Quote :

"I disagree. Their [Mormon] beliefs are nutty, but they don't cause their followers to harm their own health, or others'. "

how about the psychological trauma of their ever-impending threat of complete and total
excommunication from the church and all friends and family, as punishment for committing
any one of a number of unforgivable sins..

unforgivable sins like, you know, the really heinous shit:

- expressing doubt about the correctness of Mormon Doctrine
- questioning the accuracy or antiquity of the Book of Mormon.
- disagreeing with and/or disobeying orders or proclamations of Mormon leaders.
- being a homosexual.
- being a feminist (you know, suggesting that men and women should have equal rights)
- having pre-marital intercourse (blowjobs are ok, though)
- and so on...

Excommunication totally fucks up lives. you are essentially ostracised from all of
your friends and families, and told in no uncertain terms that you are bound for hell,
along with anyone who chooses to continue to associate with you (i.e., your spouse
and your children!).

so many articles about Mormon Excommunication and Disfellowshipping due to
a member having incorrect beliefs. heres a few:

http://mormonalliance.org/casereports/volume2/part4/v2p4e.htm
http://www.lds-mormon.com/myexcommunication.shtml
http://www.i4m.com/think/grant_palmer.htm
http://kutv.com/topstories/local_story_197205005.html


yeah, its a fucking cult.






[Edited on June 4, 2007 at 1:14 AM. Reason : ]

6/4/2007 1:03:43 AM

even I agree with Joe here, that says something.

6/4/2007 1:09:22 AM

^ holy shit. dogs and cats living together. the world is coming to an end




[Edited on June 4, 2007 at 1:16 AM. Reason : oops : beatup :]

6/4/2007 1:12:21 AM

Quote :

"how about the psychological trauma of their ever-impending threat of complete and total excommunication from the church and all friends and family, as punishment for committing any one of a number of unforgivable sins.. unforgivable sins like, you know, the really heinous shit: - expressing doubt about the correctness of Mormon Doctrine - questioning the accuracy or antiquity of the Book of Mormon. - disagreeing with and/or disobeying orders or proclamations of Mormon leaders. - being a homosexual. - being a feminist (you know, suggesting that men and women should have equal rights) - having pre-marital intercourse (blowjobs are ok, though) - and so on... "

These are things typical of all religions. The only reason mainstream Christianity isnt considered as socially whacko as mormon-ism is because mainstream Christians are defined by hypocrisy. If Christians actually had any fortitude of their beliefs, they'd be far more whacky than the mormons.

If you judge them by their actions, mormonism is by far one of the most productive religions in America. They were the largest group, other than the Red Cross, to house people after Hurricane Katrina for example, they were one of the first groups in the area, and were probably one of the largest donors of supplies of food and supplies to the new Orleans area.

How often do you hear about mormon religious leaders spout off a bunch of anti-social rhetoric, anywhere? They actually do the opposite (the LDS commercials) with no religious strings attached.

Quote :

"Excommunication totally fucks up lives. you are essentially ostracised from all of your friends and families, and told in no uncertain terms that you are bound for hell, along with anyone who chooses to continue to associate with you (i.e., your spouse and your children!). so many articles about Mormon Excommunication and Disfellowshipping due to a member having incorrect beliefs. heres a few: http://mormonalliance.org/casereports/volume2/part4/v2p4e.htm http://www.lds-mormon.com/myexcommunication.shtml http://www.i4m.com/think/grant_palmer.htm http://kutv.com/topstories/local_story_197205005.html yeah, its a fucking cult. "

All religions have their problems, and you could call them all cults, and cherry pick evidence to prove it. I'm not arguing with you there.

But as far as religions go, from what I've seen of actual mormons, I would much rather the country be over run with them, than the short-sighted, weak-minded, hypocritical Christians mainstream society and politics is inundated with.

6/4/2007 3:18:42 AM

while i appreciate your general skepticism re: Christianity... you apparently don't know much about Mormonism or the the accepted professional and academic definition of cults.

and FWIW, Church of Scientology gave some significant amounts of money and supplies to Katrina victims and other disaster victims (Tsunami of '04, for instance), as well as regularly promote drug/alcohol rehabilitation outreach programs for low income inner city people.... So lets put the Scientologists in charge of some federal shit, right?

Quote :

"moron : These are things typical of all religions."

sorry, but these things are NOT typical of any religions. they're typical of cults. typical as in "defining characteristics"

no mainstream christian denomination claims to have the "sole path to God" apart from all other denominations, and then will excommunicate you from all churches in their entire denomination across the world, sentence you to burn in hell, and forbid all your family and friends from associating with you under pain of their own excommunication -- for merely questioning the accuracy or antiquity of the doctrines or scriptures, or disputing something said by an elder.

Mainstream Christian denoms actually and actively *encourage* questioning and debate. of course if you just cant get over some aspect or another particular to their denomination or church, you're going to probably leave on your own accord and find a denomination or church more suited to your belief sets. but the Baptists don't say the Methodists are gonna burn in hell, just because they question some aspect of the Baptismal ritual, or have a diverging opinion on the doctrine of Scriptural Inerrancy, for instance.





[Edited on June 4, 2007 at 4:37 AM. Reason : ]

6/4/2007 4:09:35 AM

of course, the Christians' patience and tolerance only goes so far ... take me for instance. i used to be part of a mainstream Christian church, but i "just couldn't get over" some of their doctrines.

you know, like the whole God thing, and the Jesus thing, and the Virgin Mary thing, and the Miracles thing, and the Resurrection thing, and the whole Satan's-gonna-burn-my-ass-in-Hell thing...

so I left on my own accord. but I'm sure if i would have stuck around to argue these things for too much longer, they woulda told me to beat it.




[Edited on June 4, 2007 at 4:56 AM. Reason : ]

6/4/2007 4:51:31 AM

Quote :

"while i appreciate your general skepticism re: Christianity... you apparently don't know much about Mormonism or the the accepted professional and academic definition of cults. "

I don't know much about mormonism, except that i don't recall hearing about mormons suing anyone over the teaching of evolution or decrying stem cell research on the basis of their religious beliefs, and that Ken Jennings was a mormon, and a guy I know who went to New Orleans after Katrina said that the mormons were the largest and most helpful group of people there, and that the mormons were the first church to put out those commercials about being a good person.

2 of those stories you posted about excommunication were about people who had practically left the church already, the lady in the first one should have seen it coming, and the 3rd guy was done wrong. I still am not convinced that the mormons are so heavy handed that they deserve special criticism above other religions.

If you question the teachings of your church, any church is going to make you feel unwelcome. You don't lose your friends though not because the church itself is more accepting, but typical Christians don't take their religious beliefs seriously. I don't think you should credit main-stream christianity with being more free because it encourages hypocrisy, but chastise mormonism because they require actual commitment.

I wouldn't encourage anyone to join any organized religion, but from what i've seen, if they chose mormonism, they'd be much less likely to stick their icky religious fingers in to my politics or social structures.

This is different from scientologists because they strongly advocate staying away from medical care, when you need it, and want others to do the same.

6/4/2007 2:08:29 PM

just for starters, you've confused Scientology with Christian Science ... and you're mischaracterizing C.S. when you suggest that they would seek to impose their faith healing views on non members.

with all due respect, i think you're quite well-informed on a number of subjects, but I've got to say that Mormonism, and the nature of cults as distinct from religions isn't one of them.

6/4/2007 4:19:11 PM

Quote :

"If you question the teachings of your church, any church is going to make you feel unwelcome"

disagree. I grew up going to southern baptist churches, and i can barely imagine that scenario. it would take some really wild scenario for someone to have been driven out or purposefully made to feel unwelcome in those churches.

6/4/2007 5:37:59 PM

i grew up in a southern baptist church too. my experience is the same as Duke's ^.

and ive been to a number of other churches over the years some more fundamentalist, some less so.

all of them (southern baptist, american baptist, methodist, lutheran, disciples of christ, etc., etc., ad nauseum) the members, layity and full ministers would totally spend as much time as you wanted discussing any aspect of the faith. you could disagree all night long, and if at the end you couldnt agree, you could agree to disagree.

Hells Bells, you could even say that you didnt really believe that Jesus was the Son of God, and if you kept coming back, you'd always be welcome. i cant imagine why such a person would want to come back, but still...

what you would never get was a letter from the Elders saying that since you missed your "Church Court" date, they were informing you that you had been "found guilty" and were no longer welcome.

6/4/2007 8:10:55 PM

Quote :

"just for starters, you've confused Scientology with Christian Science ... and you're mischaracterizing C.S. when you suggest that they would seek to impose their faith healing views on non members. "

No, i was talking about scientology. Didn't Tom Cruise go on the Today show and talk about how you shouldn't take medicine for psychological conditions (harping against ritalin and stuff)? And there was some story a while back about some scientologist going nuts a killing himself because he was told not to take his medicine. I should have specified psychiatric medication. I think their mistrust for medicine would apply to other areas as well, but I don't know for certainty.

^ and the guy that missed his "court date" there had not considered himself an active member for a while before being officially excommunicated it. He fully expected that outcome, and specifically chose not to go. He wasn't forced out against his will.

6/5/2007 1:50:39 AM

okay, points noted. good comeback.

truthfully, Mormonism is a religion that is dangerously close to the line where academics and professionals characterize the diff between cults and religions.

probably a majority of academics will grant Mormons the benefit of the doubt and not relegate them to cult status. but the deciding factor is often due to political considerations, because it really is damn close. close enough that a sizable minority of religious scholars continue to make a pretty good case for them being more like a cult

i tend to be swayed by the latter group. you apparently prefer the former. at this point all we have left to do is descend into pedantic debate, and try not to bore the onlookers. I can agree to disagree.


(but for the record, excommunication proceedings not uncommon, and many people get them even though they strive to be "good mormons". but they run afoul of some doctrinal point or another. and so they get sent to hell, along with their family, unless their family renounces them.... okay, okay, i'll stop. )



[Edited on June 5, 2007 at 4:13 AM. Reason : ]

6/5/2007 4:10:41 AM

Quote :

"the GOP finally found there guy. i think he's pretty much unbeatable."

THEIR

6/5/2007 7:41:18 AM

Quote :

"what you would never get was a letter from the Elders saying that since you missed your "Church Court" date, they were informing you that you had been "found guilty" and were no longer welcome."

I did. And if anyone has questions as to why I despise Mormonism and could never vote for a Mormon, please ask of me.

6/5/2007 8:41:47 AM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/04/AR2007060401379.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

Quote :

"Can He Find His Motivation? By Richard Cohen Tuesday, June 5, 2007; A17 Some years ago I ran into Fred Thompson at Washington's Reagan National Airport and had a chat with him as we waited for a (very) delayed flight. I found him to be affable and nice -- good company, if you want to know -- but I cannot remember a single thing he said. Alas, it is about the same with his Senate career. If Thompson's name came up in some sort of free-association game, he would be a genuine stumper: Thompson and what? There is no Thompson Act, Thompson Compromise, Thompson Hearing, Thompson Speech or Thompson Anything that comes to mind. No living man can call himself a Thompsonite. Instead, Thompson came and went from the Senate as if he were never there, leaving only the faint scent of ennui. "I don't want to spend the rest of my life up here," he once said. "I don't like spending 14- and 16-hour days voting on 'sense of the Senate' resolutions on irrelevant matters." As a call to action, this lacks a certain something. Such a sentiment may be the telltale tick of a normal man. But the presidency that Thompson now seeks is won not by the normal, the average, the ordinary, but by people fueled by an explosive combination of overriding ambition and charming megalomania. The world needs them, they are convinced. God wants them, they have been told. The country calls; they answer and march smartly into history. This is the stuff of parody (and I exaggerate a bit), but you don't get to be president by waiting for others to ask -- unless you are the son of one. Let us not repeat that mistake. Thompson is often likened to Ronald Reagan. In fact, if you couple "Thompson" with "Reagan" and do a data search of newspapers, you will be inundated with quotes, observations and references -- nearly 1,000 of them in the past month alone. The similarities are obvious -- both tall, good-looking men, personable and, most important, actors. The conclusion is supposed to be almost inescapable: If Reagan the actor could become president, why not Thompson the actor? If the host of TV's "General Electric Theater" could do it, why not District Attorney Arthur Branch of "Law & Order"? For all I know, this is precisely what will happen. Yet, that possibility ought to give us some pause. Reagan, you might remember, went from show business to politics, while Thompson has gone the other way. He went from being bored in the Senate to waiting around a movie set so he could mouth words written by others -- maybe not all that different from the Senate, when you think about it. If there is a passion, an overriding sense of purpose in Fred Thompson, it is not apparent from his record. More apparent, clearly, is that he lacks any such thing. Here is where he is so different from Reagan and why the comparison is wrong. Reagan was an ideologue. He had converted from New Deal liberalism to Barry Goldwater and Bill Buckley conservatism. It animated his life or, if not that, then at least his political career. He had a deadly serious reason for going into politics, and it was not, as it seemed to some at the time, a continuation of showbiz by other means. This is why he sought and won the California governorship, and after two terms, he ran for the presidency -- losing the first time out. By then he was no more an actor than Arnold Schwarzenegger is a competitive bodybuilder. Reagan had transformed himself. He was the dominant politician of the conservative moment. He was no pretty face. Neither is Thompson, in all fairness. Yet he indisputably lacks the passion, the concern, the fire-in-the-bellydom that Reagan had -- not just for winning but about issues themselves. Thompson never showed that he was out to change matters, to right some major wrong, to fix the god-awful mess the country is in. I contrast him with a senator I recently chatted with who took virtually childlike delight in being a senator -- being able, as he said, to be a player. He savored his power -- as one of only 100. What a difference he could make! The presidency is where a person can make the most difference. But the emergence of Thompson shows that a fatigued Republican Party is not interested in making any difference at all -- just in hanging on. What commends Thompson to the presidency -- the only thing anyone ever mentions -- is his TV fame. If that's all it takes, Thompson can look forward to being more than a president. He'll be an American Idol. "

6/5/2007 10:19:12 AM

wow !!! did i just read a letter of a dude being kicked out of his religion. that's fucked up.

6/5/2007 11:41:35 AM

^^ That article sums up why some people like Thompson. Of course, the author probably would never understand why that is.

6/5/2007 12:18:15 PM

Quote :

" probably a majority of academics will grant Mormons the benefit of the doubt and not relegate them to cult status. but the deciding factor is often due to political considerations, because it really is damn close. close enough that a sizable minority of religious scholars continue to make a pretty good case for them being more like a cult i tend to be swayed by the latter group. you apparently prefer the former. at this point all we have left to do is descend into pedantic debate, and try not to bore the onlookers. I can agree to disagree. "

I can agree to disagree on this issue, with the stipulation that you don't make final judgement on people JUST because they're mormon. Other than that, I have no problem with you calling them a cult. As far as i'm concerned, most religions have strong cult leanings. I use to be very religious, and looking back on those years, I can point to specific instances where my behavior was altered in a way that negatively impacted by life. This was only though because I was actually very obedient in general.

6/5/2007 12:37:40 PM

i used to think he was Vigo the Carpathian from Ghostbusters II

6/5/2007 1:22:18 PM

he would be a good VP.....kinda like Cheney

6/5/2007 7:02:53 PM

If a religion being strict is the definition of a cult, then I guess you can say catholicism, mormonism, and even the church of england (foundation for all protestant beliefs) are cults.

Big Deal. Its pretty obvious that these people, and nutsmacker, had no desire to be a part of the mormon church, so receiving those letters shouldn't come as a surprise.

Anyone who "wants" to be a part of the mormon church and disobeys the teachings can stay a member if they DESIRE to be obedient.

6/6/2007 8:20:30 AM

the difference between religion and cult is the number of followers

6/6/2007 9:58:57 AM

*and the ridiculousness of their views.

6/6/2007 10:00:05 AM

^^ there are more mormons than Presbyterian, Lutheran

[Edited on June 6, 2007 at 12:16 PM. Reason : .]

6/6/2007 12:11:28 PM

Quote :

"church of england (foundation for all protestant beliefs) "

Uhh.. no

Quote :

"more mormons than Presbyterian, Lutheran"

Practicing? Maybe... but I highly doubt that if you count the Christmas/Easter nominal Christians.

[Edited on June 6, 2007 at 1:54 PM. Reason : .]

6/6/2007 1:53:03 PM

Fun fact, if anyone hasn't noticed, all of the Law & Order episodes on TNT these past few weeks have featured every executive DA except fred dalton thompson, or the episodes where he isn't featured

6/6/2007 2:44:45 PM

^^ those stats were actually found from members on record. Thats about as official as you can ask for. Surprising isnt it.

^ I was watching one I think on monday, and Fred Thompson was definitely the DA in that episode. (but they lost the trial, so maybe they are trying to only show episodes where he doesnt shine)

[Edited on June 6, 2007 at 4:07 PM. Reason : .]

6/6/2007 4:05:41 PM

Weird, because all the ones I've seen in prime time have featured the female DA or the old guy before her.

6/6/2007 11:59:58 PM

...Another hallmark of cultists is that they lie about details of their cult.

Quote :

"robster: there are more mormons than Presbyterian, Lutheran stats were actually found from members on record. Thats about as official as you can ask for. Surprising isnt it. "

AMERICAN RELIGIOUS IDENTIFICATION STUDY (ARIS)
Graduate Center of the City University of New York, 2001

         TOTAL U.S. ADULT
          POPULATION 18+                1990 = 175,440,000     2001=207,980,000

                                               1990                 2001
Christian Religious Groups                    Number   %          Number     % 
Catholic                                    46,004,000          50,873,000  24.5
Baptist                                     33,964,000          33,830,000  16.3
Protestant - no denomination supplied       17,214,000           4,647,000   2.2
Methodist/Wesleyan                          14,174,000          14,150,000   6.8
Lutheran                                     9,110,000           9,580,000   4.6
Christian - no denomination supplied         8,073,000          14,190,000   6.8
Presbyterian                                 4,985,000           5,596,000   2.7
Pentecostal/Charismatic                      3,191,000           4,407,000   2.1
Episcopalian/Anglican                        3,042,000           3,451,000   1.7
Mormon/Latter-Day Saints                     2,487,000           2,787,000   1.3
Churches of Christ                           1,769,000           2,503,000   1.2
Jehovah's Witness                            1,381,000           1,331,000   0.6
Seventh-Day Adventist                          668,000             724,000   0.3
Assemblies of God                              660,000           1,106,000   0.5
Holiness/Holy                                  610,000             569,000   0.3
Congregational/United Church of Christ         599,000           1,378,000   0.7
Church of the Nazarene                         549,000             544,000   0.3
Church of God                                  531,000             944,000   0.5
Orthodox (Eastern)                             502,000             645,000
Evangelical                                    242,000           1,032,000   0.5
Mennonite                                      235,000             346,000
Christian Science                              214,000             194,000
Church of the Brethren                         206,000             358,000
Born Again                                     204,000              56,000
Nondenominational                              195,000           2,489,000   1.2
Disciples of Christ                            144,000             492,000
Reformed/Dutch Reform                          161,000             289,000
Apostolic/New Apostolic                        117,000             254,000
Quaker                                          67,000             217,000
Full Gospel                                     51,000             168,000
Christian Reform                                40,000              79,000
Foursquare Gospel                               28,000              70,000
Fundamentalist                                  27,000              61,000
Salvation Army                                  27,000              25,000
Independent Christian Church                    25,000              71,000

TOTAL Christian                             151,225,00  86.2   159,030,000  76.5

6/7/2007 5:46:26 AM

wow ... 2001 .. nice stats. Here is the first thing I could find for 2007 stats.

"The American Religious Identification Survey (ARIS) 2001 was based on a random digit-dialed telephone survey of 50,281 American residential households in the continental U.S.A (48 states)"

http://www.ncccusa.org/news/070305yearbook2007.html

The 2007 Yearbook reports the largest 25 denominations/communions in the U.S. (noting an increase or decrease in membership since the 2006 Yearbook reports).

1. The Catholic Church, 69,135,254 members, reporting an increase of 1.94 percent.

2. The Southern Baptist Convention, 16,270,315 members, reporting a increase of .02 percent.

3. The United Methodist Church, 8,075,010 members, reporting a decrease of 1.36 percent.

4. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 5,690,672 members, reporting an increase of 1.63 percent.

5. The Church of God in Christ, 5,499,875 members, no increase or decrease reported.

6. National Baptist Convention, USA, Inc., 5,000,000 members, no increase or decrease reported.

7. Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, 4,850,776, reporting a decrease of 1.62 percent.

8. National Baptist Convention of America, 3,500,000, no increase or decrease reported.

9. Presbyterian Church (USA), 3,098,842 members, reporting a decrease of 2.84 percent.

10. Assemblies of God, 2,830,861 members, reporting an increase of 1.86 percent.

11. African Methodist Episcopal Church, 2,500,000 members, no increase or decrease reported.

12. National Missionary Baptist Convention of America, 2,500,000 members, no increase or decrease reported.

13. Progressive National Baptist Convention, Inc., 2,500,000 members, no increase or decrease reported.

14. The Lutheran Church – Missouri Synod (LCMS), 2,440,864, reporting a decrease or .93 percent.

15. Episcopal Church, 2,247,819, reporting a decrease of 1.59 percent.

16. Churches of Christ, 1,639,495 members, reporting an increase of 9.30 percent (This increase reports the church's growth since its last reported figures in 1999.)

17. Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, 1,500,000 members, no increase or decrease reported.

18. Pentecostal Assemblies of the World, Inc., 1,500,000 members, no increase or decrease reported.

19. The African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church, 1,440,405 members, reporting an increase of .53 percent.

20. American Baptist Churches in the USA, 1,396,700, reporting a decrease of 1.97 percent.

21. United Church of Christ, 1,224,297, reporting a decrease of 3.28 percent.

22. Baptist Bible Fellowship International, 1,200,000, no increase or decrease reported.

23. Christian Churches and Churches of Christ, 1,071,615 members, no increase or decrease reported.

24. The Orthodox Church in America, 1,064,000 members, no increase or decrease reported.

25. Jehovah's Witnesses, 1,046,006 members, reporting an increase of 1.56 percent.



[Edited on June 7, 2007 at 10:25 AM. Reason : .]

6/7/2007 10:10:31 AM

^*as reported by the churches themselves.

6/7/2007 10:47:01 AM

Why are you are measuring the number of Mormons against individual Protestant denominations? Few Christians, Protestants and Catholics alike, consider Mormons Christians. A more reasonable comparison would be either Mormons vs. Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, etc. or Mormons vs. Protestants, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, etc. depending on which classification you choose for LDS.

Comparing against individual Protestant denominations is a bit silly if you are talking about followers of a particular religion.



Either way, I would think most of you would be far more troubled by Romney's apparent lack of principles than his being Mormon (apparently the only position he hasn't flipped in the last two years).

6/7/2007 11:20:56 AM

Can we get a L&O *doink doink* up in here?

*exits SP*

6/7/2007 1:26:28 PM

^^^^ There is nothing wrong with the ARIS sampling method. its is the standard statistical method for polling, and combined with their very large sample population (50,000+ rather than typical political polls of 1,043) it has a VERY LOW error margin.

Quote :

"POPULATION ESTIMATES In order to accurately reflect a true statistical portrait of the United States the raw survey data are weighted by ICR Survey Research Group using the latest Census Bureau statistics, to reflect the known composition of U.S. households and the total population. The weighting that is incorporated into each record takes into account the disproportionate probabilities of household projection due to the number of separate telephone lines and the probability associated with the random selection of an individual household member. Following application of the above weights, the sample is post-stratified and balanced by key demographics such as age, sex, region and education. However, weighting cannot compensate for characteristics that are neither geographic nor demographic in nature. The most obvious is an inability to communicate in English. This means there may be a tendency to underestimate some of the smaller religious groups that contain a high proportion of recent immigrants. Nevertheless, the range of error will not be very large even in these cases. The sampling error in the survey is 0.5% for the overall sample of 50,000 and 1% for the sub-sample of 17,000. http://www.gc.cuny.edu/faculty/research_briefs/aris/appendix.htm "

its very disingenuous for you to suggest that the methodology is flawed, especially in favor of a survey that asks church leadership to report how many people are on their rolls.

talk about a bogus study. American Baptists = 5,000,000 members. no increase or decrease reported. wow. thats pretty neat-o. hangin' out at an even 5 mil.

and by the way, do you even realize there are a number of Lutheran denominations? Missouri Synod is only one of them. Do you realize there are a number of Methodist denominations? UMC is only one of them. it goes on and on, ad retardum.

as for your 5 million LDS members, which contradicts every other poll that indicates more like 2 million... I'd be willing to bet they're including the Baptism by Proxy that your cult/church regularly performs on non-members without their knowledge or consent.

Any religion that surreptitiously "baptizes" dead Jews in ceremonies without their families knowledge or consent, and then records them as Mormon... well, sorry if i dont believe anything your crazy cult has to say about their own membership rolls.

http://www.google.com/search?q=proxy+baptism







[Edited on June 7, 2007 at 1:50 PM. Reason : ]

6/7/2007 1:48:22 PM

You are a retard ... They do not count dead people as members. And if they did, it would probably be higher than that of the catholics

Really though, who's fault is it that the sects cant agree on doctrine.

I'm just pointing it out as such.

So when I ask someone what religion they are, I should always just expect them to say "Christian"??
My neighbor never called himself a *Christian Preacher* but rather a Presbyterian Minister. He says the doctrines are different enough that there is a real need to have separate sects, so I say we should all respect them as such also.

Anyhow... This did all start with Fred THompson .. maybe bickering about religious stats is more interesting, I dunno.

My point was that there aren't quite as few mormons as people might expect, and so I was trying to help people have a better perspective about how *few* mormons there are by comparing religions/sects/cults whatever you want to call them that people around here are more familiar with.

[Edited on June 7, 2007 at 2:07 PM. Reason : .]

6/7/2007 2:02:03 PM

everybody's carving out an empire

6/7/2007 2:04:33 PM

Quote :

"Can we get a L&O *doink doink* up in here? *exits SP*"

http://blog.rickbreslin.com/extras/doink_doink.wav

6/7/2007 2:07:46 PM

thank you god

6/7/2007 2:09:09 PM

Quote :

"robster: You are a retard"

did you learn that argumentative device in your Temple classes?

or did you just pick that one up on your own to cover your inability to make a coherent response.

at any rate I'll give you this:

ARIS counts the people who only identify themselves as members of _______ church

your citation includes the people who ______ church keeps hassling to come back to them.

apparently the biggest % gap of self-identified members vs. church identified members seems to be in the LDS/Mormon church.

big surprise.

Quote :

" Pollster: Excuse me sir, I'm taking survey. What religion are you? Man in Street: Who me? I don't go to church. I'm basically agnostic. Bishop Smith: Oh hell noes. He's a Mormon! See, I got papers right here!! Man in Street: Go away you freak. "

6/7/2007 2:59:02 PM

isnt Thompson about 6'5" 250?

also Im starting to think he's got a better chance

Look at Reagan, Arnold, Jesse the Body, etc

6/7/2007 3:01:28 PM

^^ or the biggest increase in membership over the gap from 2001 to 2007.

... Either way, wasn't the point that was trying to be made.

6/7/2007 3:15:01 PM

^ sorry aint buyin it. Mormons have been flatlined throughout most of modern US history as 1-2% of the population. they dont just double their proportional representation overnight

6/7/2007 3:27:50 PM

well if catholics and every other religion in that list can claim people that dont really go to church, but are members of record, then so can the mormons. Its a fair representation of the membership, and definately more accurate than a poll of 50000 people.

I dont think they grew that much either, I just think the first poll was flat wrong, and old, so I choose to believe the newer information that compares the churchs all based on what they have on their membership roles, not a poll.

6/7/2007 3:35:56 PM

Quote :

"well if catholics and every other religion in that list can claim people that dont really go to church, but are members of record, then so can the mormons."

catholics are almost as bad as mormons for having people flee the church in disgust. im not defending their inflated numbers either. i know a lot of people who are "registered" catholics, but havent been to mass in years, and never plan to go back.

Quote :

"Its a fair representation of the membership, and definately more accurate than a poll of 50000 people."

you think a scientific sampling of the population is more accurate than a subjective and unconfirmed report "about" the population by administration with a vested interest in just what the population figures are?

you dont have a good conceptual grasp of statistics do you?

Quote :

"so I choose to believe ..."

... whatever the fuck you want to, apparently.

hey i guess i would feel pretty smart if i had magic underwear.

but whatever. ive quite thoroughly made my point here. i've got no interest in taking this any further with you.

6/7/2007 5:47:01 PM

Thats cool ... either way, numbers speak to you however you choose to see them as well... I think its something everyone does.

Nice job at trying to be insulting in the midst of discussing totally unrelated points. I swear, Extreme Anti mormons never cease to amaze me. Always trying to win over the masses with cheap shots.


I think we succeeded in one thing and one thing only here... We ruined a thread that started with a serious discussion and ended with the usual.

6/7/2007 7:23:36 PM

i see you are fixated on having the last word.

6/7/2007 7:45:30 PM

Quote :

"^^ That article sums up why some people like Thompson. Of course, the author probably would never understand why that is. "

There is a difference between being an outsider and having no meaningful record/experience. By your logic, corporations should just hire CEOs out of college because they haven't made as many mistakes as an experienced professional.

6/10/2007 4:40:30 AM

Quote :

"^^ or the biggest increase in membership over the gap from 2001 to 2007. ... Either way, wasn't the point that was trying to be made."

There has actually been a study on this. The fastest growing religions based upon people claiming said religion on census papers are the Jehovah's Witness and Seventh Day Adventists and the numbers from these two religions match the census numbers.

Now, with Mormons, if you were baptized once, never have your name taken off the rolls, you are a Mormon. It doesn't matter if you identify as one, you are a Mormon. What happens in a lot of instances, someone is baptized, attends for a few weeks and joins another church. the Mormons lose track of him, but he remains on the rolls until the ripe old age of 110. Yup, the Mormons like to keep people on the official church rolls until the age of 110.

The mormon church is being entirely disengenuous with the numbers. Census reports have shown this to be true.

6/10/2007 10:50:32 AM

Quote :

"There is a difference between being an outsider and having no meaningful record/experience. By your logic, corporations should just hire CEOs out of college because they haven't made as many mistakes as an experienced professional."

What? Who said he was an outsider? I kinda like that the fact that he isn't driven by ideology, isn't out to "change America," etc. I like politicians who view it as a job that needs to be done, and will not crusade for any issue at all. Non-interference.

6/10/2007 12:23:35 PM

I prefer when we have politicians crusade for issues, such as getting rid of poverty, protecting the environment and iconoclastism.

6/10/2007 1:28:52 PM