natural selection will sort things out, trust me.

5/26/2007 3:19:00 AM

I can't wait to put my two cents in when I get a moment.

5/26/2007 8:43:31 AM

Quote :

" If he really is genetically predisposed to be fat then he really does have to work very hard to stay in shape on his own...then he would have sympathy cause he would understand how hard it is. He clearly doesn't understand because he has "no sympathy." He also does not understand what it's like to have a professional job that involves working 12 hours a day every day of the week...there's no room for "officer fitness" there..."

I wouldn't say I'm genetically predisposed to be a huge, raging fatass, but I would say that my "natural" weight is substantially on the fat side. I can gain weight very easily, and have a hard time staying lean. I don't know if I have "fat" genes, but I most definitely have at least "chubby" genes.

And yeah, I lift weights or run almost every day.

Also, clearly you are out of your mind if you think I don't know what it's like to work long hours. I'll go out on a limb here and say that I've had to work at levels that nobody else in this thread has ever experienced or probably even imagined. You're whining about 60 hours per week? That's only because you've been fortunate enough to never have to average 80-90 hours per week, just praying for an easy 60 hour week. You ever pulled all nighters for your job? You ever gone a week without eating anything but a rabbit's leg and couple slices of an orange--while hiking over mountains--for your job? You ever averaged 2 hours of sleep per night, even on weekends, for weeks on end for your job? It's not quite this severe all the time, but a 60 hour week is about the lightest schedule I've consistently experienced in the last 3 years. The only real exception (other than a 40-hour week scattered here or there) is when I'm in between training phases and they simply don't have anything for me to do...then I get some time either totally off or pretty close to it. That's only happened twice or maybe three times, though.


Your job will at least help keep you in shape in the military if you're, say, infantry. As as aviator, I'm on my own. The only thing the military has to do with it is that they can kick me out if I get fat (and the weight standards are pretty stringent), so that would be motivation if I needed it (which I don't).


Basically,

Quote :

"You CAN make time, you CHOOSE not to."

Quote :

"Life isn't fair. SO get the fuck over it and do what YOU need to do to stay healthy."

is the succinct way to sum up what i'm getting at.

[Edited on May 26, 2007 at 9:50 AM. Reason : asdf]

5/26/2007 9:48:04 AM

You only really need 30 minutes a day.

THIRTY FUCKING MINUTES A DAY.

Also, it takes no extra time to eat healthier foods.

5/26/2007 10:36:59 AM

Quote :

"when a fat person looses a lot of weight, it is easily gained back because these cells are used to being fat. The study showed that what happens when they are put on the diets is the cells shrink, but then they can quickly grow back if they person goes back to eating a lot. Look at the part of the study where they had normal weight people gain weight and then loose it. No problem for them."

Once again, this is NOT what the article says. In fact, the article clearly states that there is NO difference on a cellular level between thin people and formerly fat people who have starved. The difference is most likely in the hypothalamus or somewhere else in the brain, where appetite and metabolism are regulated.

Cells don't have a memory. That is spelled out clearly on the first page.

Someone who is genetically predisposed to being fat will have his/her metabolism slow down significantly if they do not obey their appetite. That, combined with constant hunger pangs, makes it doubly hard for a fat person to stay thin.

I'm speculating here. I've always been skinny, and I never understood why it was so hard for some others to be thin. This article makes a lot of sense.

5/26/2007 12:22:20 PM

Quote :

"You only really need 30 minutes a day. THIRTY FUCKING MINUTES A DAY. Also, it takes no extra time to eat healthier foods."

5/26/2007 12:26:22 PM

Here's my take on the situation. It is obvious that it is really easy for some people to stay in shape (we all know people who have amazing bodies but don't even know where the gym is) and that conversely, it is very difficult for other people to get/stay in shape (it sounds like Noen is one of these people.

But here is the plain and simple fact of the matter, anyone and everyone can get in shape and stay there. The level of effort might be a 10 by some and a 0 by others, but it can be done, it's just a matter of how much that person wants it.

By the same token, we all have things we are naturally good at, and we have things we naturally suck at. I hate the excuse that "I am fat because it's in my genes." We don't accept the "I am lazy because it's in my genes" excuse at work or the "I don't do well in academics because it's in my genes" excuse at school. No, people have to adapt and overcome their own particular weaknesses. Unfortunately losing weight can be a tough one, but it is still 100% attainable.

5/26/2007 12:50:42 PM

But if two people have the same activity level and the same diet, while one is overweight and the other in shape, should we praise the thin one for being in shape, while condemning the fat one for being lazy?

5/26/2007 1:12:04 PM

^

Quote :

"people have to adapt and overcome their own particular weaknesses. Unfortunately losing weight can be a tough one, but it is still 100% attainable."

5/26/2007 1:15:42 PM

^^ i don't know about praising the thin one, although it's a bottom line business and (s)he's meeting the bottom line.

but yes, we should condemn the fatbody. well, maybe try to help first (although still not sugarcoating the disgusting fatness)--and if he still won't get his shit together, then yeah, condemn him.

[Edited on May 26, 2007 at 2:01 PM. Reason : sadfsda]

5/26/2007 2:01:11 PM

I don't think we should condemn anyone if they practice good eating habits and exercise regularly. Being healthy is about diet and exercise, not having a good body.

5/26/2007 2:32:42 PM

i dont think anyone in this thread is condeming anyone that has a good diet and exercises...we are condemning the fat people that act like their genes are the reason they are fat, when in fact a lifestyle change is all they need

5/26/2007 2:58:55 PM

Quote :

"im not fat, at all, but some people may think 200 is a lot for a person who is 5'9-5'10"

I don't doubt you but you must have a large frame. I'm that height and weigh 160 but by no means look skinny at all since I've finally committed to going to the gym daily the last year I would say I'm pretty muscular. I don't see where I could put that much weight on (190-200) without just letting myself go and packing on a ton of fat..

5/26/2007 2:58:59 PM

Quote :

"I don't think we should condemn anyone if they practice good eating habits and exercise regularly. Being healthy is about diet and exercise, not having a good body."

I definitely disagree here. Yes, diet and exercise are great, but honestly if you are using the right combination of diet and exercise, then you should see results (ie a good body). Not only that, but a large person is NOT healthy from a structural standpoint. It's not good on your back to have to carry a lot of excess weight. Additionally, being overweight can lead to a lot of problems down the road (I am not a doctor so I am not even going to begin to get into them).

5/26/2007 3:07:54 PM

Quote :

"Being healthy is about diet and exercise, not having a good body."

it's about both. i don't mean a body that'll put you on the cover of Muscle & Fitness or something, but no matter how much you exercise and how good of a diet you eat, if you overeat and get fat, that's not healthy.

^^ i'll give him a solid "ehhhhh, maybe". I'm just a little shorter at 5'8", and at the best condition I've ever been in, I weighed about 183-185 (the summer after I graduated college...don't know if you really remember, Bryan). I benched 350, did 27 pull ups, ran 3 miles in 20 minutes flat, and had not exactly a ripped six-pack, but you could definitely see my abs. If I were 5'9-5'10, I would've easily weighed in the 190s, maybe 200 at 5'10".

Even now--well, until I did SERE school a couple of weeks ago and lost 14+ lbs--I weighed about 190-192, but I was by no means fat or even overweight. My abs weren't defined (although you could see them some if I reached my hands up, so I wasn't a fatass or anything), but my stomach was pretty much flat. I still benched a little over 300 and did 20-22 pull ups, and probably ran 3 miles in a slower (but not totally, fatbody out of shape) 23:00.

so yeah, it's certainly possible for someone 5'10" to weigh a very solid 200 lbs...but most 5'10" 200-pounders could probably stand to lose some.

[Edited on May 26, 2007 at 3:12 PM. Reason : ^^]

[Edited on May 26, 2007 at 3:13 PM. Reason : asdffsd]

5/26/2007 3:12:25 PM

I FUCKING HATE FAT PEOPLE

5/26/2007 3:17:17 PM

Putting someone on a 600 calorie per day diet is starving them, as it is putting them below their BMR. I'm not surprised that obese people who lost weight that way exhibited the symptoms of starvation.

I'd give this experiment more credibility if the the patients' BMR was used to determine their daily caloric needs for the entire duration of the study, thus preventing a wild drop in metabolism.

5/26/2007 3:46:48 PM

my buddy is 5'10 and about 200lbs. And he isn't in very good shape, but you would NEVER know it looking at him. He "look" about 170, but the kid is built like a fucking tank.

5/26/2007 4:55:39 PM

this is why height and weight (BMI Charts) are worthless

you can't accurately judge someone's health based on those two factors alone

5/26/2007 5:05:09 PM

they're not worthless

by themselves they are.

BMI is generally a good estimate of health

5/26/2007 5:13:42 PM

okay, maybe I should have stated that

but yes, by themselves they are worthless...combined with other testing they can be helpful

5/26/2007 5:17:39 PM

Quote :

"BMI is generally a good estimate of health"

you seriously have to be joking here. your credibility has been destroyed with this statement.

5/26/2007 5:30:08 PM

^^^ ehhh, probably statistically.

not necessarily accurate at all when applied to an individual case.

[Edited on May 26, 2007 at 6:35 PM. Reason : which might be what you're saying]

5/26/2007 6:34:49 PM

Aren't you a smoker, drunknloaded?

5/26/2007 6:36:49 PM

Quote :

"BMI is generally a good estimate of health"

get the fuck out of here with that noise

5/26/2007 6:40:05 PM

estimate isnt a bad word here. they give you a good insight into a lot of people. theres a lot of exceptions, but id be comfortable looking at one.

5/26/2007 7:08:01 PM

BMI is worthless. Completely and totally fucking worthless.

Now REAL measurements of Body fat (hydrostatic and even the shitty electrolytic crap) ARE good estimations of overall health.

If you want to measure how healthy someone is, have them do a VO2 max test, basic calesthenics tests (pushups, pullups, situps, reach) and check resting heart rate, blood pressure and cholesterol.

5/26/2007 7:41:27 PM

i'd say BMI is at least a starting point for macro-level, statistical analysis...like stats on the obesity of our population.

but yeah, it's totally worthless on an individual level.

5/26/2007 8:01:22 PM

Assuming people in here condemn fat people for health reasons, and not superficial reasons, which most of are claiming, shouldn't you hate smokers AT LEAST as much as fat people?

5/26/2007 8:10:59 PM

^^No, it's EVEN WORSE on a Macro level, because the BMI index was never mean't to be used for this. People don't even know where it came from

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolphe_Quetelet dude wasn't even a doctor and didn't use it to calculate people's health.

It's a COMPLETELY worthless statistic for health, because there is NO correlation between height, weight and health for a general population.

5/26/2007 8:36:43 PM

I'm a large person, always have been. I'm at my largest I've ever been in my entire life right now. And I don't expect any sympathy for my plight. I'm incredibly lazy, drink way too much, and eat too much...there are factors that contribute to those behaviors, but anyway...

I get bothered when other folks put down fat folks though because I have people in my life who I admire and respect who have been trying to lose weight their whole lives--really trying hard. I watch them work so hard at their jobs, do so much good for the community/for the world, and it kills me to think that folks would--what's the word theDuke used--CONDEMN them because they have so far been unsuccessful at controlling their weight.

Folks don't even try to understand. They're willfully ignorant when presented with science. And all because they have some need to condemn people.

[Edited on May 26, 2007 at 8:40 PM. Reason : V?]

5/26/2007 8:37:03 PM

i just think you need to get some dick...that would probably motivate you to lose weight cause you would get dick more often...plus fucking is a good little bit of exercise anyways

5/26/2007 8:38:53 PM

This is ridiculous.

Quote :

"Then the diet began. The only food permitted was a liquid formula providing 600 calories a day, a regimen that guaranteed they would lose weight."

If you start someone out starving, of course they're going to have signs of starvation.

Quote :

"Stunkard ended up with 540 adults whose average age was 40. They had been adopted when they were very young - 55 percent had been adopted in the first month of life and 90 percent were adopted in the first year of life. His conclusions, published in The New England Journal of Medicine in 1986, were unequivocal. The adoptees were as fat as their biological parents, and how fat they were had no relation to how fat their adoptive parents were. The scientists summarized it in their paper: "The two major findings of this study were that there was a clear relation between the body-mass index of biologic parents and the weight class of adoptees, suggesting that genetic influences are important determinants of body fatness; and that there was no relation between the body-mass index of adoptive parents and the weight class of adoptees, suggesting that childhood family environment alone has little or no effect.""

Commonality is not causality.

If you really want to be thin and you work on it, you will be. You might not be 5'9 and a size 0, but it's completely ridiculous to think that it's natural to be huge when you really take care of yourself.

5/26/2007 9:02:09 PM

Quote :

"You might not be 5'9 and a size 0, but it's completely ridiculous to think that it's natural to be huge when you really take care of yourself."

yep. not everyone has the genetics to be, say, a world-class athlete--there's only so much room at the top, and there people who DO have the genetics that are working as hard as anyone. it would be impossible for a large number of people no matter how hard they tried. however, there are only a very, very few people who have an excuse for being fat.

5/26/2007 9:11:40 PM

Quote :

"Assuming people in here condemn fat people for health reasons, and not superficial reasons, which most of are claiming, shouldn't you hate smokers AT LEAST as much as fat people?"

Yep, I can't fucking stand it. And I openly berate people I care about that do smoke.

Quote :

"I get bothered when other folks put down fat folks though because I have people in my life who I admire and respect who have been trying to lose weight their whole lives--really trying hard. I watch them work so hard at their jobs, do so much good for the community/for the world, and it kills me to think that folks would--what's the word theDuke used--CONDEMN them because they have so far been unsuccessful at controlling their weight. Folks don't even try to understand. They're willfully ignorant when presented with science. And all because they have some need to condemn people."

It's not that I condemn anyone. I just have NO SYMPATHY for them. I know what I go through to stay somewhat healthy, and fuck if I am giving ANYONE a free pass just because they have other priorities in life. Guess what? We all do.

You take care of yourself first, then you can take care of others that much better.

5/26/2007 9:25:06 PM

Quote :

"it's totally worthless on an individual level."

Worthless implies absolutely no use. It is generally satisfactory to use for the average individual to determine sedentary/fit individuals or underweight/overweight categories.

I've been training at the elite/professional level even training in Olympic prep facilities/camps. While we don't use BMI, I talk with the kinesiologists and our resident human performance consultants often. They themselves have used BMI on clients.

BMI is not useful for elite athletes or VERY athletic individuals, it's for average individuals which is the majority of the population.

I find it funny that Noen would call out BMI, when the WHO uses it as a statistical tool. It's generally effective and cheap.

I'm sorry that some of you think because you're outliers it's absolutely worthless.

[Edited on May 26, 2007 at 9:49 PM. Reason : .]

5/26/2007 9:40:57 PM

Quote :

"BMI is not useful for elite athletes or VERY athletic individuals, it's for average individuals which is the majority of the population. "

This is EXACTLY my point. It's not even for moderately athletic individuals.

As our country (and the world) becomes more FIT and HEALTHY, the BMI scales will show us becoming more and more obese. Which could be what is happening right now (though I doubt it) because there IS NO CORRELATION.

Of course you don't use BMI. Using BMI on a client would only work if they had an absolutely proto-typical body composition. If the client is stocky or lanky, tall or short, it's going to be pretty worthless.

The WHO does a lot of fucked up shit.

Quote :

"It is generally satisfactory to use for the average individual to determine sedentary/fit individuals or underweight/overweight categories."

Says who? How in the hell does BMI tell you ANYTHING about fitness or lifestyle? ALL it tells you is height to weight. A 6'2" 200lb male could be a computer jocky or an elite alpine skiier and there's absolutely NO differentiation from BMI.

It's a worthless metric. Because for ANY instance you can show me a correlation I can show you 100 instances where the correlation fails, just by giving different muscle compositions.

THERE IS NO CORRELATION.

5/27/2007 12:04:22 AM

My lack of sympathy for fatties stems from learning firsthand as a fatty myself that a little fucking effort and willpower does in fact pay off. That someone who has blamed everything in the book for reasons why they can't lose weight can suddenly drop all the lame excuses, get some responsibility and actually try to get thin, healthy.

All those previous attempts at losing weight were awful, maybe I did want to lose weight but clearly that desire was not enough to keep me from gaining. Something inside of me clicked and I am done with being that fat person. I see it is possible to lose weight, get great cardiovascular health, choose healthy foods that will fuel my body, and live a great life even though half a year ago I thought I was destined to be fat, it was my shitty metabolism, genetics, my mom and grandmother are fat.

I don't believe that bullshit when some other fatty jibbers on about those type of excuses. Does that mean I will cut a large person out of my life? Not give them the time of day? Of course not, people are worth more than their outsides. Losing weight has been a life changing battle from me, the personal wisdom, inner strength, the evolution I have seen in myself since starting all this is proof enough for me, if I can do it so can everyone else it just depends on how badly you want it.

Guess that makes me a bitch.

5/27/2007 12:24:52 AM

Quote :

"As our country (and the world) becomes more FIT and HEALTHY, the BMI scales will show us becoming more and more obese."

Um, wtf? That made no sense.

Quote :

"How in the hell does BMI tell you ANYTHING about fitness or lifestyle?"

A recent (2006) study on BMI and sedentary lifestyle.

"Our findings suggest that a high BMI is a determinant of a sedentary lifestyle but did not provide unambiguous evidence for an effect of sedentary lifestyle on weight gain."

In other words, a high BMI is a risk factor for sedentary lifestyle. We use risk factors all the time in analysis sports science & medicine.

http://www.obesityresearch.org/cgi/content/abstract/14/8/1462

Quote :

"Using BMI on a client would only work if they had an absolutely proto-typical body composition. If the client is stocky or lanky, tall or short, it's going to be pretty worthless."

I don't think you give the BMI enough credit. It's not pinpoint accurate, but it has a relatively broad range.

[Edited on May 27, 2007 at 12:32 AM. Reason : .]

5/27/2007 12:30:06 AM

^^

[Edited on May 27, 2007 at 12:31 AM. Reason : v how the hell is she a hypocrite?]

5/27/2007 12:30:58 AM

^^^ don't forget hypocrite

[Edited on May 27, 2007 at 12:31 AM. Reason : ]

5/27/2007 12:31:01 AM

AndyMac is just trolling.

5/27/2007 12:34:17 AM

Yeah, I kind of am.

But also kind of not. I think it's funny how she has been overweight most of her life, has tried multiple weight loss schemes, and has finally found a diet that works for her, which is good, I'm happy for her. But now comes in and starts talking shit about all fat people, how many of them haven't found that diet that works for them? "if I can do it so can everyone else" How can she presume she speaks for everyone? I guess it's impossible that people actually try hard to lose weight and don't succeed.

BTW, it's funny to me that after being on this diet for a few months, she now thinks that it is out of the realm of possibility for her to ever gain weight again.

[Edited on May 27, 2007 at 12:42 AM. Reason : man, I'm tired]

5/27/2007 12:41:13 AM

She'll be fat again. For sure.

She's got the perfect attitude for a refatty.

5/27/2007 12:53:58 AM

Quote :

" Does that mean I will cut a large person out of my life? Not give them the time of day? Of course not, people are worth more than their outsides."

yeah, that's not at all what i was suggesting.

i'm just saying that it's bullshit how much our society accepts being overweight.

Unfuck your weak, flaccid bodies, America.


And quit being so fucking stupid, too.

[Edited on May 27, 2007 at 12:55 AM. Reason : asdf]

5/27/2007 12:54:14 AM

^Then you should say that about America instead of saying that you condemn fat people. If you really do condemn fat folks, I think it would be super awesome of you to go tell your "chubby" family that.

("Quit being so fucking stupid, too?" Why don't you wear a condom when you're fucking women you want nothing to do with for the rest of your life? Seriously, where the fuck do you get off behaving irresponsibly for the bulk of your adolescence and then turning around and "condemning" fat folks as stupid?)

[Edited on May 27, 2007 at 1:02 AM. Reason : You're not old enough to call it a "youthful indiscretion" yet.]

5/27/2007 12:55:51 AM

Ok first of all, this diet change is called "Stop eating bad fucking food". Something simple everyone can do, I did some research, found out what the body needs to run smoothly, changed fast food runs to nights cooking in. Pretty simple diet. Maybe I counted calories at first just to get an idea, but I don't count anything now. I do check all the nutrition labels on all the food I buy and put back what's unacceptable in my "diet".

Secondly, i am exercising. I go to the gym and sweat my ass off, something people have been recommending for years as the best way to lose weight! not some new tech zap the fat with tiny electrodes.


Thirdly, it's not a diet, it's a life change. things are different when the "diet" becomes a permanent staple in your life. Since I am changing my ways for good and am motivated and dedicated enough to NEVER go back to the way I was before, i think my opinion will carry a little more weight than the typical bandwagon dieter.

I am different from the person I was six months ago. This change is permanent. I will tell you that what has convined me to stay this way for the rest of my life, to work as hard as I do to get in shape, is the feeling I get in being healthy. I can't explain the difference it makes but my body, my machine, the only thing I've got in this world, feels completely different, free, light. My insides have never been better and why should I treat myself so poorly by becoming lazy and making poor food choices? If I want to take care of others, be responsible, I have to first start with myself and letting go with my weight, my health, shows none of that.

Maybe we'll call this "growing up".

5/27/2007 12:56:00 AM

^I didn't read your bullshit. Maybe you should write a book or something. I'm sure people would love to read a former fat person put down "fatties."

5/27/2007 1:00:25 AM

^She's not putting down fat people. She thinks that MOST PEOPLE WILL NOT BE SO FAT IF THEY MAINTAIN A HEALTHY DIET.



You would not be nearly as defensive if you weren't self-described as a "big person."

[Edited on May 27, 2007 at 1:03 AM. Reason : v ok, that one was slightly uncalled for ]

5/27/2007 1:02:25 AM

K

Maybe one day you'll read it and get off your fat fucking ass. Or maybe you'll die of a heart attack at 30.

[Edited on May 27, 2007 at 1:05 AM. Reason : I'm tired of her pathetic trolling, I give up]

5/27/2007 1:03:00 AM