^^i deny that it has much of an appreciable affect on the cost of my health insurance/care.

7/10/2007 2:28:31 AM

Interesting article: (I don't know how valid the statistics are, though)

Quote :

"Leading researcher Dr. Lawrence J. McQuillan says the total economic drag on Americans for runaway litigation, jaw-dropping punitive damages and frivolous lawsuits is an astonishing $865 billion per year. That computes to $9,827 per year extra for goods and services for a family of four."

Quote :

"The United States spends about 2.2 percent of its gross domestic product on direct lawsuit costs while other countries spend only 0.9 percent of GDP on direct tort costs. "

http://www.tuscaloosanews.com/article/20070617/NEWS/706170331/1027/EDITORIAL

[Edited on July 10, 2007 at 2:36 AM. Reason : 2]

7/10/2007 2:35:47 AM

lawrence j mcquillan, aka researcher for the libertarian/neocon hoover institution. try again.

oh yeah, and did you think that maybe people sue for so much more in this country because health care COSTS so much more in this country?

[Edited on July 10, 2007 at 2:56 AM. Reason : .]

7/10/2007 2:38:37 AM

People who sue increase the cost of health care...its not that hard of logic

7/10/2007 6:00:45 AM

Quote :

"why is it second nature for the protection of our buildings from fire to be entirely socialized, but the protection of our bodies is not? or at the very least protection of the bodes of children? or do you think that fire protection should be made more efficient by market forces?"

This analogy is horribly incorrect. A fire is a catastrophic event. Routine healthcare is not. If you find yourself in a car wreck or otherwise are seriously injured, no hospital can legally turn you away. They will treat you whether you have insurance or not.

Citing the existence of a publicly funded fire department as analogous to publicly funded healthcare is laughably ridiculous.

7/10/2007 6:43:57 AM

^ exactly

fire department coming to your house = immediate Health care in emergency situation

having the fire department come to you house to install a free sprinkler system and fire retardant walls = free health care for every aspect of your life

7/10/2007 7:31:30 AM

Going back to the original topic . . . I can't imagine why Michael Moore hasn't been invited on CNN more. He might have some good points, but I can't hear them over all his bluster.

7/10/2007 8:35:22 AM

^^^so say you're terribly ill and have to go to the emergency room to save your life.

if you don't have insurance, you'll likely be bankrupted by such an event.

yet, if your house is in an "emergency situation" the fire dept. will come by and save it for free, no questions asked.

^^ and i don't necessarily think that EVERY aspect of health care should be free. BUT all I was saying to begin with is that we accept this wholly socialized service as perfectly acceptable. but if you ride in an ambulance, even a block, you're going to pay out your nose for it.

[Edited on July 10, 2007 at 9:05 AM. Reason : .]

7/10/2007 9:03:06 AM

I remember when I had great health insurance, then they raised the rates so high that it was actually cheaper for me to pay out of pocket for my necessary care.

Those rates are pretty much across the board for every insurance company out there. hell, I could have my balls cut open every three months and still not recoup the cost of insurance.

Stupid fucking high risk bullshit.

7/10/2007 9:37:35 AM

Quote :

"if you don't have insurance, you'll likely be bankrupted by such an event."

It's a toss up, depending on the hospital. If they receive any public funds (WakeMed, for example), the taxpayers pick up the bill.

Quote :

"yet, if your house is in an "emergency situation" the fire dept. will come by and save it for free, no questions asked."

They'll put out the fire, but your house may or may not be inhabitable afterward. Any collateral damage sustained by putting out the fire is on you or your insurance (You do have homeowner's insurance, right????) to pay for.

7/10/2007 9:38:19 AM

sarijoul. My stepdad got sued by a patient who after surgery was given a prescription(that she admits) and then did not fill the perscription, or return for her post-op. She later developed and infection in her foot, went to the ER and had to have a TOE amputated. They claimed race discrimiation and malpractice and wanted close to a million.

The problem is the lack of self responsiblity in our healthcare system, or in society for that matter. Its far easier to take an additional (free) pill, than it is to lose 10lbs and change your lifestyle for diabetics. So that cycle continues. At least twice a week, I hear shit like "my doctor cant keep my sugar down." But they had fried food for lunch.

Another way, and undocumented, that lawsuits rise the cost of healthcare is from overtesting. Now every teenager with a headache is getting MRIs, bc if you miss a tumor...you are done. In school they often use the phrase, "you dont want to be the last signature on this patient." So we often over test and over refer.

BTW, I would love the govt to get out of healthcare. THey provide over 50% of healthcare in this country TODAY. Let insurance companies use a standard form so they can easily be compared with other plans, and let people start to actually become informed about their own damn insurance. That, in my opinion, is the number one problem. Its apathy. People dont know the name of their insurance, much less what it covers. Then bitch at me, or say some shit like, "my insurance covers EVERYTHING", and get upset when corrected. Just how I see it.

For the young/healthy insurance should only cover major issues. Have people pay for routine care, out of pocket. Just like car insurance. People would be bitching about car insurance if it paid for tires, oil changes, etc.. Its just unreasonable. I get to see how insurance companies raise our rates 14% last year for the practices healthcare ins. but then cut our reimbursement 3%. Now you tell me where the money is going?

7/10/2007 10:40:04 AM

some more anecdotal evidence:

at the hospital where a family member works

medicare and medicaid pay 76% of all the bills

there is already plenty of government involvment

[Edited on July 10, 2007 at 11:01 AM. Reason : 

7/10/2007 10:59:53 AM

yesterday made me realize that i dont really like michael moore

7/10/2007 11:44:12 AM

Watching it now.
First impressions: Michael Moore has an oddly shaped head; apparently his left ear is higher than is right, by a good portion.
Also, he takes up the whole damn frame. Why is a fat guy doing a documentary on health care? Probably wanted to know who's going to foot his heart-attack bills.

7/10/2007 4:26:06 PM

He is angry that cnn didnt question the war, but then is angry that cnn is questioning his movie? That makes alot of sense.

7/10/2007 4:48:03 PM

part 2 is about to come on soon

7/10/2007 4:55:59 PM

Michael Moore is a big fat stupid white man

7/10/2007 4:59:17 PM

i like michael wier too

[Edited on July 10, 2007 at 5:08 PM. Reason : wolf and cafferty were talking about him]

7/10/2007 5:08:24 PM

Quote :

"lawrence j mcquillan, aka researcher for the libertarian/neocon hoover institution. try again."

sarijoul

Oh, I forgot. You only accept DNC talking points, am I right?

7/10/2007 5:15:51 PM

no, i check sources, and when the source is questionable, i look for another source. as simple as that.

also: i find it particularly suspicious when the original article doesn't mention the affiliation of the author/cited person. when this happens, it usually means there is some agenda to hide.

[Edited on July 10, 2007 at 5:23 PM. Reason : .]

7/10/2007 5:21:11 PM

what sources ARENT "questionable"

7/10/2007 5:23:45 PM

well, none of them. which is why i look for more than one source.

some sources certainly have far more of an agenda than others. hell thinktanks pretty much have an agenda by definition.

7/10/2007 5:25:00 PM

Quote :

"if you want to fix health care, fixing insurance is probably where you should start"

Quote :

"if you want to fix health care, fixing insurance is probably where you should start"

Quote :

"if you want to fix health care, fixing insurance is probably where you should start"

Quote :

"if you want to fix health care, fixing insurance is probably where you should start"

Quote :

"if you want to fix health care, fixing insurance is probably where you should start"

Quote :

"if you want to fix health care, fixing insurance is probably where you should start"

Quote :

"if you want to fix health care, fixing insurance is probably where you should start"

and how exactly was he making fun of sanjay?

[Edited on July 10, 2007 at 6:45 PM. Reason : asrf]

7/10/2007 6:32:49 PM

Quote :

"This analogy is horribly incorrect. A fire is a catastrophic event. Routine healthcare is not"

What about preventing the spread of disease and infection? Keeping the citizens of a country in good general health prevents such things. Would you rather have the U.S. be like Swaziland, with a life expectancy of 30?

7/10/2007 6:58:52 PM

If the majority of Americans can prove they want to be healthy and get their fat asses in the gym every now and then, quit smoking two packs a day, don't binge drink every weekend, stop eating fast food every meal etc, then we'll talk about that

7/10/2007 7:02:23 PM

because of course you can't address one problem unless all other problems with america's health are solved first.

7/10/2007 7:08:12 PM

I have no problem with my taxes going towards emergency medical care, but if my taxes start going towards elective surgeries, then yeah, I'm going to bitch. Same goes with treating and caring for preventable diseases.

You want to make that analogy on firefighters, then fine lets make it. Do you want to keep sending in firefighters to a house which is set on fire at least once a week because some dumbass keeps falling asleep while smoking on a couch doused in kerosene?

7/10/2007 7:12:08 PM

if you only support emergency medicine, then people will just wait until it's an emergency.

it would be a lot cheaper to pay for checkups than waiting until problems become emergencies.

now do i think the government should pay for liposuction or lasik? no. but keeping americans nominally healthy would be good for everyone.

7/10/2007 7:15:40 PM

i agree with the elective surgery issue, but there is a problem. how is a knee replacement elective surgery? and does this include procedures such as acl reconstruction, something that is necessary not elective?

let's also not forget that bad health can be attributed to the surroundings. ie, living in la and breathing that fucking smog, you're going to have more problems. people in the construction industry are going to have more problems with asbestos among other things

7/10/2007 7:17:28 PM

Quote :

"I get to see how insurance companies raise our rates 14% last year for the practices healthcare ins. but then cut our reimbursement 3%. Now you tell me where the money is going?"

It's going to make up the money they lost on the stock market. And that my friend is the problem with for profit health care

7/10/2007 7:19:14 PM

^

7/10/2007 7:25:07 PM

Quote :

"It's going to make up the money they lost on the stock market. And that my friend is the problem with for profit health care"

that isnt the problem with health care

that is a problem with health insurance

two completely independent yet symbiotic entities

and health care has to be for-profit, because there has to be some motivation to provide the service

[Edited on July 10, 2007 at 8:30 PM. Reason : 

7/10/2007 8:25:43 PM

Quote :

"that isnt the problem with health care that is a problem with health insurance two completely independent yet symbiotic entities and health care has to be for-profit, because there has to be some motivation to provide the service "

Yep. Good post, too bad it will fall on deaf ears. (which could be cured if the govt controlled healthcare) LOL

Quote :

"I have no problem with my taxes going towards emergency medical care, but if my taxes start going towards elective surgeries, then yeah, I'm going to bitch."

Do you consider gastric bypass or fertility surgeries or drugs to be elective? Bc your money goes towards those now. Its covered by those poor people who receive medicaid. It also covers propecia for hair, accutane for acne, viagra.. oh those poor people. Shit they have better drug coverage than most of us that pay for ins. then have to pay a copay... and thats if the damn drug is even covered.

7/10/2007 9:12:36 PM

Americans have unfortunately reached the point where they look to gov't to take care of more and more responsibilites of being alive.

We don't want to be bothered with the hassles of shopping for health care, as we do now with car insurance, so we are all to ready to hand the whole thing over to politicians.

Of the 45 million people without healthcare that pro-socialized healthcare advocates keep harping on, roughly a third of them are members of households that bring in over $50,000/year. And nearly a fifth make over $75,000/year. Yes there are millions who cannot afford health insurance but the real culprit is..yes government.

State gov'ts drive up costs by mandating various coverages that not everyone wants or needs. It's like car insurance companies being forced by gov't to force customers to put alchohol protection devices on their cars even if they've never had a DUI.

Another problem is that the tax system has encouraged employers to become the main customers of health insurance companies. They are shopping for the best deal to cover their employees. Employers can deduct the cost of health coverage from their taxes, but individuals -if they are in a work-provided health group- cannot deduct what they pay each year.

We should re-set the plan to let individuals shop around for their own health care. Allow them to buy whatever package suits their needs, and let them deduct the cost from their taxes. With millions of people shopping healthcare, competition will keep insurers sensitive to the needs of their customers.

I fear it may be too late to turn away socialized medicine...with the combination of a gov't-screwed up system along with American's laziness. We are so use to getting medical help immediately, the socialized realities of long lines and waiting periods will be maddening...but then it will be too late.


Citizens in Great Britain lining up for gov't-provided dental care. Are we ready for this?

7/10/2007 11:09:15 PM

^yet another person who doesn't understand the difference between single provider and single payer.

7/11/2007 12:29:53 AM

sanjay gupta and michael moore were on larry king tonight. they actually agreed on a number of things.

[Edited on July 11, 2007 at 2:19 AM. Reason : the bit i saw was good at least.]

7/11/2007 2:18:52 AM

did moore make fun of his name?

7/11/2007 8:02:48 AM

Michael Moore is an Asshat

7/11/2007 8:39:54 AM

One of the proven results of single payer is rationing. The gov't will have to turn some people down, and make most others wait. Do we really want politicians and bureaucrats making these decisions?

The thing that sank the Clinton health plan was the fact that even if the person could afford to get treatment or medicine...once the gov't said "NO", you were screwed. It was agaisnt the law to go outside the system.

I say let's try to fix the free market system first before letting gov't take it over.

7/11/2007 10:51:32 AM

One of the biggest factors in the UN rankings is life expectancy.

One of the biggest factors lowering US life expectancy is obesity.

7/11/2007 11:59:38 AM

supposing that is true, are you implying that the health care industry in this country isn't totally fucked up anyhow?

7/11/2007 12:02:41 PM

it's less fucked up than the film industry

7/11/2007 12:27:23 PM

and that's relevant how?

7/11/2007 1:12:56 PM

Great news on wait times. Over half now are under 18 weeks for thier referrals and to start treatments.

http://www.dailyexpress.co.uk/posts/view/9096


http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/news/tm_headline=462-000-deaths-caused-by-nhs--&method=full&objectid=19241847&siteid=66633-name_page.html

http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=995812007

7/11/2007 1:30:35 PM

Let us point out that the US spends more on healthcare then any other nation and yet does not have full coverage of anything. The overhead of the American system is what, 20% more then any other nation?

Also, I don't think free market healthcare is actually a good solution as its in the interest of profit for a insurance provider to pay as little as possible and charge as much as possible. That doesn't mean hospitals and medical care getting cheaper, it means less coverage for you and more copay.

7/11/2007 2:18:24 PM

Quote :

"that isnt the problem with health care that is a problem with health insurance two completely independent yet symbiotic entities and health care has to be for-profit, because there has to be some motivation to provide the service"

7/11/2007 2:25:40 PM

There's no separating healthcare from health insurance.

You can't receive care without insurance unless you make a good deal of money.

Anyone thats done even a basic checkup without insurance can tell you this.

7/11/2007 2:30:32 PM

right, but reforming health insurance would solve the problem.

7/11/2007 2:32:19 PM

It would address part of it.

Another problem with healthcare, as has been pointed out, is that American's are really really fat.

7/11/2007 2:33:23 PM

Quote :

"Anyone thats done even a basic checkup without insurance can tell you this. "

Are you serious? We charge 78 bucks for an exam. People pay more to get thier hair done. Routine visits are not that expensive and are actually a good value when you consider the skill, staff, and cost of equipment used in medicial offices.

7/11/2007 2:39:50 PM