People who are pro-life should be legally obliged to adopt a poor unwanted baby.

10/4/2007 1:40:20 PM

Just Say No!

to non-procreative sex with prolifers

I won't fuck a prolife chick

not with condom

not when she's on the pill

not with a gallon of spermicide

not even in the ass

well, maybe in the ass

10/4/2007 2:29:12 PM

Quote :

"People who are pro-life should be legally obliged to adopt a poor unwanted"

you arent serious are you?

10/4/2007 2:37:18 PM

You force your morals on us, we force our unwanted babies.

10/4/2007 3:00:41 PM

^aka force YOUR responsibilities onto others. Seems to be very popular way of thinking these days.

10/4/2007 3:11:02 PM

Wrong. You force responsibilities on others because of YOUR moral code which is outdated and allows for no deviations or exceptions. I am responsible and realize if I make a mistake I should take care of it and not make a worse decision for my life and several that surround me.

So if you want to force something onto me that I am not prepared nor ready for then YOU must take responsibility for the implications of YOUR moral code.

10/4/2007 3:41:17 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9WmKre5O2I&mode=related&search=

10/4/2007 4:02:34 PM

Quote :

"even if it is murder, it's not the proper role of government to intervene; women will still do it, albeit unsafely btw, GTFO of this thread with that crap "

that is fucking retarded.

If I came to NC and whacked your whole family, would you feel it the proper role of government to intervene?

Of course.

The real question is whether or not abortion is murder. That depends on whether or not you consider a fetus a human life, and if so, at what point?

The argument that it's not a human life because it's unborn doesn't hold any water. At some point before birth, abortion should no longer be an option on the table.

That leads people to draw the line at conception, because it's the only other clearly defined mark in the gestational period. It's an easy, convenient place to draw the line.

I happen to think the answer lies somewhere in the middle, which is why I'm OK with RU-486 abortions, but generally not once the surgical variety is needed (with the exception of endangerment of the mother's life).

Quote :

"Debt is neither good nor bad--it is simply a tool. The return on debt is what matters."

even as a fiscal conservative, i do agree here.

I just don't agree that it's OK to spend the way we're doing it right now.

10/4/2007 4:18:58 PM

^ Agreed.

But that sort of gray-area outlook isn't a strong suit with social conservatives.

10/4/2007 4:23:19 PM

Quote :

"If you accept that we (prolife peoples) believe abortion is murder then you should not be at all surprised it becomes a pivotal issue for us."

I'm sorry, I'm not questioning your (mathman) personal dedication to this issue at all, but I've dealt with way too many hypocritical American Christians to go along with this.

The real debate isn't, "is murder bad" we all agree that it is wrong. The real debate, philosophical and theological, is what constitutes "human-life". What is it that makes us human? Is it a specific genetic code, is it consiousness, is it the metaphysical concept of the soul? I have wrestled with this one for quite some time and have yet to come up with a solid answer.

What I do know, is that the "religious right," while composed largely of honest-to-God well-meaning and hard working people, has been lead by a stream of hypocritical leaders and have, in many cases, become wrapped up in a confused mixture of Capitalism, Patriotism, and Religiosity that isn't remotely near the Gospel that Jesus preached.

10/4/2007 4:48:45 PM

Back on topic:

http://www.townhall.com/blog/g/9d91fc63-33f2-4a59-aa84-059ec77acaa9

Quote :

"I just got off the phone with a senior conservative consultant who has spent the morning working the phones to social conservative leaders who have pledged not to support a Rudy Giuliani candidacy, should he win the GOP nomination. According to my source, these conservative leaders have narrowed the field of alternatives. I’m told that former AL Chief Justice Roy Moore will be the first choice if Rudy is the nominee (there were rumblings about him in ‘04, but he was talked out of it to run for governor). ... Alan Keyes, according to my source, is the fall back … Apparently, they are leaning against running either Gary Bauer or Howard Phillips (Dr. Dobson reportedly voted for Phillips in ‘96 as the Constitution candidate), though they are on the list … The vehicle will most likely be the Constitution Party. Update - 4:36: Marc Ambinder says "A Third Party's An Empty Threat." Update - 5:54 - The AP reports that Dr. Dobson "is not yet participating in any planning for a third party ... Update: 8:38 PM- I had the chance to interview Richard Viguerie, who actually attended the conclave. He tells me Roy Moore's name was never mentioned. "

So either idle threat to scare the GOP or someone at the meeting was lying.

10/4/2007 7:10:41 PM

Quote :

"Wrong. You force responsibilities on others because of YOUR moral code which is outdated and allows for no deviations or exceptions. I am responsible and realize if I make a mistake I should take care of it and not make a worse decision for my life and several that surround me. So if you want to force something onto me that I am not prepared nor ready for then YOU must take responsibility for the implications of YOUR moral code. "

Look man, Im prochoice, but to pretend that someone is FORCING responsiblities onto you for an act you willingly commited and knew of potential consquences and THEN acting like its someone else fault is a bit much. Its YOUR child and YOUR responsiblity.. period. I do realize that mistakes happen and in sometimes terminating a birth is the right thing at that time. However, it should never be a form of birth control and it should not be allowed late term at all. If you cant make up your fucking mind by then, then have the fucking kid and give it up. I think the morning after pill is the solution to alot of this. I just take offense to the one should be forced to pay for my bad decisions attitude that is spreading in our society.

10/4/2007 10:18:07 PM

Quote :

"Wrong. You force responsibilities on others because of YOUR moral code which is outdated and allows for no deviations or exceptions. I am responsible and realize if I make a mistake I should take care of it and not make a worse decision for my life and several that surround me. So if you want to force something onto me that I am not prepared nor ready for then YOU must take responsibility for the implications of YOUR moral code."

I swear it sounds like you are rationalizing killing an annoying wife.

Quote :

"I'm sorry, I'm not questioning your (mathman) personal dedication to this issue at all, but I've dealt with way too many hypocritical American Christians to go along with this. The real debate isn't, "is murder bad" we all agree that it is wrong. The real debate, philosophical and theological, is what constitutes "human-life". What is it that makes us human? Is it a specific genetic code, is it consiousness, is it the metaphysical concept of the soul? I have wrestled with this one for quite some time and have yet to come up with a solid answer. What I do know, is that the "religious right," while composed largely of honest-to-God well-meaning and hard working people, has been lead by a stream of hypocritical leaders and have, in many cases, become wrapped up in a confused mixture of Capitalism, Patriotism, and Religiosity that isn't remotely near the Gospel that Jesus preached."

yes, exactly, so I compactly state my argument by saying that abortion is murder. This is my way of telling you that the unborn baby is a human which is completely as deserving (if not more) of protection and the expectation of nonviolence from others. I realize this is debated, I'm just unwilling to cede the point by using your terminology. It is murder. I will call it such.

Obviously defining human life is difficult. However, lack of a definition is by no means an indication that there is not such a thing as human life. It is just that the totality of human existence cannot be
finitely delineated by humans. I think wrestling with the issue is healthy rational thought, however I think that to deny what are likely humans the same ethical protections we enjoy is unwise. Most of the arguments against valuing the life of the unborn can just as well be turned against retarded folks, or the old, or well... we've all seen Logan's Run I suppose.

As far as hypocritical leaders go I think all ideologies have their share. But to say that the die-hard one issue antiabortion crowd are simply misled is to miss completely the movement. We are against it because we think its wrong, not because some politician said so. The politicians simply recognize this common sentiment and pretend to agree (or possibly agree, I can't say I don't know their hearts)

I will agree that patriotism, capitalism and self-righteousness should not be encouraged by the church as official positions. Of course in the case of self-righteousness it's just wrong. In the other two cases it is debatable depending on the country and what you mean by it, certainly some protection of the poor from unfair practices of the richer classes is suggested by scripture, on the other hand if a man does not work he should not eat, so where do you draw the line. I am pretty sure there are more important issues to discuss in church.

Abortion on the other hand is not really debatable if you accept scripture.

10/4/2007 11:37:18 PM

^ sounds like you are against all abortions, all the time as a result of the indeterminateness of when we have a human life on our hands--you are taking the most conservative (and i don't mean that in terms of left/right politics) position on the issue, because we can't be sure.

that's a position that i can respect. i don't agree with you, but i respect that position.

however, that would make abortion more akin to manslaughter or wrongful death than murder.

Quote :

"Abortion on the other hand is not really debatable if you accept scripture."

Only if you define human life to begin at conception.

Quote :

"(Dr. Dobson reportedly voted for Phillips in ‘96 as the Constitution candidate), though they are on the list …"

I don't see how the Constitution Party--which you would think would be for strict, uhhh, Constitutionalism--has the social agenda that they do. I guess the Libertarians are the only real Constitutionalists.

10/5/2007 12:43:29 AM

If nothing else I consider abortion to be beneficial from a socio-economic issue. If nothing else it lowers the % of "undesirables" being born in the US. Let's face it; statistically it is the lower income and/or less intelligent population that is more likely to be 15 and pregnant. Honestly, i do not want that dumb bitch raising another ignorant poor American that will add an additional drain to our society. Maybe if she has that abortion there might be the slim chance that she learns form her mistakes; continues on to higher education; makes something of herself; then finally gets married and has a happy nuclear family.

I read some book can't remember the name it was like Strange Economics but one issue it discussed was how if abortion were outlawed the effect would be most detriment on the lower classes and causes more problems in our society.

From a morale stand point I do not see how a embryo that is not viable outside the womb can be considered life protected by the same laws that protects all of us. If your mother threatens to kill you Protective Services can come in and take you out of the home. This is not the case with a 5 week old fetus. I do have some morale issues though with those that weight till a good way through the 2nd trimester and espicially the 3rd trimester. By this point you should know whats up and it should not take you that long to decide on what to do.

At the very least I do not understand how "pro-lifers" do not agree with abortions for those who get raped or when the baby poses a severe health hazard to the mothers life. I would laugh if abortion got outlawed then the next week some "pro lifer"'s girlfriend gets raped by some big thug on the street walking back from the bar off of glenwood. Oh Snap! Looks like you will be raising the gangster's kid that isn't yours.

[Edited on October 5, 2007 at 1:40 AM. Reason : l]

10/5/2007 1:39:33 AM

Quote :

"that's a position that i can respect. i don't agree with you, but i respect that position."

agreed

Quote :

"Abortion on the other hand is not really debatable if you accept scripture."

Perhaps, but federal and / or state law isn't and should be based on scripture.

10/5/2007 1:47:42 AM

Death Knell for the GOP? No way.

There will always be a place for a party that doubles gov't spending while calling itself fiscal conservatives.

10/5/2007 10:44:07 AM

Yeah I am pretty sick of both parties. Conservatives always bitch about democrats raising taxes and gov't spending on social welfare programs. When you actually look at what the republicans have done lately they have actually increased government spending over the last few years. Instead of helping the common American people instead of having a more hands off approach they actually tweak the tax codes and gov't budgets to benefit all their rich buddies and corporate friends.

I am all for lower taxes and not turning the gov't into a welfare state; but I am not down with legislation that helps the friends of George Bush and Co. while fucking over the middle class.

10/5/2007 11:32:18 AM

Quote :

"yes, exactly, so I compactly state my argument by saying that abortion is murder. This is my way of telling you that the unborn baby is a human which is completely as deserving (if not more) of protection and the expectation of nonviolence from others. I realize this is debated, I'm just unwilling to cede the point by using your terminology. It is murder. I will call it such."

so then what happens if that fetus is going to kill the mother

you wouldnt support abortion in that situation?

which leads to the question who has more rights: the fetus or the mother?

and then what happens if the mother refuses prenatal care? she can, its her body, or is it?

mandated prenatal care? sounds like bullshit if you ask me

your definition makes the situation worse, not better, especially with the consequences of giving more rights to a fetus than a person

[Edited on October 5, 2007 at 11:37 AM. Reason : 

10/5/2007 11:33:38 AM

Quote :

"You mean like Saddam Hussein? Or do you mean insurgents? Or do you mean the Taleban? Or Al-Quaeda? Or do you mean our own citizens? Oh wait, you only care about babies, right."

so, what you are saying is that you don't care about babies. got it. THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!

Quote :

"even if it is murder, it's not the proper role of government to intervene; women will still do it, albeit unsafely"

are you really saying that you are OK with allowing MURDER? is that what you are saying? because that's what that statement means... and if it's not the proper role of the government to intervene to stop MURDER, then when, tell me, is it OK for the gov't to intervene to protect constitutionally protected rights?

Quote :

"Most republicans I know want the republican party to return to a stance of conservative government and not pushing their morality on others."

forgive me if I'm wrong here, but isn't saying that abortion shouldn't be illegal an example of YOU pushing YOUR morality on other people? I'm just sayin... (assuming for the sake of argument that you are pro-murderchoice)

Quote :

"So if you want to force something onto me that I am not prepared nor ready for then YOU must take responsibility for the implications of YOUR moral code."

maybe you should have thought about that before you went and engaged in an activity that is statistically proven to lead to pregnancy... AKA, taken responsibility FOR YOUR OWN FUCKING SELF. crazy, I know... and, refer to my previous statement about "Morality"

Quote :

"What I do know, is that the "religious right," while composed largely of honest-to-God well-meaning and hard working people, has been lead by a stream of hypocritical leaders and have, in many cases, become wrapped up in a confused mixture of Capitalism, Patriotism, and Religiosity that isn't remotely near the Gospel that Jesus preached."

so then, because some people on the issue are crazed lunatics, we should clearly not even consider protecting innocent people from being murdered... got it.

Quote :

"statistically it is the lower income and/or less intelligent population that is more likely to be 15 and pregnant."

actually, statistically, that 15 and pregnant girl is likely to go ahead and have that baby because she still has no other choice. Most women that I know who have had an abortion were the rich daddy's little girl types, and the parents had to get rid of the baby to avoid embarrassment.

Quote :

"Maybe if she has that abortion there might be the slim chance that she learns form her mistakes; continues on to higher education; makes something of herself; then finally gets married and has a happy nuclear family."

Maybe if abortion were illegal, she might think about how she uses sex so flippantly and she would practice safe sex or abstinence so as to avoid a pregnancy. Then maybe we could have less STDs and finally curb AIDS in America. And then maybe pigs will fly and I can throw more pie-in-the-sky ideas out there with little to no proof to back them up...

Quote :

"If your mother threatens to kill you Protective Services can come in and take you out of the home. This is not the case with a 5 week old fetus."

Only because abortion is legal, though...

Quote :

"At the very least I do not understand how "pro-lifers" do not agree with abortions for those who get raped or when the baby poses a severe health hazard to the mothers life."

given that very few pro-lifers are against abortion in the RARE CASE of rape and danger to health, I think your strawman is quite useless...

Quote :

"When you actually look at what the republicans have done lately they have actually increased government spending over the last few years."

hey, thanks for noticing what real conservatives have known for years now: The current Republicans are NOT conservative. welcome to 2003.

Quote :

"your definition makes the situation worse, not better, especially with the consequences of giving more rights to a fetus than a person"

it's not an issue of giving the fetus more rights. it's an issue of giving it rights, period, which it currently doesn't have.

10/5/2007 10:24:13 PM

Quote :

"theDuke866 sounds like you are against all abortions, all the time as a result of the indeterminateness of when we have a human life on our hands--you are taking the most conservative (and i don't mean that in terms of left/right politics) position on the issue, because we can't be sure. that's a position that i can respect. i don't agree with you, but i respect that position. however, that would make abortion more akin to manslaughter or wrongful death than murder."

Well I don't personally believe it is indeterminant, I think it is most logical to suppose it begins at conception. However, I was pointing out that if you believed it was indeterminant it would be wiser to err on the side of caution because the stakes are very high here, human life verses a life inconvenienced.

As to the punishment for killing an unborn child I think it should be different for different circumstances just like with killing an adult. It depends on the intent or lack of intent etc...

Quote :

"theDuke866 Only if you define human life to begin at conception."

and I do, the account of Jesus and John the Baptist sensing each other before birth is one example, of course that might have been in a later trimester... Really I extrapolate back to conception on the basis of modern biology, how it works DNA and all that.

Quote :

"HUR At the very least I do not understand how "pro-lifers" do not agree with abortions for those who get raped or when the baby poses a severe health hazard to the mothers life. I would laugh if abortion got outlawed then the next week some "pro lifer"'s girlfriend gets raped by some big thug on the street walking back from the bar off of glenwood. Oh Snap! Looks like you will be raising the gangster's kid that isn't yours."

pretty much nobody opposes abortion when the life of the mother is in jeopardy. This was not illegal even before Roe. V. Wade. As far as rape goes I am opposed to abortion in that case as well simply because the unborn child should not be punished for the wrong action of the rapist. Two wrongs don't make a right, even if it is convenient to the life of the mother. There are plenty of children of rape who have grown up to be viable members of society.

Quote :

"JCASHFAN Perhaps, but federal and / or state law isn't and should be based on scripture. "

no, but it should be reflective of the desire of the population of the US. This is a democracy in some limited sense. Should we strike down any law that can be supported by scripture ? Many can.

Quote :

"Aficionado so then what happens if that fetus is going to kill the mother you wouldnt support abortion in that situation? which leads to the question who has more rights: the fetus or the mother? and then what happens if the mother refuses prenatal care? she can, its her body, or is it? mandated prenatal care? sounds like bullshit if you ask me your definition makes the situation worse, not better, especially with the consequences of giving more rights to a fetus than a person"

I think mandated prenatal care is a horrible idea, it should be left to the parents how to raise their own children... of course when crazy parents want to kill their children with poison punch or whatever else then government should intervene but this is only in extreme circumstances.

Abortion is just such a circumstance, it is the ultimate form of child abuse.

As I have said before and will say again I am not against abortion in the case that the life of the mother is in danger as a direct result of the pregnancy, this has never been a point of debate and as such is completely beside the point. Yet every single abortion thread I can recall has included this point which goes to show how poor each side understands the other, or more likely the abundance of trolls on TWW.

10/6/2007 2:14:50 PM

Quote :

"she would practice safe sex or abstinence so as to avoid a pregnancy"

yeah and maybe if we put every kid through DARE and maintain the war on drugs everyone will stop smoking pot and using other
narcotics

Quote :

"I am opposed to abortion in that case as well simply because the unborn child should not be punished for the wrong action of the rapist."

Well I hope your woman gets raped by bubba and have fun raising bubba's child who has the gene's of a rapist.
This attitude would be the reason that 10,000 years ago your genes would have been cut by natural selection.
You would let a more dominant male fuck your girl then she comes back to you for support. Dominant males genes live on
and you provide for the mother.

I am sure the collection of cells that has had minimal development of a brain really cares what is going on.

I understand the pro-life argument. It blows my mind, however, that the hardcore pro-lifers do not even agree with abortion in the case of non-consensual forced conception such as rape. The crime is bad enough but immoral in my mind is making the woman have to go through 9 months of pregnancy with her rape-trophy. Your view is straight up ass. I am sure all those woman in Darfur are overjoyed taking care of their "bundles of joy" conceived when they were raped by a bunch of marauding Muslim militia-men



[Edited on October 6, 2007 at 2:39 PM. Reason : l]

10/6/2007 2:27:20 PM

Quote :

"forgive me if I'm wrong here, but isn't saying that abortion shouldn't be illegal an example of YOU pushing YOUR morality on other people? I'm just sayin... (assuming for the sake of argument that you are pro-murderchoice)"

Giving people a choice, as opposed to not giving them a choice, is in no way forcing anything upon them aside from free will. You are completely wrong. But I forgive you.

Quote :

"I think mandated prenatal care is a horrible idea, it should be left to the parents how to raise their own children."

Should drinking and smoking among pregnant women be illegal?

10/6/2007 8:08:50 PM

^ I'd say no, but again my view is that the government should only intervene in cases of extreme child abuse, like abortion. Alcohol and/or tobacco may or may not harm the child, abortion certainly will.

10/6/2007 11:15:33 PM

Quote :

"It blows my mind, however, that the hardcore pro-lifers do not even agree with abortion in the case of non-consensual forced conception such as rape. The crime is bad enough but immoral in my mind is making the woman have to go through 9 months of pregnancy with her rape-trophy. Your view is straight up ass. I am sure all those woman in Darfur are overjoyed taking care of their "bundles of joy" conceived when they were raped by a bunch of marauding Muslim militia-men"

I agree, it's completely absurd that they'd want to literally force a woman in that case to carry a baby to term that they had from being raped.

I guess they would lump long-term psychological damage in with "inconvenience" too.

[Edited on October 6, 2007 at 11:29 PM. Reason : ]

10/6/2007 11:28:34 PM

Quote :

"I'd say no, but again my view is that the government should only intervene in cases of extreme child abuse, like abortion. Alcohol and/or tobacco may or may not harm the child, abortion certainly will."

What if there were some drug or activity that had, say, a 40% chance of killing the fetus. Should the government outlaw that? What if it's 60%?

10/6/2007 11:57:22 PM

Quote :

"Alcohol and/or tobacco may or may not harm the child"

so... not only do you hate America, you hate scientific facts as well?

10/7/2007 1:57:03 AM

Quote :

"moron I guess they would lump long-term psychological damage in with "inconvenience" too."

And you don't think that abortion causes long term psychological damage to the mom ? I've heard otherwise from those who council such women. It's a bad situation anyway you look at it, but abortion is no solution.

Quote :

"spöokyjon What if there were some drug or activity that had, say, a 40% chance of killing the fetus. Should the government outlaw that? What if it's 60%?"

depends on the circumstances. If some mom accidentally left her kids in some room where ammonia and bleach somehow ended mixed and then the resulting toxic gases killed the kids I'd probably not even be inclined to prosecute her because her intent was not to kill the kids. On the other hand if she intentionally mixed the cleaners to kill the kids and it was somehow clear from the evidence, testimonies etc... then I would prosecute her.

Same for the unborn child. If a mom accidentally killed the child by taking the wrong antibiotic or fungal cream or whatever (essentially happened to a relative of mine) then I would not prosecute. On the other hand if she sought out a medicine with the intent of killing the unborn then I would be inclined to prosecute her.

Of course these prosecutions face all the same difficulties that the prosecutions of adult murders face, beyond a reasonable doubt etc...

It would be difficult to completely list every possible course of legal action, to summarize I simply reason that since the unborn is just as human as you or I it should enjoy the same legal protections as we do.

Quote :

"joe_schmoe so... not only do you hate America, you hate scientific facts as well? "

sorry, I missed where science has proven that every single mom who uses alcohol or tobacco necessarily harms the unborn child. It wasn't so long ago that it was the norm for many women to use both, I'm not saying it's wise to use them, I'm just saying it does not automatically harm the child. But you knew that anyway, I shouldn't feed the joe_troll.

10/7/2007 6:40:28 PM

Hmmm... I wonder which caused more psychological damage to a woman after being raped which forced an unwanted conception.

Having an abortion of the rapists bastard child

or

Living through 9 months of pregnancy with a child that was conceived in non-consensual sex. Then having to raise the baby of a man that raped you for 18 years or giving the baby you had carried with you for 9 months to adoption.

10/7/2007 7:10:00 PM