A+ trolling from bigun20! Good job!

12/28/2007 10:00:34 AM

I'd like to point out that all this Christianity bashing is made possible by the fact that you live in a Christian nation. I'm not channeling O'Reilly here, I'm just saying that Christianity is the punching bag here because it is around to be punched. There are just as many hypocritical Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims (massive sexual repression going on in the Arab world), Jews, and even athiests (who wind up absent-mindedly appealing to an ambiguous higher power in time of need), they're just don't show up as much in early 21st century America.

That being said, its the consistent factual inaccuracy of the Bible that turns me off, and the demand that one have faith in something that presents almost no evidence, over observations that provide far more evidence. Everyone is hypocritical, I can write that off to human nature.

12/28/2007 10:14:09 AM

I love these comments from people.

"I believe in a creater...BUT"

How can you say you believe in something that there's no evidence for? How the fuck can people do this? It absolutely infuriates me that people buy into this bullshit.

"I don't take the bible literally but I believe in God"

Well then what makes you believe in God? Tell me? WHY? No, you can't just say that you do. You can't say that you just have some feeling that you should. You know what that is? Fucking idiocy. You can't "just believe in something." If you do, then you might as well believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Loch ness Monster, Ghosts, Spirits, Dowsing, Tarot cards, psychics, phrenology, and every other stupid thing people believe in that has no or weak evidence behind it.

12/28/2007 10:36:40 AM

absence of evidence =/ evidence of absence

I would describe my beliefs as a blend of many religions. I do think there is a god, but vastly different from what most people would describe as god (what, I don't claim to know). I just think shit is way to complicated to be completely "random".

12/28/2007 10:51:02 AM

Really? You're really saying that there being no evidence is not proof of something not existing? How did you pass your science classes in middle school?

Hey, you know what? I believe that giant shit monsters exist! Despite the fact that there is no evidence of this ever, that no one has ever seen any trace of it, that's not proof that they don't exist at all! I'm going to go around telling everyone about my giant shit monster theory and I expect to be taken seriously!

By that same logic, you SHOULD believe in Noah's ark, Adam and Eve, and the Earth being 6000 years old. After all, if you're going to take a sip of the kool-aid, you might as well drink the whole fucking glass.

That's the very definition of a delusion.

Quote :

"I just think shit is way to complicated to be completely "random"."

The "random" argument is a Christian idiot's excuse for evolution. Evolution and natural selection has nothing to do with random occurrences. Evolution does not occur randomly, it occurs through inherited traits over millions of years.

[Edited on December 28, 2007 at 11:03 AM. Reason : ]

12/28/2007 11:01:12 AM

Quote :

"Hey, you know what? I believe that giant shit monsters exist! Despite the fact that there is no evidence of this ever, that no one has ever seen any trace of it, that's not proof that they don't exist at all! I'm going to go around telling everyone about my giant shit monster theory and I expect to be taken seriously! "

Meh, i remember reading an article a few months ago about explorers first seeing giant gorillas in Africa hundreds of years ago...at first sight, they thought they were monsters. They had no evidence of them existing, but they were still there. imo the questions isn't of existence, its the definitions people put on them that matter....the more we learn, we don't necessarily disprove the existence of things, but quell the false views of people that put them in the "monster" category in the first place.

Quote :

"By that same logic, you SHOULD believe in Noah's ark, Adam and Eve, and the Earth being 6000 years old. After all, if you're going to take a sip of the kool-aid, you might as well drink the whole fucking glass. "

never said I took the bible word for word, as a matter of fact I said:

Quote :

"I would describe my beliefs as a blend of many religions."

which include eastern religions, and Naive American beliefs some of which in no way classify god as what you seem to be stuck on. I made it quite clear that the god I envision is a far cry from the christian....or even jewish or muslim god. it's cool to debate, but at least read and don't make every argument christian based...it's so tired.

Quote :

"The "random" argument is a Christian idiot's excuse for evolution"

when I say random, I am in no way talking of evolution or the like....it's pretty safe to say evolution is a real mechanism in our world. I talk of random more in the light of why certain elements react and work as they do, how electrons protons ect get their properties, and even on a much smaller scale than that. People are finding answers to these questions, but it seems each answer only creates more questions...where does that end....or does it have an end at all?

12/28/2007 11:20:42 AM

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"Morality in America has gone straight downhill and if you don't see that you are a moron."

says you.

Quote :

"I'd like to point out that all this Christianity bashing is made possible by the fact that you live in a Christian nation."

Keep telling yourself that if it makes you sleep better at night. Forgetting the fact that we were not founded as a christian nation and the Evangelical Right major foothold in national politics is a rather recent late 20th century change. We''ll also just act like the conflicts related to the various inquisitions or post-reformation and any other bloodshed approved by the Catholic church in the name of Jebus did not occur in centuries past.

Even in recent times IRA anyone??? They were not upset with the anglicans in N. Ireland b.c they prefer Harp over Guiness.

12/28/2007 11:24:22 AM

Quote :

"which include eastern religions, and Naive American beliefs some of which in no way classify god as what you seem to be stuck on"

ehe

I'm Christian although I lean more agnostic these days. I'm less trustful of organized religion for many of the reasons laid out by other posters. To actually make the full transition to atheist or some other religion would require some substantial spiritual awakening or further disillusionment with Christianity.

from HUR's link:

Quote :

"Some ministers hold up their own wealth as evidence that the teaching works. Atlanta-area pastor Creflo Dollar, who is fighting Grassley's inquiry, owns a Rolls Royce and multimillion-dollar homes and travels in a church-owned Learjet. In a letter to Grassley, Dollar's attorney calls the prosperity gospel a "deeply held religious belief" grounded in Scripture and therefore a protected religious freedom. Grassley has said his probe is not about theology."

LOL my mom always listens to this fuckstick. I had to listen to his BS while sleeping on the living room couch.

I wonder what these people would say to those first believers who sold off all their belongings and gave them to the poor. IIRC, Paul instructed other believers to only keep what was necessary to live day-to-day.

[Edited on December 28, 2007 at 12:37 PM. Reason : .]

12/28/2007 12:26:40 PM

Quote :

"If we swept UNC in all major sports, I would consider it."

agreed.

because, sadly enough, divine intervention is the only way that will happen.

12/28/2007 12:54:59 PM

Quote :

"(bottombaby) The only thing that I have trouble understanding is "atheism" because I think that spirituality is a very important part of being human. Had it not been such an intrinsic need on our parts, we would have never "created our creator." Even if there is not a higher power, it's obvious that we have some sort of psychological and social need for one."

This seems to me to be a little like saying it's obvious that I had to have a tuna sandwich today because what I ate for lunch was a tuna sandwich.

Even though we have psychological and social need for some of the things that religion/faith provides, belief in a higher power is not necessary for these roles to be filled or questions to be answered.

12/28/2007 12:56:58 PM

i'm still curious about the switch from athiest to christian mentioned in the second post

12/28/2007 1:29:15 PM

Yeah I don't understand that either.

12/28/2007 3:23:41 PM

I'm guessing that tragedy and christian pussy were involved.

12/28/2007 3:36:03 PM

the funny thing is that people who don't believe rarely do the thing that they should

FUCKING FAKE IT

in the right circumstances I would have no problem doing just that

....

in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if a great number of professed religious people do just that just so people don't bother them

because the whole basis of faith is rather silly and you would figure that anyone with any farm sense would get over that mess real quick

[Edited on December 28, 2007 at 3:40 PM. Reason : .]

12/28/2007 3:38:29 PM

Quote :

"I'm guessing that tragedy and christian pussy were involved."

12/28/2007 4:03:04 PM

Quote :

"because the whole basis of faith is rather silly and you would figure that anyone with any farm sense would get over that mess real quick "

i wouldn't go that far, but yes mainstream religion as we know it is nothing more than an opiate for the masses.

12/28/2007 4:06:05 PM

in my mind there are two kinds of people who don't really bother with believing in this religion stuff

1) intellectuals whos very nature it is to question

2) serious people (in my mind I always have the calloused farmer) who have better things to worry about and know when people are trying to con them

[Edited on December 28, 2007 at 5:36 PM. Reason : .]

12/28/2007 5:35:02 PM

Quote :

"in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if a great number of professed religious people do just that just so people don't bother them"

And the fact that I don't have to is why I love this country with every fiber of my being.

12/29/2007 12:42:39 AM

my apostacy was a gradual process that has precipitated into vocal anti-theism

not only do I believe that there is not a God but that the idea of religion is dangerous, insulting and vaguely disgusting

it began in confession during highschool in the Catholic church
I confessed that I was experiencing a lack of faith - the priest shrugged it off, told me that I was too young to worry about those things

that day I knew there was no God
many things have confirmed this later

12/29/2007 12:47:39 AM

Quote :

"i switched from atheist to christian in 2001 2000. not in the mood to articulate my story right now, but i will say it's the BEST thing i've ever done. if anyone really wants to know, feel free to PM "

12/29/2007 1:51:04 PM

change my faith in what?

12/29/2007 5:25:09 PM

Snewf, I like the cut of your jib, son.

12/29/2007 5:51:50 PM

if i like could talk to jesus or talk to god or physically see them i would believe they exist a whole lot more than i do now

12/29/2007 6:08:11 PM

Seems like the discussion had devolved into the typical tww mold... "people that believe in religion don't have any intelligence." Given the topic I thought the atheists would have to come up with things that would make them start believing.

^Lol, I doubt some of the more vocal atheists out there would change their minds even after that experience. People, religious or otherwise, are often set in their ways.

Quote :

"it began in confession during highschool in the Catholic church I confessed that I was experiencing a lack of faith - the priest shrugged it off, told me that I was too young to worry about those things that day I knew there was no God"

Hey, priests aren't perfect. Seems like a small thing, but then again small things add up over time and are important. It just seems like quite a leap to give up on God because one imperfect person didn't care as much as you wanted them to.

[Edited on December 30, 2007 at 12:46 AM. Reason : -]

12/30/2007 12:45:19 AM

Quote :

"It just seems like quite a leap to give up on God the easter bunny because one imperfect person didn't care as much as you wanted them to."

Yeah, quite a leap there.

12/30/2007 1:12:25 AM

i'm pretty sure i believed in santa longer than i believed in god.

hey, at least i was getting something out of believing in santa.

i tried hard to feel some sort of faith around middle school but realized i was just faking it.

anyhow, it would take some sort of supernatural experience to change my mind now.

12/30/2007 1:52:37 AM

some of my favourite verses from the New Testament:

1 Corinthians 13:11
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

2 Corinthians 9:6
But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.



also, this thread reminded me of Kanye: "i aint here to argue about facial features, im here to convert atheists into believers":

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bdIR2BThmTg

12/30/2007 3:34:29 AM

^ note, just as Kanye gets done saying that, its 3:16 into the video...

12/30/2007 3:37:00 AM

Quote :

"What would it take the change your faith?"

Two fanatics ringing my doorbell holding pamphlets, one zealot attempting to shove their favorite holy document in my hand, or a dozen self-righteous dudes on a messageboard. Yep, I think if I encountered anyone of those I'd convert in a heartbeat.



My favorite quotes in this thread.

Quote :

"Morality in America has gone straight downhill and if you don't see that you are a moron. Thats why athiest are almost always sad individuals because they have no hope for anything for they will one day die and then what. They also have no direction other than what they want or what they have learned in their lifetime. Christians truely have a purpose in life where athiest don't. "

Okay, now that I'm done laughing at the mentally challenged:


I think the misunderstanding with this concept of 'faith,' that many have, is that 'faith' is defined as:

2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

So what you are really arguing is the logic behind having 'faith' as a valid ideology. Continuing to argue either way on this issue is only going to perpetuate this dumbed down version of the philosophical battle between the empiricists and the rationalists that has been waged for milleniums by much more intelligent people than you and I.


My only problem with 'faith' is the forcing of it upon others.

12/30/2007 8:39:36 AM

yeah, i said 'milleniums.'

12/30/2007 10:41:11 AM

Quote :

"Lol, I doubt some of the more vocal atheists out there would change their minds even after that experience. People, religious or otherwise, are often set in their ways."

If something appeared to me, I would not think that it was a God. I don't even know what you're saying. Are you saying that if someone walked up to you and said, "Hey I'm jesus lol." That you would just believe them?

Let's say, for example, that someone "came down from the sky" and said they were a god. If this is what you're saying, then no, I wouldn't believe that they were a god. I would think they were some sort of extra-terrestrial being, and yes, I would be very excited, but I wouldn't be worshiping them as a god.

You have to think about how, if you had a time machine, you would be perceived by ancient cultures. If you "flew down" on your airplane and landed, and you had things like fire, electricity, and whatnot you could pretty much call yourself a god and they would believe you. The same scenario could happen today because of how small minded people are due to religion.

12/30/2007 12:00:53 PM

So you pretty much are verifying what I'm saying. If an angel did come down you'd find some way to rationalize it away. Seeing isn't believing.

12/30/2007 12:20:04 PM

how do I know its an angel?

what if it is the result of drug use?
or a tumor?

12/30/2007 12:32:16 PM

you just need to have faith!!!!11

12/30/2007 2:22:02 PM

Quote :

"If an angel did come down you'd find some way to rationalize it away"

bwahahahahaha. Christians have even stupider standards. I guarantee if said angel came down and looked like

rather than

Christians would find a way to rationalize that shit away based on looks alone.



[Edited on December 30, 2007 at 2:45 PM. Reason : ..]

12/30/2007 2:39:52 PM

Of course. I don't think one group would rationalize where the other would not. Everyone is human, people would tend to try and explain what they saw with things that they already believe. I really wouldn't see that as a surprise.

Just trying to say that seeing something really wouldn't serve as a strong catalyst for significant, lasting change.

12/30/2007 5:14:10 PM

I have a few questions for those who believe in angels, devil(s) and god(s), etc.


1) can angels walk through walls?


2) I understand that jesus & mohammed are human males, but what most basic form does god(s) take?


3) if everyone who knew of or believed in a particular god died, would that god survive? if so, how?

12/30/2007 5:52:42 PM

^

1) yes

2) Leafy Ganesh


3) Shiva, because he is the destroyer

12/30/2007 8:28:55 PM

Quote :

"Two fanatics ringing my doorbell holding pamphlets, one zealot attempting to shove their favorite holy document in my hand, or a dozen self-righteous dudes on a messageboard. Yep, I think if I encountered anyone of those I'd convert in a heartbeat."

This reminds me of one of my favorite quotes:

"Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words."
-St. Francis of Assisi

12/31/2007 12:00:54 AM

Quote :

"khcadwal i'm still curious about the switch from athiest to christian mentioned in the second post God Yeah I don't understand that either."

I'm going to speculate here (qntmfred and msb2ncsu can/should correct me, of course) that it the switch being the "best thing [they've] ever done" has to do with finally finding "true happiness" or "completeness" or something to that effect.

(stick with me here) Just a couple weeks ago my wife and i were having a conversation with a christian relative and he asked, kind of off hand, "what makes you happy" or something like that. My wife jumped in and said "nothing, he's always angry!" kind of as a joke. It is partially true that I am angry/grumpy a lot because, well, a lot of things piss me off. However, deep down, i'm not an "angry guy." I'm happy as a person overall and am comfortable with the choices and decisions I've made though my life. I don't exude joy or thank my lucky stars every time I wake, but that doesn't mean i'm not happy.

Of course, this exchange led to the response "well, you know.... there's only one way to find true happiness". yeah, yeah - turn my life over to the big man in the sky, allow jesus to guide me, blah blah blah

Anyway - for those people do do have so called "true happiness" through the church or god/jesus or christianity or any other faith, I do believe that you are truly happy, but I also believe this happiness is based on a conscious or unconscious self delusion. If you are willing to completely suspend your belief in reality in order to gain happiness, then I hope it works for you. For those of us who prefer to live in the real world, we have to make our own happiness, i guess, instead of having it given to us through a false sense of security granted by our omnipresent Big Brother (and through our self-assurance that by acting like decent human beings we can life eternity in splendor instead of burning in hell, of course).



concerning the original post/question..... I honestly don't know what it would take for me to change my faith right now, short of a bona-fide miracle or the 2nd coming (by then i guess it'd be too late ). I've already changed from Christian to Atheist once (i consider myself a 6 on the Dawkins Theist-Atheist scale - http://atheists.meetup.com/503/polls/74063/ - I'm not presumptuous enough to declare "there is no god", but i certainly don't believe nor see any reason to believe in one, and certainly not a "personal god", like that of Christians). That change was gradual, and only came about once I was able to rationalize and reflect on everything I was taught as a child with objectivity.

Even growing up, though, I wouldn't have considered myself a "strong Christian". My mom was very faithful, but not forceful or pushy at all, and I attended church and did all the church business. However, even as a kid I never felt a strong connection with the Church, God, Jesus or any of it. During middle school, when every single one of my church peers was baptized, I declined baptism because my mom told me to do it only when I felt God compelled me to. For years, I tried to make that connection, but plain and simple it just didn't happen. Until I was about 19-20, I would still call myself a Christian/Baptist, mostly out of habit and convenience, but certainly not out of conviction. It was only after actually thinking about and considering my options that I realized i had zero heart-felt connection to christianity, and I was able to let go of it as a crutch. I remember the first time I actually admitted it out loud to a high school friend that I wasn't a Christian, and after saying the words aloud I felt more free than I had in years.


As others have pointed out here, I also believe that the supposed Christianity rate of 85-90% or whatever it is in this country is way too high. I honestly believe that many, if not most Christians are so only in name because 1) that's just how they grew up, 2) they feel it is "wrong" to be otherwise (because as we know, for some reason atheists are more feared and loathed by christians than other religions are), but mostly 3) they simply have not ever slowed down, rationalized and thought about their decisions and considered how any why they believe them, or don't have the critical thinking skills or fortitude to make a new decision on their own (yes, i realize that is playing into the typical intellectually superior, pompous atheist stereotype).

12/31/2007 12:43:29 AM

85-90% would not renounce the christian god, though. That's good enough for government work

[Edited on December 31, 2007 at 3:54 AM. Reason : regardless of whether they actually practice any asinine christian shit]

12/31/2007 3:53:29 AM

The reason people are afraid to denounce God is because they feel that "well, I guess it's better to play it safe."

12/31/2007 8:42:43 AM

Quote :

"I'm going to speculate here (qntmfred and msb2ncsu can/should correct me, of course) that it the switch being the "best thing [they've] ever done" has to do with finally finding "true happiness" or "completeness" or something to that effect. ... Anyway - for those people do do have so called "true happiness" through the church or god/jesus or christianity or any other faith, I do believe that you are truly happy, but I also believe this happiness is based on a conscious or unconscious self delusion. If you are willing to completely suspend your belief in reality in order to gain happiness, then I hope it works for you. For those of us who prefer to live in the real world, we have to make our own happiness, i guess, instead of having it given to us through a false sense of security granted by our omnipresent Big Brother (and through our self-assurance that by acting like decent human beings we can life eternity in splendor instead of burning in hell, of course)."

Your perception is wrong, at least in my case. Hell, I wish I could "deluded" with feel-good thoughts and never look back because it would be so much less personal struggle, but its not how God made me. I was an atheist for the first 22 years, give or take, and I will always have a natural tendency to have doubts. I struggle daily with existence, life/death, meaning of life, etc. It is never going to be the same path for anyone and it is never going to be simple.

I don't fully understand prayer, I don't fully understand the gospel, and I most certainly don't understand my existence, but what I do know is that I become a better person the more I surround myself with Christ. When I slack off and miss service, skip fellowship group, don't pray, etc. I become depressing, pathetic, and a poor decision-maker. I don't know what changes are divine intervention or simple psychology. What I do know is that I have experienced significant changes in my life and in my being all centered around my various stages of faith. My wife has always been the cornerstone of my faith. So much of the "proof" of God's presence I see because of her or through her. I wish it was the sort of experience that you could share or easily express but its just not simple. I don't think many Christians put much thought into their faith and I don't think many put much of any thought into their fellowship with other people. However, when I have met those who do it is truly a rewarding experience.

Shit, I don't even know what I'm talking about anymore. I've had too much to drink tonight and its late. Bottom line, in my experiences, faith has never been about holding hands around a campfire and singing feel-good cheesy songs. Its not watching PAX and talking like a Hallmark card. It is a lifelong struggle with continuous self-improvement and growth with others. I wish experiencing God's presence was easier but the few times it does happen are something you never forget.

Quote :

"As others have pointed out here, I also believe that the supposed Christianity rate of 85-90% or whatever it is in this country is way too high."

Last study I heard (I belive it was out of Ohio) said that while 90% claim to be Christian, only about 25% had been to a church service of any kind in the last 2 months.

[Edited on January 1, 2008 at 4:06 AM. Reason : .]

1/1/2008 4:03:57 AM

Quote :

"christian pussy"

1/1/2008 5:10:36 AM

Quote :

"When I slack off and miss service, skip fellowship group, don't pray, etc. I become depressing, pathetic, and a poor decision-maker."

My theory is that religion gives you a sense of purpose that you can't find on your own. The relationship you feel with your church and deity makes you feel like you have something to work for. Separated from this relationship, you get depressed and don't make "good" decisions because you see no reason to do anything; your purpose relies on the relationship. Now personally I think all religions are a bunch of hogwash, but it really doesn't matter because I can't decide for you whether your current purpose, even if it's false, is better or worse than having no purpose at all (or whatever else the alternative might be.)

1/1/2008 9:59:25 AM

Watching the movie Jesus Camp could probably cause someone to change their faith...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=309MCU8TonE

1/1/2008 2:50:43 PM

this might also

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xKDKq_PPbk

1/1/2008 3:57:48 PM

So, two videos where the goal was to hunt down some of the craziest Christians out there and make fools of them is going to change the faith of some of the more main stream Christians or fence sitters?

I think the goal of those videos is to just reaffirm anti-Christian attitudes in people that already lean that direction.

1/1/2008 5:41:42 PM

^ well if i was a christian I wouldn't want to affiliate myself with those guys at all. And Haggard and those guys aren't really that far out of the mainstream of christianity - they just make more noise than other people. you see the size of the audiences that those people were preaching to? it's not like they're teaching in backwater hick-churches or something

1/1/2008 5:43:51 PM

I've met several Christians during the course of my life and none have been that far out there... well, one.

Quote :

"well if i was a christian I wouldn't want to affiliate myself with those guys at all."

Right, but you aren't denouncing your Christian faith by not affiliating with those guys.

1/1/2008 5:48:50 PM