2

12/14/2007 1:25:43 PM

Quote :

"Cary has some of the most restrictive zoning laws in the nation. Its also ranked as the #1 place to live. Coincidence?"

Have you ever been to Cary?

12/14/2007 1:29:16 PM

Quote :

"In the end though, there wouldn't be 3 McDonalds, 3 burger kings, 3 taco bells, a hardees, wendy's, Dream Burgers, Chick-Fil-A, Grease Pit, Charcoal Dispensers etc etc etc if people didn't eat there. But people do. And the reason for that, is that people move from where they live (which has 50 fast food joints per block) to someplace "nice" and then bitch and whine that they have to travel further than a block to get their Gease Burger fix. If the people didn't want it, and didn't eat there, they would go out of business."

my mind SCREAMED when I read this

12/14/2007 1:33:12 PM

Local governments have every right to guide growth take away your property rights.

12/14/2007 1:44:10 PM

I wonder if this ban would cover chains like In-and-Out or Baja Fresh, or if this would simply be considered a local restaurant and given a bye. I guess I'm just curious as to what they define as fast food. From the sound of the article, it seems you cover a really large swath of restaurants, not just your local McDonald's.

Quote :

""any establishment which dispenses food for consumption on or off the premises, and which has the following characteristics: a limited menu, items prepared in advance or prepared or heated quickly, no table orders, and food served in disposable wrapping or containers.""

12/14/2007 1:50:31 PM

Quote :

"if people didn't eat there. But people do. And the reason for that"

well this just illustrates the issue that many people are stupid and lazy hence the current obesity epidemic.

Quote :

"Directly Elected Local governments have every right to take away your property rightscreate zoning laws with the consensus of majority opinion"

A lot of town governments even have open council meetings where you can sit in and some cases vote. The majority of people within a municipal don't want their property values lowered and the other negative effects of having a McD's on every block. Maybe I should buy a small plot of land next to your house and turn it into a junk yard. Last time i checked the constitution did not give businesses absolute rights to put up shop wherever they please. Just like how the 2nd amendment does not prevent State gov't from creating gun restrictions or explicitly state that I can mount a M2 to my car's hood.

If you want to bitch about zoning laws go visit Stallings Union country; right below Charlotte. This will give you a new respect for zoning laws.

[Edited on December 14, 2007 at 2:22 PM. Reason : a]

[Edited on December 14, 2007 at 2:24 PM. Reason : a]

12/14/2007 2:17:36 PM

The reason for the fast food restaurants being everywhere is not because of demand, rather, the franchising fees are so low that it is the simplest means of "starting" a business.

^^^As for this property rights bullshit, you do not have unlimited rights on your property. This is the problem with libertarians, they do not understand the concept of society

[Edited on December 14, 2007 at 2:50 PM. Reason : clarify for hur]

12/14/2007 2:41:57 PM

Nice fucking red herring.

I am a libertarian and I support democracy. Your right to turn the 1.2 acre plot next to my house into a garbage dump, hog farm, Quik-E-Mart, interferes with my liberty to purchase land and not have its value plummet and to raise my family in a clean environment. Citizens coming together or electing council representatives to create zoning laws ensures that my actions do not effect the liberty and rights of those around me thus upholding the libertarian ideals.

12/14/2007 2:48:39 PM

I wasn't attacking you, I was referencing the comments made earlier in the thread about taking away property rights.

12/14/2007 2:49:51 PM

oh ok

12/14/2007 2:52:22 PM

Quote :

"The reason for the fast food restaurants being everywhere is not because of demand, rather, the franchising fees are so low that it is the simplest means of "starting" a business. "

Someone still has to buy the food to keep them in business. These places don't grow money in the grease bins.

Quote :

"interferes with my liberty to purchase land and not have its value plummet and to raise my family in a clean environment."

You have no right to ever rising property values, just like the McDonalds has no right to profits and if you and others decide not to eat there, they would go out of business. A clean environment is a different matter, but even that has it's limits.

Besides, we're not talking about zoning so that factories aren't being built next to homes, we're talking deciding that in the areas zoned for business, certain businesses are not going to be allowed because the people are too retarded to not eat there every meal every day. You and the people around you have a choice in this matter. No one is forcing you to go to McDonalds and thereby provide them with the funds to stay in business.

[Edited on December 14, 2007 at 3:10 PM. Reason : asdf]

12/14/2007 3:06:48 PM

Quote :

"The majority of people within a municipal don't want their property values lowered "

Then these people can create a HOA, which does not trample the rights of those who agree to it and can raise property values.

I bet you'd be singing a different tune if the majority of the people in this municipal didn't want black people living there. A majority has no right to vote away the rights of a minority.

12/14/2007 3:29:52 PM

well i have the right to vote for members of the city council and support them in telling McD's to take their Fat Food elsewehre

12/14/2007 3:35:49 PM

i'm guessing they dont have many grocery stores in south central LA to buy healthy food...so before anyone says they should stop eating fast unhealthy food, and save money buy cooking healthy meals, remember that

you eat what you are provided

12/14/2007 4:04:21 PM

maybe they are trying to promote local restaurants who can't compete against huge conglamartes like McD's on every corner

12/14/2007 4:06:56 PM

they should stop asian people from opening restaurants in the ghetto. Those are all independent and way worse than fast food places.

[Edited on December 14, 2007 at 4:22 PM. Reason : !]

12/14/2007 4:21:07 PM

^^ Why can't they compete? If they are giving the people what they want, then they should most certainly be able to compete. Just because the franchise owner has a big corporate logo on his front door doesn't make him immune to the effects of demand.

Furthermore, it's an awfuly broad ban if they're just looking to keep out corporate giants. Off the top of my head, the following found around the campus here would be banned under this:

Amorés
Melvins
Sakura's
Snoopy's
Cookout
Champs
China Pearl
Sylvia's
Shanghai Express
Golden Dragon

and then some of the larger, but still nice places
Zaxby's
I :heart: NY
Brugers
that wings place that opened in mission valley

12/14/2007 6:31:20 PM

Quote :

"If they are giving the people what they want,"

apparently not if the Directly elected leaders of this area voted to have them removed. This is the president ; as a mayor or city council rep I am damn sure they would be sensitive to the wants of the people

12/14/2007 6:52:19 PM

Quote :

"If they are giving the people what they want, then they should most certainly be able to compete."

Well, one might argue that strip clubs and bars give people what they want, but the city is still (quite rightfully) judicious in where it puts them.

I just don't see the distinction between this and any other zoning law. You act like it's some new class of infringement on personal liberty. It's not. The people elect city councils to decide on, among other things, the overall makeup and physical layout of their city. It's an inherently social and political process.

What's the problem? For every objection you raise, it just comes down to your personal belief that fast food is OK and theirs that it's bad. But it's not like you live in L.A. or anywhere near it. As I've said before here -- federalism works. Yay! NC has its values, California has theirs. Go Libertarian utopia!

12/14/2007 8:43:02 PM

I guess accept why people would want to influence such things.

However, I can't stand the way it works currently. Zoning laws and city ordinances often make local officials into tiny tyrants. If you must do it, do it without the hierarchy.

[Edited on December 14, 2007 at 8:54 PM. Reason : epic fail]

12/14/2007 8:50:09 PM

Quote :

"If you want to bitch about zoning laws go visit Stallings Union country; right below Charlotte. This will give you a new respect for zoning laws."

Having lived in Union County, I will definitely agree there.

12/14/2007 9:07:55 PM

Quote :

"However, I can't stand the way it works currently. Zoning laws and city ordinances often make local officials into tiny tyrants"

says the guy that their is nothing wrong with a criminal walking into your house and taking your tv

As long as he doesn't threaten your bodily health then material property don't matter.

12/14/2007 9:40:13 PM

As long as it's just a dude, sure.

I don't want the bosses doing it, or telling folks what to do.

Consistency.

(By the way, HUR, where do you live? I'm curious.)

12/14/2007 9:51:31 PM

Statements such as the following are foolish at best: "Someone still has to buy the food to keep them in business. These places don't grow money in the grease bins."

The fast food establishments promote run down areas, and that is the problem. When given the choice between easy, cheap, shitty food or otherwise, they will choose the former. This leads to run down communities that support themselves, and just continually grow. It doesn't take much to support these areas. A few fast food joints, a Gas n' Go, and a Wal-Mart 5 miles away.

This whole argument reminds me of year round schools. Districts that implement them meet stiff resistance from parents. After they are implemented, the support for year round schools grows tremendously in those areas after they see how it works.

While it is easy to say that government is trying to take away our rights and micromanage us, the truth is that people don't know what the hell they want / need. Zoning restrictions by local governments are far from unreasonable.

12/15/2007 12:17:39 AM

how did a debate about fast food turn into about year around schools. Just out of curiosity what are the benefits of year around school. I dont have children so i really couldn't give a fuck.

Quote :

"By the way, HUR, where do you live? I'm curious."

why so you can steal my shit since you do not beleive in property rights??

12/15/2007 2:54:53 AM

No, that's not it all.

This thread's about zoning. How does zoning work in your area?

12/15/2007 11:44:28 AM

Quote :

" When given the choice between easy, cheap, shitty food or otherwise, they will choose the former. "

Quote :

" the truth is that people don't know what the hell they want / need."

Sounds to me like the people know exactly what they want. Easy, cheap and shitty. As far as needs, the only thing you NEED is food and shelter. Everything else is a luxury.

In the end, it's up to the people. Stop buying fast food, stop buying at wal-mart and they go away. Remember these are evil soulless corporations, they only see the bottom line and if that bottom line is in the red, they will go away.

12/15/2007 11:48:55 AM

Quote :

"why so you can steal my shit since you do not beleive in property rights??"

It never ceases to amaze me that you can say things like this and still be OK with downloading music that you have not paid for.

12/15/2007 12:00:40 PM

To be fair, intellectual property rights are completely different.

If I stole HUR's TV, as he thinks I want to, he would no longer be able to use it. However, if I copied a song of his, we'd both still be able to listen to the song.

While people should compensated for work, current intellectual property rights laws are utterly absurd.

12/15/2007 12:12:15 PM

Artists should not be compensated for the time and effort they put into their art?

12/15/2007 12:21:49 PM

you are neglecting the RIAA lawsuits solely goes to the RIAA board members. ^ its arguable that the economics are negligible. not to admit that I "download" illegal music but i am not going to have a CD for every band in my library had p2p no avaliable. on the other hand after listening to some music i may have not otherwise have bought i may decide to get their next album or pay to see their next show now that i have been exposed to the music.

Quote :

"It never ceases to amaze me that you can say things like this and still be OK with downloading music that you have not paid for."

hopefully even as dense as you are, you can see the difference btw someone taking my XBox360 and someone downloading an old Nirvan hit.

12/15/2007 12:34:01 PM

Quote :

"Artists should not be compensated for the time and effort they put into their art?"

Not by the state's power, no. I'm sure we could come up with a better solution. However, I'd much rather discourage artists than restrict everyone else.

12/15/2007 12:38:40 PM

^^ You're saying that it's not bad because of minimal economic impact. By that logic, I should be able to come over to your house and take your X-Box. As long as I bring it back, you suffer minimal economic damage and it's all good, right?

^ At least you're consistent.

12/15/2007 12:59:03 PM

Quote :

"To be fair, intellectual property rights are completely different. If I stole HUR's TV, as he thinks I want to, he would no longer be able to use it. However, if I copied a song of his, we'd both still be able to listen to the song. While people should compensated for work, current intellectual property rights laws are utterly absurd."

Quote :

"Not by the state's power, no. I'm sure we could come up with a better solution. However, I'd much rather discourage artists than restrict everyone else."

And as another sign of the coming apocalypse, GV and I agree for the second time in a week.

12/15/2007 1:40:26 PM

yeah no shit even treetwista10 and i have been seeing eye to eye on a lot shit the last few weeks

12/15/2007 2:40:03 PM

Quote :

"If the people didn't want it, and didn't eat there, they would go out of business."

They might go out of business. Or they might advertise the fuck out of it.

An individual can make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in advertising. They are very good at what they do. Every one of us is affected by it. Some folks end up standing in line for the best new gadet they can't afford. Other folks find themselves compelled to try Taco Bell's new tacurringa or some shit.

Advertising dominates us. And for the sake of the economy, we tolerate it.

If we're gonna talk about the government acting as a nanny, we should at least admit that it's a pretty lax fucking nanny that lets us by all the toys in the world and stuff our faces with candy...and y'all wanna bitch because it told that creepy dude who wants to molest us to stop popping up with candy all over the place.

And, yes, I did just compare the American public to children, but that's indicaive of how much power I believe advertising has over us (as we are right now). I apologize for the shitty analogy/metaphor/whatever it's called.

12/18/2007 3:22:03 AM

look I have every right to be fat. I know the health risks... I pay for my own health insurance and I'm the one who has to live with it.

It's really none of your damn business how I choose to eat.

12/18/2007 9:51:11 AM

No one is preventing you from driving a few extra miles to get your artery clogging goodness.

As much as the libertarians want to scream about personal responsibility, it's a basic fact that Americans in general are terrible at it, and I don't think it's a leap of loss of liberty for a municipality to enact an ordinance like this. It's really no different than a tax hike on cigs or beer in my eyes.

12/18/2007 10:47:59 AM

This has nothing to do with libertarianism. Being a libertarian does not mean you can do whatever the fuck you want. Individuals of the LA community decided they did not want a McD's on every block. I do not see a problem.

12/18/2007 10:58:46 AM

Quote :

"They might go out of business. Or they might advertise the fuck out of it. An individual can make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in advertising. They are very good at what they do. Every one of us is affected by it. Some folks end up standing in line for the best new gadet they can't afford. Other folks find themselves compelled to try Taco Bell's new tacurringa or some shit. Advertising dominates us. And for the sake of the economy, we tolerate it."

That's a cheap cop out and you know it. It's a simple matter of self control, responsibility and principles. If you don't want McDonalds, then don't go to McDonalds. If you don't like McDonalds, it doesn't matter that they are running advertisements every 5 minutes for McFilletMignon-on-a-stick because you don't want it in the first place. Nothing other than your own choices makes you walk into a McDonalds and place an order, and blaming it on advertising is just a way of excusing your lack of self control.

Quote :

"As much as the libertarians want to scream about personal responsibility, it's a basic fact that Americans in general are terrible at it, and I don't think it's a leap of loss of liberty for a municipality to enact an ordinance like this."

Americans are shitty at personal responsibility because the god damn government keeps insulating us from the impacts of our choices. Buy too much house on variable interest credit when interest rates are the lowest they've been in years? Don't worry, the government is here to stop your interest rates from climbing and save you from your ineptitude. Lent unproven, unreliable people money with repayment terms that will break their bank if it goes up another cent? Don't worry, the government is here to bail you out. Can't control your urge to stuff your face with burritos and Mc Greasers? Don't worry, the government will ban those places from opening and pay for your health care too! Can't keep a job because you just don't ever really want to go to work? Have no fear, the government has a paycheck waiting for you. On your 6th child and can't afford to feed the first 2? We'll up your paycheck. Can't choose where to spend your night out? Don't worry, the government will ban smoking in all the bars so that you can go anywhere instead of having to exercise responsibility and choice. Didn't teach your kid to look both ways before crossing the street and they got run over by a car while they chased the ice cream truck? Don't worry, we'll ban all those evil ice cream trucks.

Every time we insulate ourselves from the consequences of our actions, we become more and more irresponsible. It holds true for children, why in the world would we think it holds different for adults?

Quote :

"Individuals of the LA community decided they did not want a McD's on every block. I do not see a problem."

One government official "thinking about the children" decided she didn't want one on every block. If the community had decided that (and really decided it, not paid lip service to it) then there wouldn't be one on every block. The problem is, america is a bunch of lazy fuckers who don't want to inconvenience themselves enough to actually boycott or protest or change things.

12/18/2007 2:39:42 PM

^ Nice

12/18/2007 4:02:32 PM

if the people of LA are so against this then they can protest or simply vote for a new candidate who can reverse this decision.

ohh boo hooo Big Bertha might have to walk 4 blocks to get to the closest wendy's instead of having a McD's 20 feet way

12/18/2007 4:21:30 PM

i wish State would shut down the Wolves Den cause I just cant stop myself from going there and eating and getting fat

Once they shut it down I guess we can just vote for somebody else to bring it back

12/18/2007 4:24:05 PM

Quote :

"This has nothing to do with libertarianism. Being a libertarian does not mean you can do whatever the fuck you want. Individuals of the LA community decided they did not want a McD's on every block. I do not see a problem."

I was responding to the thread creator

Quote :

"Americans are shitty at personal responsibility because the god damn government keeps insulating us from the impacts of our choices. Buy too much house on variable interest credit when interest rates are the lowest they've been in years? Don't worry, the government is here to stop your interest rates from climbing and save you from your ineptitude."

#1 Many people that were given these loans had no business with them in the first place. Underwriters changed yearly income (often without even telling them) or changed the loan to value. Lawyers, who just wanted their $500 for their 30 minutes worth of work didn't do their job to fully explain to the borrower what all the terms meant. If you're some person without a lot of education (ie you work in manufacturing, making more than min wage, but not a ton of money) without the ability to even comprehend ANYTHING about loans and rates, and the loan officer fucked you, and the lawyer fucked you, then what can you do? What the government is going to attempt to do for these people is help the ones that are tight on money. The ones that are already illiquid WILL lose their homes. The ones that are making the payment but will get smashed with a 5% rate hike are going to get help in the short term. As a member of the "government" (I vote), I think this is a great way to try to wade the waters of this crisis.

Quote :

"Lent unproven, unreliable people money with repayment terms that will break their bank if it goes up another cent? Don't worry, the government is here to bail you out."

That explains why AHM went bankrupt, and countless other institutions have MASSIVE losses on their books?

Quote :

"Can't control your urge to stuff your face with burritos and Mc Greasers? Don't worry, the government will ban those places from opening and pay for your health care too!"

Look, if every citizen was "with it" and responsible, and had a four year education, and didn't have any vices, then we wouldn't need our leaders to step in from time to time to try and urge the ship in one direction or the other.

Quote :

"One government official "thinking about the children" decided she didn't want one on every block. "

We don't know if she decided it on her own or if she had it proposed to her from someone else. The article isn't clear enough about this point.

Quote :

"The problem is, america is a bunch of lazy fuckers who don't want to inconvenience themselves enough to actually boycott or protest or change things."

I agree, which is why from time to time we let people who have the time to address these issues to do them. Is it really any different if the government does it for us or if we protest it? If we don't like the way our government is running, we vote them out.

12/18/2007 4:26:48 PM

I wonder if the city of Raleigh would have a problem with me buying a chunk of land next to Athens Drive High School and turning it into an adult entertainment / head shop. I'd make a killing in profits.

btw 1337 if you read the article the ordinance doesn't close down exisiting establishments but merely prevents any new ones from arising.

^ If the student senate came together and decided that they did not want to open another wolves den in N. Campus then it would be up to the students to raise their voices to let our leaders know we do not approve of this action.

Why even have a gov't to make decisions otherwise. The constitution while supporting liberty does not give individuals the right to do whatever the fuck they feel like doing. Maybe you should put your effort into writing a letter to the city of Raleigh b.c the N.P.O impedes on my 1st amendment right to assembly instead of bitching about another McFat burger joint opening in an already saturated market. McDonalds, CVS, and Starbucks reminds me of a malignant tumor

[Edited on December 18, 2007 at 4:33 PM. Reason : a]

12/18/2007 4:27:11 PM

Quote :

"I wonder if the city of Raleigh would have a problem with me buying a chunk of land next to Athens Drive High School and turning it into an adult entertainment / head shop. I'd make a killing in profits."

depends on zoning

the areas in los angeles are zoned to allow restaurants

since a school zone isnt zoned for adult clubs, that hypothetical is moot

12/18/2007 4:31:12 PM

^ whopps sounds like this new ordinance plans on changing the zoning obviously. should city council members democratically elected by the population not have the authority to change zoning

12/18/2007 4:35:05 PM

Quote :

"btw 1337 if you read the article the ordinance doesn't close down exisiting establishments but merely prevents any new ones from arising."

Also, presumably so they can study the social and economic impacts of the added joints.

12/18/2007 4:35:24 PM

Quote :

"should city council members democratically elected by the population not have the authority to change zoning"

so they're going to change the zoning from a school zone to a commercial district with no limits (ie an adult club)?

of course not so thats a worthless example

whats with your recent big govt view anyway? you dont think the people are capable of deciding what they do?

12/18/2007 4:43:25 PM

Quote :

"Many people that were given these loans had no business with them in the first place. Underwriters changed yearly income (often without even telling them) or changed the loan to value. Lawyers, who just wanted their $500 for their 30 minutes worth of work didn't do their job to fully explain to the borrower what all the terms meant."

And in the end, the people still signed their name on the line. You are still responsible for the promises you make regardless of what information you did or did not have, provided that such information was available to you AND that you weren't fraudulently misrepresented. You know how much you make, you know how much you can afford to pay, and therefore you know how much you can afford to buy.

Quote :

"If you're some person without a lot of education (ie you work in manufacturing, making more than min wage, but not a ton of money) without the ability to even comprehend ANYTHING about loans and rates,"

Then you have no business taking out a multi hundred thousand dollar loan. PERIOD.

Quote :

"The ones that are making the payment but will get smashed with a 5% rate hike are going to get help in the short term."

Why should they? They agreed to pay X per month, and they agreed to allow the interest rate to change. They agreed to it, let them pay it.

Quote :

"That explains why AHM went bankrupt, and countless other institutions have MASSIVE losses on their books?"

Let them go bankrupt, let them take losses. They will learn their lesson or they will die.

Quote :

"Look, if every citizen was "with it" and responsible, and had a four year education, and didn't have any vices, then we wouldn't need our leaders to step in from time to time to try and urge the ship in one direction or the other."

You don't need a fucking four year degree to know that McDonalds is shit, and you don't need to not have a night cap to know that downing a case of beer an hour is bad for you. There is also a considerable difference between urging and FORCING.

Quote :

"We don't know if she decided it on her own or if she had it proposed to her from someone else. The article isn't clear enough about this point."

Still one person.

Quote :

"is it really any different if the government does it for us or if we protest it? If we don't like the way our government is running, we vote them out."

Which is why Bush is no longer in office right? And boy we sure got rid of that congress with the lowest approval rating in history right? Yes, it is considerably fucking different if the government does it, because if the government does it, we have to change the government AND the law AND society. If we do it as a whole, you only have to change society.

Quote :

" I wonder if the city of Raleigh would have a problem with me buying a chunk of land next to Athens Drive High School and turning it into an adult entertainment / head shop. I'd make a killing in profits. "

Or you would go out of business.

Quote :

"btw 1337 if you read the article the ordinance doesn't close down exisiting establishments but merely prevents any new ones from arising. "

Right, and the first smoking bans only prevented new smoking establishments.

Quote :

"Why even have a gov't to make decisions otherwise."

To act as an arbitrator in situations where two peoples rights clash.

Quote :

"The constitution while supporting liberty does not give individuals the right to do whatever the fuck they feel like doing."

You're right. The constitution explicitly outlines the limits of government power. And my copy doesn't have "has the authority to ensure that peoples property always rises in value and cities don't have fat people."

Quote :

"Maybe you should put your effort into writing a letter to the city of Raleigh b.c the N.P.O impedes on my 1st amendment right to assembly"

You're right it does. What does that have to do with shit?

Quote :

"McDonalds, CVS, and Starbucks reminds me of a malignant tumor"

So don't shop there.

Quote :

"should city council members democratically elected by the population not have the authority to change zoning"

To discriminate against particular businesses? No. Should they be allowed to change the zoning laws to prevent businesses owned by people with an income less than 100k / year because poor businesses make for poor neighborhoods?

12/18/2007 5:51:15 PM