they'll have a minimum of $200k to live on. What is it that you know? That your family will hopefully be ok if nothing happens to you? That you hope your investments will do well? That you hope you won't develop any expensive health issues that cripples your retirement fund before your death? Maybe that you hope you outlive your spouse/family so that they won't be around to wonder why you left them broke after your death? Good job. Like I said, I've got a guarantee. You have shit but hopes and dreams.

Usually when the majority of intelligent people agree on something, then they are correct. Great. Like the scientists that found that it was physically impossible for a bumblebee to fly? Seriously, you just called people on TWW intelligent. You're also grouping in a shit ton of laypeople into experts. Doesn't work that way in the real world.

I can't show any reasons that you've given that were false because you haven't given any valid reasons. Your only reason on why WL is a bad decision is that you can make more money by investing the difference between WL & TL and make more money. Also that you don't need life insurance after you quit working. I've explained why that's, at best, a hopeful dream. You've yet to show me that I'm wrong. YOU don't need life insurance. It's your family that may need it after you're gone. If you don't give a shit about them, then don't get any.

You call me dumb yet you can't even provide any valid argument as to why I'm wrong. Sorry, but it is you that is an idiot. You think that reading a book is better than experience. You think that your investments and health are guaranteed. You think that the average idiot knows more than people that do something for a living.

Let's reevaluate here.

You: assume that you will lead a healthy life. assume that your investments will continue to grow and never lose money. assume that you will be able to afford and get health insurance when you're elderly. assume that EVERYTHING THAT ISN'T GUARANTEED will somehow all work out!

Me: KNOW that I don't know what my life will be like in a later life. KNOW that my investments are not guaranteed and I can lose everything I've put in at the whim of your average dumbass investor freaking out at home and helping to create a false depression. KNOW that it's quite possible that I won't be able to afford OR be approved for health insurance when I'm elderly. KNOW that my family will have SOMETHING to live on after my death unless every insurance company goes out of business (because even if my insurance company goes out of business, by law other insurance companies must group together to pay out all claims held by that company in order to do business here).

So, I have a guarantee that I bank on. You bank on hopes, dreams, & good feelings. Hmm... yeah obviously you're right. The world is a beautiful place where nothing bad ever happens and as long as I live my life the right way, nothing will ever go wrong for me. Wait, isn't that what they call delusional? Hold on, I've got a book around here somewhere, I'm sure I can diagnose you better than a shrink.

You just go ahead and let me know when you have a real argument as to why WL is a bad idea while providing a guarantee for your family.

5/4/2007 7:09:10 PM

Quote :

"Like I said, I've got a guarantee."

A few hundred k is your so called guarantee???

Quote :

"Seriously, you just called people on TWW intelligent."

Yes, I did. There are plenty of intelligent people on TWW. There are plenty of people I know on here and plenty of people I respect based on stated ideas and opinions. You've got tons of graduates in engineering, math, science. How can you not think they are intelligent???

Quote :

"Your only reason on why WL is a bad decision is that you can make more money by investing the difference between WL & TL and make more money. Also that you don't need life insurance after you quit working. I've explained why that's, at best, a hopeful dream."

How is this a hopeful dream??? I fail to see where you have explained this.

Quote :

"YOU don't need life insurance. It's your family that may need it after you're gone."

Yet you tell me to get whole life even though I have no family that would need it...

Quote :

"You think that the average idiot knows more than people that do something for a living."

A. The posters on this thread are not average idiots
B. You no longer do this for a living

Quote :

"You: assume that you will lead a healthy life. assume that your investments will continue to grow and never lose money. assume that you will be able to afford and get health insurance when you're elderly. assume that EVERYTHING THAT ISN'T GUARANTEED will somehow all work out!"

I don't need "everything" to work out, I just need some of those things to work out. You, on the other hand, are betting that "everything" will fail. That is a scenario which is highly unlikely.

Quote :

"You bank on hopes, dreams, & good feelings."

Hahahahaha. You go to making fun of my reading comprehension to making outlandish statements such as this. Hopes....dreams....good feeling....and you say I pull stuff out of my ass!

Quote :

"You just go ahead and let me know when you have a real argument as to why WL is a bad idea while providing a guarantee for your family."

It will come a point in time when my family will not depend on me for income. Once that point comes my term life insurance will end and I will have no need for whole life insurance. That is the basis of my original argument.

5/5/2007 1:30:13 AM

Yes, a few hundred thousand is my guarantee. Last time I checked a few hundred k is more than 0. Did you miss that part of basic math? Like I said, I have a guarantee, you don't.

Yeah, there are some intelligent people on tww. There's also a SHIT TON of retarded ass people on here and they greatly outnumber the intelligent ones. Regardless, intelligent or not, you know shit about a subject until you study it at a minimum. Doing it will teach you even more. I don't recall anyone other than you talking about having even studying it and nobody doing it. The only person talked about that has "walked the walk" was the one guy's sister that had him convert 100k over to WL. So, the people that have done it apparently recommend having some WL. The people that haven't don't. Maybe it's just me but I trust the people that have done it more than the people that just talk.

It's a "hopeful dream" because it is not reality. You *hope* that all will be fine and your investments will be around for your family. It's a dream because you have not grown old yet and don't know what will happen. What's so hard to understand? Do you call an assumption about the future fact? Do we need to review both basic math and 2nd grade English?

Do you plan to have a family? If yes, then what's better? Waiting until you're older and paying 40% higher premiums or paying 40% less for 5-10 years and then continuing to pay 40% less as you age? Hmm... I'll take the lower rate. Thanks! You're forgetting one other thing, I haven't told you to get shit. I've told you that you're an idiot for saying that WL is a waste of money and given you the reasons for such. What you do is your family's problem, not mine.

The posters on this thread are made up of 2 people now. Before that, it was made up of people taking insurance advice from someone that makes money off of them investing instead except for 2 people. One person was the OP that had the question. The other person is the one whose sister is his FA and recommended WL to him. The last 2 people (you and me) is a person that thinks he knows everything but has no reason whatsoever even though he has no experience whatsoever (you) and me who actually has the experience. And yes, I am out of the business. However, not much has changed in the < year since I quit.

And no, you don't need everything to work out. But you sure as hell need SOMETHING to work out. You put your eggs in one basket, I'll put mine in several. Go ahead and ask your genius FA if it's a good idea for you to invest all of your money in one thing. I'm sure he'll tell you it's a wonderful idea. And I'm not "betting" on anything failing. I'm not aware of any industry out there that recommends not having a backup plan. This is my backup plan because "highly unlikely" /= impossible.

There's nothing outlandish about my statement. You are actually planning on everything being OK. If it's not, your family is fucked. I explained this above. Go ahead and read it again.

And hopefully there will be a time where your family will not depend on you for income. If you or your wife has an illness that drains your savings down to minimal levels and she outlives you for 20 years, does she just need to go back to work? Obviously there will be no life insurance coming from you so maybe your kids will be nice and let her live with them. They can buy her groceries and medication. They can pay for her doctor's visits and any medical bills in the case that she develops an illness or has an accident after your death. I'm sure they won't mind and they'll have PLENTY of money to do it with, right? You see, this is why a plan is a good thing. Simply assuming that everything will be ok is irresponsible and stupid. Assuming that we won't have another depression-era crash won't keep it from happening. Assuming that your children will be successful and have money to take care of things (like your widowed spouse) is not going to help if they want to be artists, teachers, or social workers.

I'm STILL waiting on you to come up with a valid argument other than "it's not likely." If you plan your life around what is likely and what is not then you have no need for any insurance other than your basic coverage. You only need liability and basic health & dental. You won't need anything other than checkups now and then until you're 10-20 years older (major health concerns don't USUALLY surface until the 40s or 50s after all). Most people are never involved in a major accident so you don't need full coverage. Surge protectors in the house? No need since you USUALLY won't lose any equipment due to a power surge. I'm willing to bet you have pretty much all of the above. Why? Don't you take your own advice? Just bet your life on what's likely and you should be good to go, right? Seriously, can't you give me ONE argument about why WL is bad that is based on fact? So far it's just been a bunch of "shouldn't", "isn't likely", and "the guy that makes money off my investments says I shouldn't". It's like arguing with my 9 year old nephew. You just keep throwing the same shit back out or ignoring it altogether.

5/5/2007 2:35:56 AM

Quote :

"Yes, a few hundred thousand is my guarantee. Last time I checked a few hundred k is more than 0. Did you miss that part of basic math? Like I said, I have a guarantee, you don't."

I plan to have much more than a few hundred k once my future term life runs outs.

Quote :

"So, the people that have done it apparently recommend having some WL. The people that haven't don't. Maybe it's just me but I trust the people that have done it more than the people that just talk."

The only reason Jim's financial advisor suggested it is because he can make way more off that than 5% front loaded class a funds.

Quote :

"It's a "hopeful dream" because it is not reality. You *hope* that all will be fine and your investments will be around for your family. It's a dream because you have not grown old yet and don't know what will happen. What's so hard to understand? Do you call an assumption about the future fact?"

No, but when the market has returned a specific average over the last half century there's a pretty good chance that it will continue doing the same for the next half century. Like I said before, nuclear weapons could kill us all off. You could end up with millions of dollars in debt. You can keep listing what ifs all day long.

Quote :

"Do you plan to have a family? If yes, then what's better? Waiting until you're older and paying 40% higher premiums or paying 40% less for 5-10 years and then continuing to pay 40% less as you age?"

You crazy kids and your lack of understanding of opportunity cost. Money now is worth much more than money in the future.

Quote :

"The posters on this thread are made up of 2 people now."

So, does that mean you will just ignore all posts from several days ago?

Quote :

"You put your eggs in one basket"

Try again. I have cds, stocks, bonds, mutual funds, reits, index funds, real estate, and eventually I will have term life.

Quote :

"You are actually planning on everything being OK. If it's not, your family is fucked. I'm STILL waiting on you to come up with a valid argument other than "it's not likely.""

How is my family fucked? Oh, right because potentially all of my investments could fail and I could lose everything. You on the other hand will have a few hundred k of whole life insurance. So if we were to both rack up a few hundred k in bills, but not over a million, and die, then yes, my family would be fucked. Is that the argument you are trying to make? You'll be lucky if your little policy is worth 100K in today's dollars by the time you die. Assuming everything you say is true and everything I say is false your few hundred k of life insurance won't provide you anything other than a nice warm fuzzy false sense of security.



[Edited on May 5, 2007 at 10:59 AM. Reason : ]

5/5/2007 10:57:18 AM

your eggs are in one basket = investments.

and again, you apparently can't understand basic math. A few hundred K is more than 0.

Yes, I can keep listing what ifs all day long. However, my "what ifs" actually have a probability above 2% unlike nuclear holocost.

I understand opportunity cost. I also understand inflation. I also understand that paying 40% more for something when I'm 70 and not working will not be nearly as easy as paying less when I'm 50 or 60. Money right now isn't worth anything if I don't need it. Right now, I don't need it. So, I split some into savings and some into WL. Again, I *know* I will have WL there when I die. It's probable that my WL policies will be fully matured since I chose to pay less when I had an income rather than more when I didn't. I'm a crazy kid but you are apparently too dumb to understand that income is better than no income. You can't understand that you will pay MORE for ALL insurance when you're older, possibly to the point of being where you can't afford it. You want to talk insurance but you apparently know shit about it. Have you ever even looked at a rate book? You honestly think it's better for people to plan higher payments for older ages rather than lower payments and younger ages? If so, you're fucking retarded.

What posts am I ignoring? Did you skip the rest of the paragraph? It was covered. Maybe that's where your lack of basic reading skills comes from.

And thank you for admitting that I'm right. Your family will be fucked if you run your investments dry. Mine will at least have a few hundred thousand to fall back on. Fucked vs. a cushion. And all that needs to happen is for you to be a cancer survivor at older age. That's it. You can easily rack up millions of dollars in hospital bills that will wipe out most of your investments. Now, imagine that happens when you're 55 and you can't work anymore. Then you die at 63. Your wife is going to have a lot longer to live without money than you are. But it's cool. After all, it's all gon' be alright. The problem is that you make assumptions based on hope. I make a back up plan. If all goes well, my family and I will be able to relax with a few million. If not, they at least don't wind up on the street. You're sitting at "if all goes well, my family and I will be able to relax with a few million. If not.... uhh.... uhhh.... hopefully it's not real bad."

Oh, and it was Opstand who's sister recommended the WL. I forgot that feebleMinded's guy did as well. And why would his financial advisor recommend he get WL over investing. After all, there's more than one thing he can invest in and the financial advisor actually gets paid for investing, not insurance. Seriously, it's planning for the future. Not planning for YOUR future but planning for THE future. You know, the future outside of you, the life of your wife & kids. Apparently, you seem like a selfish prick anyway though so it's not surprising that you don't give a damn.

5/5/2007 3:15:17 PM

Quote :

"your eggs are in one basket = investments."

What the hell does that mean? Are you seriously classifying every item I listed in the same category?

Quote :

"I also understand that paying 40% more for something when I'm 70 and not working will not be nearly as easy as paying less when I'm 50 or 60."

So plan ahead. It isn't rocket science. Besides, you talked about buying whole life way before you turn 50 or 60.

Quote :

"I'm a crazy kid but you are apparently too dumb to understand that income is better than no income."

Investments earning interest = income
Whole life insurance != income

Quote :

"You can't understand that you will pay MORE for ALL insurance when you're older, possibly to the point of being where you can't afford it."

If I can't afford something such as health insurance then how will life insurance help me if I don't have enough money to cover an operation or treatment? If I'm not insured do you think the doctors will just say "it's cool, we'll do the operation, you can pay us off in a few decades when you die and your life insurance policy pays out"

Quote :

"You honestly think it's better for people to plan higher payments for older ages rather than lower payments and younger ages? If so, you're fucking retarded."

If I decided to buy whole life it may be stupid to wait until I am old, but guess what dipshit, I won't be buying whole life, so I won't have any payments to make towards whole life insurance.

Quote :

"Your family will be fucked if you run your investments dry."

If...if...if.... All these what ifs Do you think I just assume my investments will last me throughout retirement? I've done the calculations. My chance of failure is < 1%

Quote :

"Mine will at least have a few hundred thousand to fall back on. You can easily rack up millions of dollars in hospital bills that will wipe out most of your investments."

I'm confused. Lets assume all of my investments fails. Are you saying it is better for your family to be 4.5 million dollars in debt after you die than mine being 5 million dollars in debt after I die?

Quote :

"Apparently, you seem like a selfish prick anyway though so it's not surprising that you don't give a damn."

Did Jim's financial advisor gain access to tww because you are sounding more and more like him. I never said don't get life insurance, fuck your family. All I said was get term life insurance, not whole.

5/5/2007 3:37:22 PM

Quote :

"If I were to choose never to invest another dollar again, they would never make another cent."

Is this common?

5/5/2007 3:58:31 PM

Nah I doubt it. I was just trying to stress that I only pay a front load on my initial investment, and anything I make afterwards is mine.

5/5/2007 5:47:17 PM

Apparently there's no need to argue further. You're so fucking stupid you can't understand a word I type. You can't understand basic math. You have no reading skills. It's impossible to talk to you because you're too much of a fucking idiot.

I am planning ahead. That's why I have life insurance and why I specifically have both WL & term. And you're a fucking idiot if you buy WL at 50 or 60 because you will be paying on it until the day you die IF you can afford it which is doubtful. You truly are fucking retarded aren't you? You pay for term life forever until it is done and then you lose it. Most WL policies you will pay to a certain point when your policy has completely matured (i.e. if you quit paying, you lose no value). So, if you start now, you will pay for the next 20-30 years. If you start in 10 years you will still be paying 30-40 years from now. Taking my age (29) and adding 20-30 years is 50 or 60. Taking the age where you think it makes sense to buy any life insurance (approx. 10 years from now is an estimate) and adding 20-30 years is 60 or 70. It's basic fucking math. If you buy it now, you will most likely be done paying it by retirement. Seriously, just shut the fuck up. You're too fucking stupid to even know what the hell you're talking about. You've already admitted that about other things, now just admit that you know shit about life insurance.

investments earning interest /= income. Income means you have money coming in. If your money is invested, YOU DON'T HAVE IT! You cash it in and it doesn't earn interest anymore. When you pull the money out and have earnED interest you have income. And whole life insurance also earns interest. However, it is definitely NOT a good way to earn money and no agent worth a damn will advise a client to invest in it. Again, you don't know what you're talking about so admit that so we can all get on with our lives.

again, you have no reading comprehension. LIFE INSURANCE IS NOT FOR YOU!!!!!!! IT IS FOR YOUR FAMILY!!!!!!! when you can understand those 2 basic fucking sentances, let me know. Seriously, you can't argue something you don't understand. If you lack the ability to even comprehend something as simple as the 2 sentances above then you can't argue. Please, shut the fuck up so we can all get on with our lives.

And sweet, I'm glad you've done the calculations. Please let me know where you got the calculations for the future. I'd like to use them. Again, you have assumptions and nothing more. Your chance of failure is unknown because the future is unknown. If nothing changes between now and your retirement then you can tell me what your chance of failure is. However, things will change and you have no idea what they will be or how they will change. Please explain to me how you can possibly calculate odds 40-50 years into the future that would actually mean a damn thing. The U.S. could declare war on Europe in 15 years and your calculations would change dramatically. A new system for the NYSE can be debuted in 5 years that crashes twice causing a panic and move away from NYSE stocks in which case your calculations would change dramatically. Your calculator could have been having a bad day. With your obvious lack of basic math skills, I definitely wouldn't trust the <1%. How did you do these calculations? Right now we both know you're full of shit.

Again, basic math. 4.5million is less than 5 million. 10% less debt is not a bad thing. What about if both of our investments are wiped out completely. My family has $350k and yours has $0. No matter what, my family comes out ahead.

I'm sounding more and more like him? No, I'm just stating facts. You definitely seem like a selfish prick. I'm not your wife or your family so I could give a shit whether you have ANY life insurance. You've repeatedly come across as having an attitude of "fuck my family, what about me?". That's why I say you seem like a selfish prick.

5/5/2007 6:41:15 PM

Quote :

"Apparently there's no need to argue further. You're so fucking stupid you can't understand a word I type. You can't understand basic math. You have no reading skills. It's impossible to talk to you because you're too much of a fucking idiot."

Yet you continue on for several more paragraphs...

Quote :

"you're a fucking idiot if you buy WL at 50 or 60"

Cool, guess I won't guy any at 50 or 60........ or 40 or 30 for that matter

Quote :

"You pay for term life forever until it is done and then you lose it."

Props to m-w

Main Entry: 1for·ev·er
Pronunciation: f&-'rev-&r, fo-; Southern often f&-'e-v&
Function: adverb
1 : for a limitless time

Work on your writing comprehension dave.

Quote :

"investments earning interest /= income. "

Try again retard. I have a cd that is currently earning interest and the interest gets deposited into my money market account. Uncle Sam insists I report it because it is......get ready.....wait for it....INCOME!!!!

Quote :

"again, you have no reading comprehension. when you can understand those 2 basic fucking sentances, let me know."

You really need to spell basic words correctly, especially in the sentances [sic] where you insult my basic English skills.

Quote :

"Please let me know where you got the calculations for the future. "

It's called probability. Imagine if someone wanted to make a bet that a flipped coin would come up heads 100 times in a row. You'd probably take that bet, wouldn't you?

Quote :

"With your obvious lack of basic math skills, I definitely wouldn't trust the <1%. How did you do these calculations? Right now we both know you're full of shit."

Nice retort. "You're full of shit." You crazy insurance salesmen crack me up. I graduated in comp sci, so I know a little thing or two about math. Before you get all excited about getting the chance to insult me again, statisticians wrote the calculator to do such calculations. It's just investment math.

Quote :

"What about if both of our investments are wiped out completely."

That's it. I'm tired of humoring this stupid scenario. It's not going to happen. Yes, I get it. I don't know the future. XYZ could occur. Blood could fall from the sky. Locusts could infest everything. Every fortune 500 company is not going to get wiped out. There. I said it. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!!!

5/5/2007 7:42:21 PM

Statisticians made the calculator. Cool. And what happens next year? The statistics will change. they'll continue to do so. That's why people don't bet on anything other than the near future. Well, people other than you I guess. The probability will change continuously between now and whatever event you're betting on. I guess that's another thing you are incapable of understanding.

And if you are planning on putting most of your money into cds and pulling the interest off them rather than letting them sit and grow, you're fucking retarded. Beyond that, what was your "income" from your cd last year? Did it equate to even a week's paycheck?

and my "writing comprehension"? Haven't heard that one before. Regardless, go ahead and check your dictionary for "an endless or seemingly endless period of time". Good try though.

When I type fast, I don't always pay attention to what's on the screen. Regardless, my spelling is well above your reading comprehension. Especially when I'm talking to someone that I really don't give a shit about. Hell, I'm amazed you even noticed them.

Good, I'm glad you're tired. I've outlined many scenarios that are quite possible and even border on PROBABLE (there you go since you like probability so much) that would make a dent in your savings at a minimum. You are just too fucking retarded to think for 2 seconds. Has anyone in your family ever had cancer? Have you never noticed what the cancer rates are for men? Have you noticed the rates of heart disease? But you're probably right. I'm SURE medicare/medicaid/health insurance will all be around and easy to obtain. Even better is that they'll probably cover all of the expenses.

Now, I think you're retarded. You think I'm stupid. We're not going to change each other's opinions. So let's just drop the whole damn thing and say "fuck off" and get on with our lives.

So, from me to you. Fuck off.

5/5/2007 9:03:52 PM

Quote :

"The statistics will change. they'll continue to do so. That's why people don't bet on anything other than the near future."

Ever hear of long term investments? Statistics will change year to year, but after you have 50+ years of sample data, the numbers won't change that much from year to year.

Quote :

"And if you are planning on putting most of your money into cds and pulling the interest off them rather than letting them sit and grow, you're fucking retarded."

Why? I needed the money in the near future so I used the interest earned thoughout the months and I will use the entire principle once it comes due.

Quote :

"I've outlined many scenarios that are quite possible and even border on PROBABLE (there you go since you like probability so much) that would make a dent in your savings at a minimum."

Yes. I'll have a large savings amassed, while you'll have a big whole life policy which won't help you too much until you die. Good job taking care of your family. You aren't worth shit to them until you're dead.

5/5/2007 9:19:07 PM

I'm in a bit of a pickle

My dad had a whole life insurance policy on me since I was a kid ( ). He handed it over to me, and I've been keeping up with it. It's ~$110/yr, so it's no big deal. The death benefit is ~$11,500 right now.

I can cash it in right now for ~$3000. Should I keep making payments on it or just take the cash and invest it? Did I (or my dad, rather) buy into it early enough so that it'll be worth-while to stay in it? $7,500 seems like a significant hit, even considering the fact that I could do a whole lot better than the interest rate of the policy (2.5%).

Also, I have an additional life insurance policy through my employer.

5/5/2007 9:33:31 PM

Quote :

"Yes. I'll have a large savings amassed, while you'll have a big whole life policy which won't help you too much until you die. Good job taking care of your family. You aren't worth shit to them until you're dead."

Thank you for once again demonstrating your 2nd grade reading comprehension. I have both, remember. We've been through this. So, if I'm not worth anything until my death, neither are you. Good argument. Again, you're retarded, you have no valid argument to show that I'm wrong, and you can't even comprehend basic math or reading. I'm trying to figure out why you're still trying. I've given many examples of why it's a good idea to have both while you have repeatedly tried to explain that you're right because of possibilities. You've admitted that you've already talked about things that you didn't have a clue about. You constantly ignore my arguments. You resort to picking out a misspelled word as argument (and yes, I have repeatedly pointed out your lack of reading comprehension. If you think they're the same then you need to go back to middle school. Misspelled words still get a point across. Not being able to read causes you to make arguments about shit that has been covered repeatedly). 50+ years of sample data mean shit. One year of the future is all that matters. If the future was so easy to figure out, where are the all of the casinos hiding their long term bets? Is there somewhere I can go and place a bet on next year's final four? Why not? there's a lot of sample data to put in there. Shit changes. Whether it's players on a team, value of the dollar vs. yen, government, or anything else. One change can make a huge impact on your investments and 1000 years of data won't mean shit. It's not a hard concept to grasp for anyone that's even slightly intelligent. Unfortunately, I'm arguing with a retard.

Seriously, fuck it. I give up. This is like arguing over politics with a 5 year old. You don't understand it and you're so convinced of your own (mistaken) intelligence that you can't even accept the possibility that you're wrong. I think you said that you have your insurance license, right? I'm assuming that it's a life/health license? Then do me a favor and go sell insurance. Learn a little bit about it. Get some first hand knowledge of how shit works. And THEN come back to me.

5/5/2007 11:19:08 PM

Boone, it really depends on the policy. I assume that you have the hard copy somewhere? You need to look through it and get the details. Find out how long you have to pay before it's fully matured. Do you need the money? The total amount isn't going to do anything but put you in the ground. That may be needed. Personally, I think you should at least discuss it with your parents before you do anything. It's not something people like to think about but if you were to pass and your parents are responsible for your services, can they afford it? (average burial in NC is around $8k). If not, are you sure that you will have some other coverage for as long as you feel you need it (i.e. your group policy through work for example)? It's really not an easy yes/no answer. Personally, if my parents didn't have a problem with it (after all, they got it for a reason and they put their own money in it), I would consider cashing it in and moving it to another policy that will actually be more useful. I cashed in one of my small policies and split the money up between a 6% savings account and a couple of cds. I earn interest and once a year pull money from the savings account to pay on a larger WL policy (old one was $25k, new one is $75k through a different company with better rates). I actually won't make a payment on it from "my" money for the next several years. Davidwhatever above will tell you to cash it in and invest it and drop your group policy from work too. After all, if you're not married, why do you need it? We'll just assume that $10k is easy for your parents to handle.

5/5/2007 11:31:57 PM

Boone. I would cash it in and put the $3,000 in a roth ira. If you keep it in there by the time you die you'll have well over $11,500 plus this way you won't have to keep making the monthly payments.

Quote :

"you have no valid argument to show that I'm wrong"

I'm not trying to prove you are wrong. I am trying to prove my way is better. A person who invests for retirement in nothing but cds isn't necessarily wrong. He won't lose any more. He'll earn interest, but does it make sense for someone to have a retirement portfolio made up of nothing but CDs? No. Of course not. You will eventually die and your policy will pay out. I can't disprove this.

Quote :

"50+ years of sample data mean shit."

Try telling that to Buffet and the rest of the world's billionaires.

Quote :

"Is there somewhere I can go and place a bet on next year's final four? Why not? there's a lot of sample data to put in there."

I can't even begin to understand what point you were trying to make here. You CAN place bets on who will make it to next year's final four.

Quote :

"Then do me a favor and go sell insurance. Learn a little bit about it. Get some first hand knowledge of how shit works. And THEN come back to me."

You've already said anyone with an iq over 80 can get his/her lisence, so don't try to make like it's a big deal that you have one and I don't.

5/5/2007 11:43:52 PM

bttt

7/18/2007 10:21:56 AM