Quote :

"Then, why should the gov't get involved in forcing the mall to put buses through its own parking lots?"

You're leaving out some crucial steps there. I was merely trying to demonstrate that a mall is a public venue, and in this respect you can't really compare it to your house.

6/29/2007 12:48:25 AM

but, the mall is NOT a public venue. it is private property. that's why they can have you arrested for trespassing if they want. The mall provides the parking lot as a service to you, the shopper, so that you don't have to pay the city for parking on the street. Also, it makes getting to the store more convenient. But, those choices are made BY THE MALL, FOR THE MALL. The mall might help the city in some aspects by removing some parking from the actual city streets, but the parking lots still belong to the mall.

and, that's also why the mall can tow your vehicle from their parking lots if they deem that you are not actually shopping at the mall. City buses are merely using private property for gov't business in this instance, and thus they have to have the permission of the mall to operate on the mall's property.

6/29/2007 12:57:25 AM

See aaron the federal gov't has legally created the concept of a public accomodation...

Quote :

"Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 (ADA) - Title III (Discrimination by a public accommodation or commercial facility. A public accommodation is an operation that fits in one of the following 12 categories: 1. Places of lodging (e.g. inns, hotels, motels) (except for owner-occupied establishments renting fewer than six rooms); 2. Establishments serving food or drink (e.g., restaurants and bars); 3. Places of exhibition or entertainment (e.g. motion picture houses, theaters, concert halls, stadiums); 4. Places of public gathering (e.g. auditoriums, convention centers, lecture halls); 5. Sales or rental establishments (e.g. bakeries, grocery stores, hardware stores, shopping centers); 6. Service establishments (e.g. laundromats, dry cleaners, banks, barber shops, beauty shops, travel services, shoe repair services, funeral parlors, gas stations, offices of accountants or lawyers, pharmacies, insurance offices, professional offices of health care providers, hospitals); 7. Public transportation terminals, depots, or stations (not including facilities relating to air transportation); 8. Places of public display or collection (e.g. museums, libraries, galleries); 9. Places of recreation (e.g., parks, zoos, amusement parks); 10. Places of education (e.g. nursery schools, elementary, secondary, undergraduate, or postgraduate private schools); 11. Social service center establishments (e.g., day care centers, senior citizen centers, homeless shelters, food banks, adoption agencies); and 12. Places of exercise or recreation (e.g. gymnasiums, health spas, bowling alleys, golf courses). "

So the feds and states have put limitations on what you can do with your property if it has been deemed a public accomodation.
For instance, if you own a airline, you cannot refuse to let a muslim on your plane just because you don't approve of his religion. Now if he starts slashing the other passengers with a box-cutter...that's another story.

6/29/2007 1:37:34 AM

We should just ship out all the poor people to an isolated island somewhere so they can't bother us. I think that's the best solution for all our problems.

6/29/2007 1:51:05 AM

hell nos. dont give them motherfuckers an island. they'll never appreciate its value, and they'll just shit all over the place and leave coconut rinds laying about.

if they want an island to be isolated on, they got to buy a timeshare like anyone else.

6/29/2007 2:03:26 AM

Quote :

"We should just ship out all the poor people to an isolated island somewhere so they can't bother us. I think that's the best solution for all our problems."

here here

6/29/2007 2:10:59 AM

well, ED, it may be a "public accommodation" by the ADA, but that hardly matters in this situation. The stores aren't discriminating against disabled people. They are discriminating against a gov't entity that is causing them hardships on their own property without any implied or legal right for the gov't to be on their property, save for their agreement with the gov't

6/29/2007 7:00:09 AM

Normally id agree with property rights and shit, but i will have to say that if you open a business that caters to retail customers then you better be prepared for any and all people that could possibly come in. If you don't like it, go into wholesale or some business other than retail or build a fucking house on the property.

6/29/2007 8:44:06 AM

I have a picture, Ill have to try to find it, of the mall rules at peabody place in memphis. It was entirely aimed at one group I had to take a picture. But I guess they are trying to keep thier customers. If someone doesnt feel safe, they will stop coming, and the business will fail. Pretty simple actually.

6/29/2007 9:07:08 AM

The streets that run through Brier Creek are extremely narrow (traffic circles, etc.), buses would have a lot of problems getting in and out. There are also bus stops all along Brier Creek Parkway.

6/29/2007 9:24:51 AM

I didn't read this whole thread -- and I'm not going to -- but I read a good chunk of it, and I've got this to say:

Look, people, it's simple

If you bought a home and chose not to allow blacks and gays into your home, that's your right and no one could stop you

If, however, you opened a store and put a sign in your store's door that read "NO NIGGERS AND FAGS ALLOWED!" you'd be looked at a lawsuit or two.

/thread

6/29/2007 9:50:48 AM

Quote :

" if you open a business that caters to retail customers then you better be prepared for any and all people that could possibly come in."

No one is trying to deny anyone from going into the shops.

Why do you need a bus stop right inside of what is essentially a gigantic parking lot. Put bus stop on the public street at various points along the shopping center and drop people off there. The walk from there to the shops is a few hundred feet at that point.

This is a whole lot of nothing.

6/29/2007 10:28:45 AM

^^

6/29/2007 11:30:10 AM

The article talks about people waiting more than an hour for a bus. I think this mall stuff is a red herring to distract attention from the fact that CAT bus service sucks.

6/29/2007 11:38:36 AM

Quote :

"Hell, even most undesirables can afford cars."

That made me lol.

But I have to say, they should have designed the shopping center with a convenient bus stop with no other traffic (or just other big vehicles like delivery trucks). Having a big city bus navigate through a crowded parking lot isn't good. Someone's car is going to get messed up (I've seen it happen with the Wolfline).

6/29/2007 12:00:50 PM

The city should have built a bus stop lane when the developer was building the mall.

6/29/2007 1:32:15 PM

^ Exactly. Say the shops are where the writing is in that diagram. Thats a good compromise.

6/29/2007 1:37:47 PM

If they don't bus poor people into Brier Creek, whom can I spit on when I'm shopping?

6/29/2007 1:39:38 PM

Quote :

"It's all "property rights" this and that now, but these shopping centers don't get built without significant investments from the city in terms of utilities, planning, DOT road works and emergency services. The streets in the parking lot of a shopping center are, for all intents and purposes, just another city street."

u do know that the city doesn't donate all that asphalt and cement right? Someone pays for it and its almost always the developers. And its not the city that builds the road either, its the contractors hired to do the job. They just have to follow DOT standards, if you can even call them standards

6/29/2007 4:10:51 PM

i voted for Meeker

6/29/2007 4:41:36 PM

Quote :

"The streets in the parking lot of a shopping center are, for all intents and purposes, just another city street. "

This isnt true.

6/30/2007 11:38:09 PM

Ban city buses and who will work at your malls?

7/1/2007 3:47:31 PM

i wonder how many of these bus riders are the employees of these stores.

[Edited on July 1, 2007 at 11:05 PM. Reason : ^ ahaha i hadn't read down that far when i made this response.]

Quote :

"The city should have built a bus stop lane when the developer was building the mall. "

maybe they would've had the mall not decided to allow buses to stop within the mall.

[Edited on July 1, 2007 at 11:07 PM. Reason : .]

7/1/2007 11:05:29 PM

http://tinyurl.com/2b8xto

It's all of ~.1 mile from the city street at Brier Creek to the line of shops.

Public accommodation has nothing to do with this, since they aren't barring anyone from shopping/working there.

7/2/2007 12:01:35 AM

less face the facts here people

only illegals and wannabe thug brothers ride these buses

i wouldn't want one stopping near my property

7/2/2007 12:41:01 AM

one of my friends got a dui and had to ride the bus.

but maybe they want to keep out drunks as well.

7/2/2007 7:41:10 AM

I swear I liked you libertarians better when you stuck to just bitching about your trust funds and estate taxes.

ROADS ARE NOT YOUR PROPERTY!

7/2/2007 9:38:17 AM

I swear I liked you illiterates better when you stuck to just bitching about your slow torrents and blurry faxes.

BUSES ARE ALLOWED ON THE ROADS!









The shopping centers don't want the buses in the parking lots. They're not trying to stop the buses from running (or even stopping) on the public roads next to the shopping centers.

7/2/2007 10:44:58 AM

Quote :

"sorry, but just because you buy some land, doesnt mean you can turn it into your own fiefdom."

Yes you can. And this is absolutely as it should be. Go read real estate law, I believe it says the owner is entitled to something like 'quiet enjoyment of the property as he or she sees fit'....

I know several people who own commercial properties/shopping centers in Raleigh, and they say that when the buses from Moore Square downtown quit running temporarily a while back, the shoplifting rates plummeted. The buses were soon running again though, after a Sharpton-esque uproar, and shoplifting skyrocketed again to previous levels. It really is so bad that I've heard a couple of prominent Raleigh business owners (who shall remain nameless) refer to this bus route as "The Felony Flyer".

7/2/2007 11:31:34 AM

Parking Lots ... Roads ... aren't we splitting hairs here?

Quote :

" Yes you can. And this is absolutely as it should be. Go read real estate law, I believe it says the owner is entitled to something like 'quiet enjoyment of the property as he or she sees fit'...."

Ummm... no you can't, you ever lived in your grass can't be but a certain height. There are many 'public nuisance' ordinances which keep you from doing alot of things on your property. I can't play music at 140dB for instance on "my property". I also can't mow the lawn buck naked. etc....

Quote :

"It really is so bad that I've heard a couple of prominent Raleigh business owners (who shall remain nameless) refer to this bus route as "The Felony Flyer"."

are they too pussy to give out their names, or were they to busy sipping their red wine in their Cary townhome?

[Edited on July 2, 2007 at 11:29 PM. Reason : ]

7/2/2007 11:23:44 PM

Quote :

"Parking Lots ... Roads ... aren't we splitting hairs here?"

Are you joking?

7/3/2007 1:07:43 AM

Quote :

"less face the facts here people only illegals and wannabe thug brothers ride these buses i wouldn't want one stopping near my property "

I know a UNC-CH student who lost his license due to being caught driving drunk who has to ride the bus.

7/3/2007 1:19:16 AM

chapel hill... same thing

7/3/2007 7:08:27 AM

speaking of property law.

in brooklyn up the street from where I live they are trying to build this monster structure which would include the Brooklyn Nets stadium. In the process they are claiming the area around it is "blighted" and needs to be torn down. Thus they are nullifing the property holdings of a good chunk of several blocks

so if this shit gets your panties wet check it out

http://www.developdontdestroy.org/php/latestnews_ArchiveDate.php

7/3/2007 7:40:08 AM

^ that was a natural result of last year's SC decision which effectively ended any and all property rights in America.

7/3/2007 5:49:48 PM

^^that property is majority illegal loft houses

7/3/2007 7:35:14 PM

virginia just passed a law that protects homeowners right and doesnt allow the govt to take your land for the sole purpose of increasing its tax base.

Its about the only thing they have gotten right.

7/3/2007 9:02:11 PM

^^ um....its not and there are a large number of family homes in the path. Also the rest of the area is going to be pretty fucked up as a result.

7/4/2007 11:13:26 AM

^^if i recall, NC passed a similar law after the USSC decision.

7/4/2007 6:07:43 PM