It's supposed to teach buoyancy and breath control but it's really a useless skill to teach like that. Preferably you're horizontal nearly all the time while on scuba. You'd never "sit indian style" while diving so it doesn't really teach you anything other than how to sit indian style while diving. It can present issues, especially in certain equipment configurations--in my double Al80s I might be able to do it, but in my double 119s I'd flip right on my back.

Unless you need to use them as communication or tools, you shouldn't use your hands or arms while diving. Just shows a certain level of being uncomfortable, is a great way to stir up silt, and looks utterly ridiculous--looks like someone flapping around like a bird.


Hovering in good trim is a better way to practice good buoyancy.

6/6/2007 2:33:48 PM

Quote :

"It's a picture of CharlesHF during the training for Open Water students. The water looks all green like that because there's very little viz and the water is very murky. I believe it's out at Fantasy Lake Scuba Park in Rolesville. I think the picture is pretty neat because he's got near perfect trim "

On that day we actually had decent vis, probably 15-20ft. The water looks green due to both the murk but also the compression on the video (it's a screenshot from video).

6/6/2007 2:35:44 PM

Quote :

"It's supposed to teach buoyancy and breath control but it's really a useless skill to teach like that. Preferably you're horizontal nearly all the time while on scuba. You'd never "sit indian style" while diving so it doesn't really teach you anything other than how to sit indian style while diving. It can present issues, especially in certain equipment configurations--in my double Al80s I might be able to do it, but in my double 119s I'd flip right on my back. Unless you need to use them as communication or tools, you shouldn't use your hands or arms while diving. Just shows a certain level of being uncomfortable, is a great way to stir up silt, and looks utterly ridiculous--looks like someone flapping around like a bird. Hovering in good trim is a better way to practice good buoyancy."

if you read my post you would have seen that we don't use our arms for anything and that we also practiced horizontal buoyancy control and breathing control near the bottom. It was and is a great learning tool.

6/6/2007 2:43:57 PM

Quote :

"As part of the training we had at fantasy lake, we had to learn how to be able to glide across the bottom of the quarry without kicking up sand and debris with our kicks since it takes so long for it to settle back down and ruins visibility etc."

Gliding across the bottom is different than hovering. Hovering means you stay still in one spot without moving. Gliding can be used to mask poor buoyancy control while you're moving.

A lot of my posts are for general info and aren't necessarily disagreeing with you. However, I will point out--unless you've ever had video taken of you, the difference between what you're doing and what you think you're doing will sometimes astonish you.

6/6/2007 2:47:49 PM

^two separate lessons. One was hovering for buoyancy control the other was learning how to swim without kicking up silt and such. I was giving examples of two different things you mentioned are only covered in PADI AOW when they were covered in just OW.

6/6/2007 2:59:54 PM

You misread my post. NONE Of those things are generally covered in any PADI course.

You got lucky with your course and apparently got an instructor who either decided that more skills is better than breaking standards, or the standards were different when you took the course. I can't tell you specifically though.

So just out of curiosity, how did they teach you to swim without kicking up silt?

6/6/2007 3:17:30 PM

can't remember what he called it...but it was kinda like a frog kick? hard to describe...basically you never propel water up or down but only from side to side.

i guess standards have changed because everyone we covered was in the big text book they gave us.

[Edited on June 6, 2007 at 3:20 PM. Reason : fda]

6/6/2007 3:19:00 PM

Are you sure this course was PADI? I'm wondering if they did the YMCA curriculum and gave you a PADI card. It's happened before....

6/6/2007 3:21:22 PM

It was. I signed up at Down Under Scuba...one of my friends is good friends with the lot of them over there and he recommended signing up there and requesting a certain instructor. Can't remember how much it was but it was expensive. It was also at the YWCA pool not the YMCA not sure if there is a difference between the two anymore.

Everything they gave us from the dive logs, text book, bundle package had PADI all over it. The cert. card was PADI also...has the little dolphins swimming on one side.

6/6/2007 3:24:03 PM

I'll take your word for it...but that does not sound like your average PADI class.

6/6/2007 3:43:21 PM

^yep, you got a PROPER course instruction for sure. Gives me some hope for PADI divers!

6/6/2007 9:53:33 PM

Now if only he had been diving recently...

6/6/2007 10:07:13 PM

heh only reason i haven't dived recently is because of my back surgery....but i am looking for some dive buddies.

6/6/2007 10:49:37 PM

Okay, I've been checking this thread regularly since it started. I am interested in learning how to scuba dive as I mentioned in my earlier post. I have learned a lot about the dangers and concerns just from researching as much as I can online over the past months or so, and am trying to learn as much about the dive tables and other things as I can before I actually get in the water and take the four day course.

I understand that I will not be "skilled" by any means after only four days of diving and skill practice. I know that I should be extremely carfeul and do everything possible to make sure I am not taking risks that are beyond my scope. I'm sure I will make mistakes, and the only way to improve and not make those mistakes will be to learn from those who are more experienced than me, and listen to the others I am with who have been diving longer.

ALL THAT BEING SAID....after reading all the stuff you are saying Charlie, you are really turning me off to diving period. It's like you are a diving snob. I can understand you are bothered because PADI certification doesn't teach everyone proper technique and you feel it can result in improper diving and danger, but you are being an ass about it.

I would assume that you would want people to get involved in diving and enjoy it, and be safe about it. You just keep dissing everything. I plan on being very careful and paying close attention and listening to my friend who has much more experience when I learn to dive. I hope that the other people I meet who are into scuba are not jerks about how great they are and how much I suck and should just stay out of the water because I don't know everything.

6/7/2007 9:06:50 AM

^Go back and read the posts again. He's not being a snob, but he does want everyone who gets into diving to have the best possible training before they get in the water. I think you are definitely going about it the right way, finding out as much as possible and entering into diving with a safety mindset. That's great I think you'll find that you're doing exactly what he recommends: researching. I also don't think you'll ever hear him say he's a great diver or that he's better than everyone else. Send him a PM if you have questions about diving, and I promise you won't be dissapointed.

Diving is a great sport. You'll meet some of the best people in the world doing it. You'll never forget your experiences, and it's something that you'll never want to give up. But I have to warn you, once you start, you'll become addicted and you'll wonder where all your money has gone.

6/7/2007 9:32:32 AM

^^Yeah I have to agree with ^

CharlesHF is just a tad overzealous is all. A large portion of scuba divers are vacation-certified no skill, slightly dangerous to themselves and others. If you just read this thread, you'll have a pretty good mental checklist of the things you should be learning as you go through your course. If you get through your course and haven't learned hovering and neutral bouyancy control, then a little alarm should sound in your head.

Be safe, use common sense, and watch the people around you and you should be just fine

6/7/2007 1:16:56 PM

Quote :

"ALL THAT BEING SAID....after reading all the stuff you are saying Charlie, you are really turning me off to diving period. It's like you are a diving snob. I can understand you are bothered because PADI certification doesn't teach everyone proper technique and you feel it can result in improper diving and danger, but you are being an ass about it. I would assume that you would want people to get involved in diving and enjoy it, and be safe about it. You just keep dissing everything. I plan on being very careful and paying close attention and listening to my friend who has much more experience when I learn to dive. I hope that the other people I meet who are into scuba are not jerks about how great they are and how much I suck and should just stay out of the water because I don't know everything."

I don't meant to come across as overzealous or an ass or any of that--really. Shoot me a PM and we'll talk. Diving is, in all seriousness, one of the best things that's ever happened to me. Opened up a whole new world, introduced me to great people, and I'm having loads of fun while doing it (although my bank account.....hates me).


The more you dive, the more you see (IMHO) how inadequate most basic training today is. 90% of divers are vacation divers--and that's fine. But reading accident reports of how someone did something that's just downright boneheaded and they (or their son, daughter, spouse, etc) died as a result of it. None of those people in the DAN Accident Reports thought they'd be there--but they are, a lot of them through something stupid. They don't pay attention to their air and they run out, or they panic because they get a little water in their mask---things like that are completely preventable. That's really what I'm harping on--people who have those issues are dangerous to both themselves and anyone around them while diving.

You won't hear me talk about how good I am; in fact you're more likely to hear me critique myself instead of patting myself on the back.

6/7/2007 2:51:36 PM

Okay, I'm leaving on Wednesday. What can I do to prepare before I get there and take the course? From what I've heard, proper breathing is essential to conserving air and keeping good buoyancy. Are there any exercises or things that I can do to practice in advance, any websites where I should go to read up on the best things to do?

I am already planning on wearing a dive watch, I am purchasing a mask this weekend (I was looking at one of the Cressi Big Eye masks for a wider field of vision http://www.joediveramerica.com/page/JDA/PROD/msk/DS2610XX), and my friend is letting me use his extra pair of fins.

I don't think I'll need a wetsuit since it's Belize, but I need to figure out something to wear on my upper body so I won't get sunburned.

6/8/2007 3:19:29 PM

You can get a rash guard for that. I have a Cressi mask that I like a lot. The key is to make sure it fits your face, the people you buy it from will be able to help with that.

http://www.scubaboard.com

If you go to that website, they'll have tips and things for new divers, and most of the questions you can have will be answered there. They'll also have threads specifically about diving in Belize, so that will help with your question on wetsuits and such. (Not all advice is good however, so take it with a grain of salt.)

Here's the forum specifically for new divers, there's a sticky at the top for "Things to Consider" http://www.scubaboard.com/forumdisplay.php?f=6

[Edited on June 8, 2007 at 3:44 PM. Reason : ]

6/8/2007 3:37:11 PM

One thing that you'll want to consider with gear is that expensive doesn't always mean better.

For example, some of the latest fads are "split fins" and "purge valves". Both of these are designed to help divers overcome a lack of technique; in the case of purge valves they're also an added failure point.

Purge valves are small one-way valves in the nose-pockets of masks or in the bottom of snorkels, with the intent that you just "exhale" and they help clear your mask if water gets inside. Someone who has good mask-clearing technique should easily be able to clear their mask without a one-way valves. Besides--all it is, is just a small flap. What if that comes out? Now there' a hole in the bottom of your mask.
Same thing with snorkels--if you have good snorkel clearing technique you can easily clear your snorkel without blasting it on the surface.
http://www4.ncsu.edu/~chfranci/maskclear.mp4
That's a video of a student in one of the classes here at NCSU. He goes down, puts puts the mask on (makes sure there's no hair in the top--if there's hair in your mask it won't seal properly), lifts the bottom slightly off his face, exhales gently and the mask clears. He's comfortable so he can do it smoothly and with his eyes open. Note how no extra bubbles fly out while he's clearing it, and how there aren't any extra bubbles when he's through clearing it. No excesses.
After several mask clears (with decent technique you should at least be able to do 3-4, with good technique and practice at least 7-10) he does a very nice snorkel displacement clear.

Split fins are made for 'bicycle kicking' and cheapo flutter kicking, both of which rototill the bottom and destroy the vis due to the silt that's kicked up. Get yourself a pair of ScubaPro JetFins and learn how to frog kick. I can supply good technique videos if you're like. It's an easier kick, doesn't use as much energy or air (due to the kick.....glide.....kick......glide cycle instead of kickkickkickkickkick like flutter kicking) and doesn't muck up the vis. If people who flutter kick ever looked behind them, they might see the huge trail of silt they leave...
http://www.leisurepro.com/Prod/SCPFJ.html
Another argument that people use for split fins is: "They make me go faster!" .....ok this argument is ridiculous. Scuba is NOT a race. You're there to SEE things, to LOOK at the life and beauty that's underwater, not to see who can kick the fastest!
One of my first dives down in Key Largo, I was paired up with an 'instabuddy' on a boat. I was on the instructor/volunteer dives with the NCSU group the day before the students were there; unfortunately there was an odd number of us and one other volunteer said "Hey why don't you pair up with this guy!" while he's standing there....*sigh* FINE so I did. The first words out of his mouth: "I want to see the whole wreck!"
So we descend and he kicks from the stern to the bow, several hundred feet. Kicks the whole length of the damn wreck. He "saw" the wreck, but he didn't see the wreck. He would have seen more had he hovered in one spot for the whole dive and watched the life on that one part, rather than kicking around the whole thing. If you can learn to hover in one spot without moving, watching life that's a few feet away (or closer, depending on how close you get) is absolutely fascinating. It's almost literally another world...



With masks, try to get something low volume that's close to your face. Low volume = less air used to clear the mask, and larger field of view. The closer your mask is to your face, the wider the field of view. I might also recommend a mask with a black skirt---the clear skirts will turn opaque and yellow within a year or so while the black will look great for many years. Also, clear skirts on masks let in extraneous light signals that might be a bit confusing whereas black skirts don't.


Breathing normally is paramount to diving. Skip-breathing (inhaling...pause.....exhaling....pause) will, in the end, make you use more air (building up CO2) and will probably give you a CO2 headache after the end of the dive. Learn to breathe normally and relaxed, just as if you were breathing normally on the surface. Remember, scuba isn't a competition to see who can use less air. Getting a CO2 headache is BAD news---very, very painful.

However, breathing does affect your buoyancy. You can slightly modify or use your breathing to adjust your buoyancy if needed. I know what I just said plus what I typed up above seem contradictory...they're not unless you seriously do something weird. 90% (or more) of your buoyancy should be taken care of with your BC (or wing), then should be fine-tuned with your breathing. If you need to go up a tad, take a slightly larger breath (but don't hold it!!). If you need to go down a little, exhale more.


As to the wetsuit/no-wet-suit issue--I would wear something thin, even if it's just a 0.5mm or 1mm wetsuit. If you start doing multiple dives per day out on the boat with the wind blowing you'll start to get chilled, even in the warm water. Your body's core temperature loses heat with each with each dive and doesn't regain it until the next day (if then)--so between dives, your body's core temp isn't warming up. Just gets cooler.


Please, please, please don't bump or kick the coral. If you do, you kill it--not to mention you get stung, but I'm not worried about you, I'm worried about the coral.

[Edited on June 8, 2007 at 6:17 PM. Reason : links]

6/8/2007 6:17:06 PM

Don't hesitate to ask me anything else--I'm here to help.

6/8/2007 6:19:13 PM

Yea the NCSU class is much better than most other classes and probably almost all PADI classes. take that or some kind of NAUI class. I think the only thing i have forgotten from that class is how to calculate MOD and EAD but i have a card with examples, everything they have taught me about when you are on a dive i will always remember!

6/9/2007 2:23:18 PM

man, i was gonna go diving today

but then my buddy's boat broke

and then a PM thunderstorm came up

6/9/2007 5:28:22 PM

I got in 4 dives today.

6/9/2007 7:35:25 PM

I got in 2! My first dives with doubles!

6/9/2007 7:45:30 PM

dammit

friend's boat still broken...overheating problem

6/10/2007 2:58:46 PM

Can't go on Saturday but I'm considering jumping in a river on Sunday.

6/15/2007 2:22:23 AM