Both cars have HID's

But the cars are very different. I dont think its fair to compare them.

I would take the 10k and fucking run if I were you. At least you have buying used cars down to an art so you never took the evo depreciation hit.

[Edited on September 21, 2007 at 7:55 PM. Reason : .]

9/21/2007 7:55:01 PM

Quote :

"and a vette does not have 4 seats Quote : "E46 M3 is very much a performance machine on par with STEvos. Suspension is calibrated even stiffer than EVO (which has considerable amount of body roll) and steering response is excellent. Stock for stock I would give EVO slight advantage on the track in the hands of novice drivers, but in experienced hands, M3 will shine on track just as much as EVo if not more." I disagree. It's a capable performance car, but you're nuts if you think it's as performance focused as an Evo. Furthermore, the Evo IX is probably mod friendly to a greater extent than any other car on the road, and the power deficit compared to an M3 can be easily overcome for a paltry amount of money and trouble. "

Could not agree with Duke more, and I own an M3.

The Evo off the line will beat the M3, and will continue to beat it to about 80mph. This topic has been thoroughly discussed by M3 owners, just do a search.

The Evo is also extremely cheap to mod, and very forgiving due to the AWD. If you want just a fast car with lots of potential for modding, Evo is the way to go.

9/21/2007 8:26:32 PM

Last time I was at VIR the E46 M3 couldn't keep up after i passed him.

9/21/2007 9:40:24 PM

Quote :

"25k... legacy gt fast, incognito the wrx mods bolt up comfy leather awd"

YES.

(forgot to add that to my list)

9/22/2007 4:09:52 AM

being honest here... fun /= fast... ignore that I've listed the fastest car first, pls....

I was in your position, and I "bought" an 06 Lincoln LS v8, but it's only pick 10 on this list b/c dad went in on it with me and he got to cast his opinion on what he believed was and wasn't safe.

1st choice:
GTO
MASSIVE back seat. it's better to sit back there than in my Lincoln. true. and 350 or 400 hp versions are both in your price range now. this may be sacrilege, but that car has so much torque, I think it might be worth buying one with an auto unless it sucks. I drove an 06 6sp and I never got the damn thing into 4th for longer than 30 seconds. you do not need more than 4 gears in that car. downside I couldn't get past: no rear seat pass-through. The gas-tank location is from the solstice/sky school of packaging, right in the middle of where you want to put shit.

2nd choice:
Infiniti G35
spec it: gray with 7 spoke wheels and gold painted brembos. delicious. yellow interior lighting is a little odd, but a great driver. and I did say sexy, right? forget the sedan. You use the shape of the body every time you look at it, you only use the rear doors when you've got 4 ppl in the car.

3rd choice, begrudgingly:
super low mile e36 m3 if you can find one.... or maybe an e46 330i if you prefer that for some reason
I don't like the e36 m3 owners' image, but every time I ride in one... you can just tell its a special car. e46 m3 is still mostly above your price range. i think buying any e46 3 series that isn't an e6 m3 will have you wishing you looked hard for a really cherry e36 m3 even though there probably isn't one to be found., buyers remorse is a bitch, I wish i'd looked at e46s

4th choice:
BMW m coupe
fuck the backseat! what other miata- sized car can drag your golden retriever along!
i haven't driven one yet, and I don't really feel whole... prettiest thing on the whole page unless you're not into bulging fenders, incredible glass area, long sloping hoods, and perfectly filled wheel/fenderwell ratio.....

5th choice:
anything subaru with a turbo 4 cylinder. NO h-6!
(personal pref order: legacy gt /spec B (ride quality MATTERS) > sti > saabaru 9-3> wrx)
I drove an 07 Outback and the only thing i could fault was that it rolled a little too much... which I'm sure

6th choice:
get two fun cheaper cars instead?
mazdaspeed miata + econobox (or add flyin miata turbo kit and replace the econobox with an undesirable high mileage but reliable hauler like an early-model honda oddyssey?)

7th choice:
VW GTI DSG. drive one. Not a jetta gli, not an a3. the weight and wheelbase matter. plenty of space, easy hp is available if you want it. Slowest car on this page but not the least fun. DSG is fucking amazing and makes the +/- shifter in my LS v8 look like cruel and unusual punishment. You will look like batman behind the wheel to passengers. spookily deft, and the first fwd car I didn't hate. best gas mileage too. really, the best 200 hp car I've ever driven. it could keep up with my LS, probably, simply because the same driver will get so much more out of the gti. reliability unknown.

8th choice:
Dodge magnum r/t / srt8
tires are expensive. gas is expensive. but you could own a 420 hp badasswagon...truly. I drove one a couple of months ago in greensboro that was going for 28k. There's gotta be one out there for ~25. the stock 340hp model is pretty good too, especially if you value exhaust note. The magnum sounds better than the charger for some reason. I credit the interior acting like an echo chamber rather than the charger muffling the note under the trunk. Magnum b/c the charger and magnum have better suspension with much less roll than the 300c, and the charger is kinda juvenile and obvious in a bad way compared to the magnum. Easily the biggest interior of any of the cars on this post. visibility is ok, sucks out the rear. handling is better than you'd think.... if my car wasn't so damn pretty....

9th choice:
high mileage cts-v. every shift into third bangs your knuckles into the ashtray. Remove the ashtray and love it. rip out whole interior , actually.... horrible misbudgeting of interior styling efforts vs interior materials.... but the drive is amazing. In the real world every bit as fast as a gto or evo or sti. better shift quality than the gto too. I stalled it a bunch. sorry. backseat is horrible.

10. biased final choice, since I gots one:
early model Lincoln LS v6 5sp with low miles (rare though) or Late model Lincoln LS v8. particularly 04/05 LSE spec or 06 (similar to LSE)... go drive one and wonder why bmw gets away with charging so much for a 5 series. get one with 16" wheels on it and the ride beats the piss out of everything else here except the m3 on lightweight wheels. Ahmet's got some koseis on his that were especially compliant. awesome back seat. awesome trunk, seat folds down. air conditioned seats. no real aftermarket. Everyone has the same 4or5 ~$1k (combined) mods: magnaflow exhaust, KKM intake, eibach springs+ "i've been looking at nitrous/custom turbo, etc." when was the last time you saw a sedan with real HIPS. just be smarter than me and don't get a black one. You'll drive yourself crazy trying to keep it spotless. 04/05 LSE in metallic red is the hot spec.

11.one more for good measure: 05+ mustang gt. the backseat is a joke, it looks like a joke, view out is a joke, solid rear is inexcusable unless you're running way more power than stock and are taking it to the strip, but my gawd.... every time my neighbor turns his over..... thats an exhaust note to die for. magic. If you are someone who must blow money on mods, the only other cars on the page with close to as much stuff available are the subies and i suppose the m3, but the same hobby on an m3 buys less improvement for much more money. please ignore the 03/04 cobra! handles no better than a new GT, the new GT is far cheaper to run, the interior is much worse... the only thing an 03/04 cobra does better in the real world is put you in jail. not cool. hardly any are stock either, despite easily 390 RWhp straight outta the box.

ABSOLUTELY NOTS:
audi s4 would be perfectly fine and then kaboom you owe some money... vw/audi sucks to repair

Mazda rx-8 is fun but couldn't be further from reliable. stay away

Mazdaspeed 6.... 263 hp sounds like enough and then you realize that there isn't actually someone in the backseat with a vacuum cleaner. exhaust note matters, and that's really only a part-time 4wd sedan. Might as well get a MPS3. legacy gt roundly kicks this one

Neon srt-4.... not a single one has been driven like the owner wants to keep it, and the exhaust sounds retarded.

volvo s60r... the bilstein suspension ruins the ride, and i think they increased caster without a thought to turning radius. 5 point turns in a culdesac are retarded. I drove it the same day as a magnum srt8 and 05 lincoln ls v8 sport. it did not fair well.

Acura TL.... might as well buy a v6 or even 4 cylinder accord. so boring. holds value insanely well though

Acura TSX.... good handling... but soooo boring. all you'll ever get is understeer....

evo... there is no reason on earth to buy this car over a wrx. I have a much slower car that I drive the piss out of and I don't get to use its performance. torque is the point of turbo, and this one you gotta rev. reliability blows, and the functional wing is the sexual equivalent of lopping off an inch of mr. winky... and I don't mean it psychologically or of your ego. I mean driving one and being seen in it is as hot as walking up to a girl and telling her that you lopped an inch off. you'll look mental and sexually incompetent. yes its fast. gto, sir.

Any mustang other than the current model GT with as few options as possible. anything nicer spec is a waste of money. Anything older is only good for breaking the law in a straight line and burning gas. mods are cheap, but so will be your appearance. Anything lower spec is... a v6....which is slower than the GTI..... and I won't even begin to touch the fun factor between those two...

9/22/2007 9:48:11 AM

bullshit on the srt-4 comments.

dead nuts reliable
9 hrs to western pa non-stop, felt fine. drive 4 hrs a day for work in the summer, perfectly comfortable.
mopar bolt on performance that drives perfectly, and I still get 27-30mpg.
just doing basic handling stuff (wheels/tires/springs/sways/alignment) make it handle really well for a fwd car, add some coilovers and it's a lot of fun and can have very high limits.


I drive it like I want to keep it for a while. I have 49k miles on it right now, and don't plan to get rid of it for at least 4 more years. Even then I might just cage it and turn it into a track car.

The exhaust sound is a love/hate thing. At least it isn't a fart can on a 1.6l

9/22/2007 10:06:01 AM

^I respectfully retract my srt4 reliability comments.
Note: I am one of the few that really really watched to see if the caliber srt4 was going to be cool and now miss the neon for at least being a legit srt model and a bargain. the new car is just hp/$ but less for more and heavier. I anxiously await an srt-powered venom production model. that would be hot.

Note2: I know someone out there has an evo and a loud mouth. I don't care what your car can do. I can tell you what it can't do. It can't make both a 25 year old and his 85 year old grandma stop and stare simultaneously, or at least not with admiration. I hate your car, and I'm just casting my opinion here.

[Edited on September 22, 2007 at 10:17 AM. Reason : .]

9/22/2007 10:10:01 AM

Quote :

"evo... there is no reason on earth to buy this car over a wrx. I have a much slower car that I drive the piss out of and I don't get to use its performance. torque is the point of turbo, and this one you gotta rev. reliability blows, and the functional wing is the sexual equivalent of lopping off an inch of mr. winky... and I don't mean it psychologically or of your ego. I mean driving one and being seen in it is as hot as walking up to a girl and telling her that you lopped an inch off. you'll look mental and sexually incompetent. yes its fast. gto, sir."

I laughed....but then again it made no sense to me so not sure why i laughed.

9/22/2007 1:54:43 PM

GTO
WRX

9/22/2007 4:04:58 PM

mom found an fx45 in this price range

i'd pick that if i were him

9/22/2007 4:25:11 PM

^^^ i laughed, too...i mean, the car's looks have only grown on me to the point that i'm indifferent to them.

but saying that there's no reason to buy one over a WRX is retarded.


^ gayass crossover SUV. completely pointless.

9/22/2007 4:41:45 PM

hell i traded in my STi for one

9/22/2007 7:29:21 PM

yeah, i'm an STi fan--i think they look better, sound better, and have a nicer power delivery...but if you drive them back to back, there's just no contest as to which is a better sports car (and i use that term loosely, as neither of them are really a sports car).

a regular WRX is not only not in the same league, it's playing a completely different sport.

[Edited on September 22, 2007 at 8:19 PM. Reason : not hating on the WRX...think it's a neat ride for the price, but comparing it to an Evo? HAHA.]

9/22/2007 8:18:37 PM

Quote :

"evo... there is no reason on earth to buy this car over a wrx. I have a much slower car that I drive the piss out of and I don't get to use its performance. torque is the point of turbo, and this one you gotta rev. reliability blows, and the functional wing is the sexual equivalent of lopping off an inch of mr. winky... and I don't mean it psychologically or of your ego. I mean driving one and being seen in it is as hot as walking up to a girl and telling her that you lopped an inch off. you'll look mental and sexually incompetent. yes its fast. gto, sir. "

WRX? The one thats changed 3 styles in the same chassis run and then completely got scrapped for a mundane commuter look because its so god awful ugly? If ever a car was created that could possibly be more repulsive, appearance wise, then my evo its the WRX.

Rev for the turbo? If by "rev" you mean get past 3k RPM. Which given some of your other recommendations - G35 rofl - is pretty low.

I also kind of like how you're beasting the Evo's wing, as if the STI doesn't have a fucking 787 strapped to its ass either.

Or maybe you're talking about a WRX base - the car that suffers from the Evo and STI's terrible interiors, and suspect styling but adds to the table inadequate brakes and 1/2 the performance capacity.

Then again, you did just sell your 540i to pick up a VW Rabbit so I probably shouldn't be too surprised here.

9/22/2007 11:02:52 PM

Quote :

"Then again, you did just sell your 540i to pick up a VW Rabbit so I probably shouldn't be too surprised here."

wrong person, that's dannydigtl, who generally make intelligent posts.

danmangt40 just types paragraphs upon paragraphs of mindless ranting in an attempt to fool us into thinking that maybe the number of words in a post might equal knowledge (yeah, right). never really makes any sense, and when he does it's completely wrong.

i mean come on, this is opinions coming from a guy who thinks the lincoln ls is an impressive vehicle and claimed to be building his own supercar. LAWL!

i would respond to all of those completely laughable statements about all the cars above, but it would take me an hour. maybe later...




[Edited on September 22, 2007 at 11:25 PM. Reason : .]

9/22/2007 11:18:38 PM

don't be hatin the lincoln ls, i just bought one

but it was only bc i needed something decent on gas and one was available from a friend for well under the bluebook trade in value

9/22/2007 11:22:22 PM

Buy an airplane

9/22/2007 11:47:01 PM

^^^he's also the same guy that got his panties in a wad over the Evo being a good car etc etc etc

9/23/2007 2:29:37 AM

^^^^

spend the hour and do it...i have a feeling i'll get a good laugh out of it.

9/23/2007 3:24:10 AM

Doh! I didnt r read gud

9/23/2007 3:48:05 AM

i'll just hit the highlights.

Quote :

"I was in your position, and I "bought" an 06 Lincoln LS v8, but it's only pick 10 on this list b/c dad went in on it with me and he got to cast his opinion on what he believed was and wasn't safe."

you're still buying cars with daddy's money, yet expect us to take you seriously?

Quote :

"1st choice: GTO MASSIVE back seat."

massive to who? a midget? either you were riding behind one, or you are one. it's a nice size for a 2 door car, but massive it's not.

Quote :

"I drove an 06 6sp and I never got the damn thing into 4th for longer than 30 seconds. you do not need more than 4 gears in that car."

huh? yeah, we all want to go back to the days of no overdrive. i personally love spinning 3-4 grand at 65mph. get that real muscle car experience!

Quote :

"The gas-tank location is from the solstice/sky school of packaging, right in the middle of where you want to put shit."

right. since, of course, the solstice/sky were designed and produced prior to the gto.

Quote :

"gray with 7 spoke wheels and gold painted brembos. delicious."

gold? delicious? seriously?

Quote :

"I drove an 07 Outback and the only thing i could fault was that it rolled a little too much..."

it's a damn all terrain oriented AWD vehicle... wtf do you expect?

Quote :

"The magnum sounds better than the charger for some reason."

uh, sure. since both cars share the same exhaust...?

Quote :

"Magnum b/c the charger and magnum have better suspension with much less roll than the 300c"

wrong. they have the same suspensions, 300c's are just typically heavier from equipment.

Quote :

"high mileage cts-v. every shift into third bangs your knuckles into the ashtray"

you must have the hands of shrek or attempt to break the shifter with each shift. i've driven no less than 15-20 cts-v's, and never had this problem.

Quote :

"better shift quality than the gto too."

ORLY? that's interesting, considering they share the same drivetrain.

Quote :

"go drive one and wonder why bmw gets away with charging so much for a 5 series."

that's funny, i drove one and realized exactly why.

Quote :

"when was the last time you saw a sedan with real HIPS."

oh, hell i don't know... how about all the other sedans you mentioned, plus at least 5 more off the top of my head?

Quote :

"If you are someone who must blow money on mods, the only other cars on the page with close to as much stuff available are the subies and i suppose the m3,"

yeah, definitely. there's absolutely NO aftermarket for the LSx powered gto/cts-v.

Quote :

"please ignore the 03/04 cobra!"

are you serious? in the same paragraph you're reccomending an 07 gt, you're saying to ignore a car that pwns it in all performance aspects?

Quote :

"hardly any are stock either"

um, i've seen more stock ones that modified ones. this is a car i was considering buying, so i've looked at a large chunk of them.

Quote :

"there is no reason on earth to buy this car over a wrx"

sure, definitely not. only if you want a superior performing vehicle, but what kind of lame reason is that?

Quote :

"torque is the point of turbo"

haha! WHAT?

we're all happy that you're the guy car salesmen love to hate by constantly test driving cars. that doesn't make you a writer/tester for car and driver. to be fair, there was some stuff in there i agree with. i can only assume you stumbled on it by accident though, judging from the other ridiculousness.




[Edited on September 23, 2007 at 4:11 AM. Reason : .]

9/23/2007 4:06:40 AM

I dunno whether to reply to your itemized criticism list or just to bring it back to this:

pjwhite said:

Quote :

" 1) Reliability 2) Comfort (aka I'd rather have an wrx than an evo) 3) Performance - I want it to be pretty damn fast 4) Value "

That sounds like every car on my list and not the cars I've excluded (srt4 retracted... maybe), and I think in pretty sensible order, and mostly for the reasons I've stated. whether or not I overlooked a car in some subsection (do you really think I don't know of the GTO's aftermarket?) or whether my driving impressions are shades of gray relative to the overall impression that a car offers, or between different models or similar or directly comparable cars (WRX/STI/Evo, E36M3/E46330i/E46M3, ChryslerLXs, GTO/CTSV), I think I gave a pretty direct response. I even made a concerted attempt to minimize my gushing over my own car to a single part of the response even though I feel it meets the above VERY well. Also, although I'm not about to claim my car is as quick as most of these cars, its very comparable to a GTI if not a little quicker, and I certainly made no claim that it was a performance car.

And it shouldn't matter to anyone that my dad helped me out in buying my car. I only mentioned it to explain how my own shopping weighed priorities differently from what this man is doing. If I could have shopped in that price bracket for that type of car, I'd probably say "damn the backseat" and would be drivng an M Coupe. If you've got a problem with that, then I guess you just don't empathize very well or think debt is cool

9/23/2007 9:42:24 AM

clearly since my civic beat an M3 on the street the other day all civics are faster than all M3s.



[Edited on September 23, 2007 at 9:50 AM. Reason : ]

9/23/2007 9:49:52 AM

bbr, i agree with you on every comment but


"torque is the point of turbo"

haha! WHAT?


as i've said befor a turbo can be sized for anything... fuck if you wanted you could make one spool under 1000rpm but if you went over 3-4 k it would choke out.

people who change turbos or add turbos to n/a cars usually aren't looking for work but...
an engine like a 1.8t vw the turbo is sized for torque not hp... (compare 1.8t to type R honda)
both get arount 190 hp but one has shit-tons more torque.


wrx stock turbo more boost



now tell me what that has more of hp or torque ?

9/23/2007 9:57:07 AM

Quote :

"clearly since my civic beat an M3 on the street the other day all civics are faster than all M3s."

amen.

exactly why i stopped replying here.

9/23/2007 11:37:15 AM

i shouldn't be allowed to post before noon

9/23/2007 1:03:56 PM

Quote :

"(WRX/STI/Evo"

You forgot to include the Lancer. If you are throwing the WRX in the same group as STI's and Evo's...then that means the Lancer belongs there too.

9/23/2007 1:34:17 PM

4wd 230 hp
4wd 300 hp
4wd 263 hp
fwd 150 hp?

9/23/2007 1:52:37 PM

i think there may be a turbo lancer on the way to compete with the wrx

but yeah... dumb comment.

[Edited on September 23, 2007 at 2:16 PM. Reason : .]

9/23/2007 2:13:33 PM

^^263? who's got 263 hp?

you are like every ricer on the street. If your HP is in triple digits you got a fast car! just because a WRX has 200+ HP doesn't mean it belongs anywhere NEAR a STI or Evo.

if you are trying to imply that the Evo has 263hp then try again, dumbass....286 hp. you are more than 20 hp off!

[Edited on September 23, 2007 at 2:47 PM. Reason : fda]

9/23/2007 2:44:59 PM

HAY ALL YOU BENCH RACERS. QUIT THIS BS ABOUT HP AND TORK.

NO ONE CARES.

THE NIGGER JUST WANTS A CAR THAT HAS ALL 4 AND YOU FAGS ARE HERE ALL BIASED BECAUSE YOU DRIVE SOME SHITBOX THAT YOU THINK WILL OUT PERFORM ANY OTHER CAR.

GET A LIFE

AND A HONDA

9/23/2007 3:01:15 PM

ahahahahahaha

9/23/2007 3:58:51 PM

You bought a Lincoln LS.

I think your opinions are pretty much void.

9/23/2007 4:01:55 PM

heaven forbid someone forget the specs to a totally irrelevant machine. watch this:
"oops, excuse me. I typed the incorrect hp."

9/23/2007 4:13:34 PM

honestly,

some of you kids on here rely on hp and tq way too much

9/23/2007 4:16:16 PM

hey, what's a center diff for? for people who have no idea how to hang the rear end out.
hey, what's a car with its engine sideways called? sideways
hey, what's active yaw control for? for when you crashed your subaru

9/23/2007 4:18:34 PM

ammend a... for people with too much hp for two wheels ( i know... much more rare than the other case)

9/23/2007 4:22:25 PM

im gonna go with some detroit muscle

9/23/2007 4:45:50 PM