It doesn't matter what you say to them because it's simply not practical to round up 12-20 million illegals and herd them back to Mexico like cattle. Any real solution is going to involve some level of "amnesty". You can't roll back decades of lack of immigration enforcement with one fell swoop.

To answer your question though, you tell them that you have a great guest worker program that is easy and cheap to apply for and would allow them to work here legally so long as they work and pay taxes. Then you deport the relatively small number of illegal felons. Then you crack down on the businesses enabling illegals to work without paying taxes making them pay huge fines for infractions. You tell them we want you here, we want you to contribute money/labor to our economy, but here is the legal and easy way to do it.

And for god's sake, we don't waste an asston of money on some stupid fucking wall/fence. Mexicans do have ladders and shovels you know.


[Edited on January 25, 2008 at 11:22 AM. Reason : d]

1/25/2008 11:21:00 AM

Guiliani's a gun-grabber. His attempts to get the NRA on his side are fucking pathetic. Luckily, they're having none of it. His 'feint to the northeast' strategy of trying to win the campaign at the last minute is ludicrous. He's not a real Republican, and everyone down here knows it.
(For sources on this, please see the fucking LAWSUIT Guiliani tried to start in 2000 against a number of major gun manufacturers and distributors. He fucking backpedaled on it later, but still tried to support the gun ban in D.C. last year when THAT finally got overturned. Fuck him.)

1/25/2008 12:42:56 PM

Because concealed handguns in Washington DC are REALLY a good idea.

1/25/2008 12:45:21 PM

This is the letter v: V

1/25/2008 12:48:28 PM

No more of a bad idea there than anywhere else.

1/25/2008 12:49:40 PM

Handguns are in DC regardless of their laws. The only problem is that those who follow the law remain unarmed while Tron R. Thugalot remains armed to the teeth.

1/25/2008 12:51:38 PM

You're right. Concealed weapons should be illegal everywhere. People wanting to hide weapons on their person are not generally good intentioned.

1/25/2008 12:54:26 PM

How presumptuous of you. So if you have a concealed handgun on your property, am I to assume that you are going to commit a crime?

And I guess the hundreds of thousands, if not millions of lawful citizens who have obtained concealed carry permits are just waiting until their right break to score their big hit?

1/25/2008 12:56:53 PM

^^not necessarily true....and taking away legal avenues for carrying have no effect on illegal carrying anyway (which is were the problem stems).


[Edited on January 25, 2008 at 12:59 PM. Reason : \/ exact post times.]]

1/25/2008 12:58:58 PM

some people are just scared of guns...scared of anybody having a gun...although i don't understand why they can't differentiate between law abiding citizens who go through the proper legal channels to get a gun and own it responsibly, versus those who buy it illegally and use it for crime

[Edited on January 25, 2008 at 1:01 PM. Reason : 12:58:58!!!111]

1/25/2008 12:58:58 PM

I don't have an issue with guns in general. Hunting rifles, etc. But you are really hard pressed to convince me that you need to walk around with a hidden weapon to be safe (which is vastly different from feeling safe).

1/25/2008 1:03:22 PM

if the person is legally carrying, and doesn't abuse it it doesn't matter why they want to carry it imo.

and, I believe the cases of unlawful use in civilians with conceal and carry permits are less than that of law enforcement officers (from a %age standpoint anyway).

1/25/2008 1:05:26 PM

^^If you don't have an issue with guns in general, then why do you have an issue with law abiding citizens carrying weapons? If a crime occurs, are there always police around to save you? Of course not. Besides, I'm sure you pass by people every day who are carrying concealed and you never even know it.

1/25/2008 1:05:58 PM

Okay, I'm going to agree with Skankin there. While I do agree that people should have the right to carry concealed weapons, I don't believe I've ever seen any statistics to show how citizen's concealed carry rate has an effect on crime rates. The idea is that it is a deterrent, but I don't know how many of those citizens have ever had to fire their concealed weapons in self-defense. Where would I find info on that kind of thing?

[Edited on January 25, 2008 at 1:06 PM. Reason : .]

1/25/2008 1:06:12 PM

I think it's silly to assume that just because somebody carries a concealed weapon that they are ill intentioned. Besides, if law enforcement deems a citizen to be trusted enough, after a thorough background search that involves criminal checks (fingerprints, etc.), to carry a concealed weapon then I have do not have the slightest problem. It's presumptuous to presume motive, esp. a guilty one.

I would love to know just how many, if any, individuals that have received a concealed carry permit have actually committed a crime. If somebody has nothing to hide and is willing to give every bit of their identity to law enforcement in order to secure such a privilege, then I think it would be foolish to assume any kind of criminal intent.

1/25/2008 1:07:13 PM

Quote :

"good idea. We need to stop the flow of 11 million uneducated canadians flooding into the US and bankrupting us."

Show me any negative relationship -- any at all -- between Hispanic immigration and the economy.

Quote :

"What do you tell the Mexicans and all other immigrants who are following our rules and waiting their turn to come to the US? "

Well, to the Mexicans trying to get in legally, you could tell them the truth, which is that "You will never get into this country legally." It's effectively impossible, unless, of course, they've already got family up here, which family probably came in illegally.

To the rest of them I'd say, "Well, if you think it's so unfair that you have to fill out this paperwork, I welcome you to abandon all of your belongings and spend sizzling days and freezing nights crossing the desert, swimming across a river, and dodging criminals, all for a very high likelihood of getting caught, kicked out, and forced to go through the process again."

I might also say, "Isn't this system we've created the single most ridiculous clusterfuck of a policy that you've ever seen?"

It pisses me off to no end when you people try to make it sound like legal immigrants are facing so much god damned adversity when there are hundreds of people dying on the border every year.

Quote :

"Either have an immigration policy and enforce it aggressively, or don't have one at all."

It's very easy for someone on your side of the issue to say this, since the hard part (creating the policy) is already done for you. We can't get the ruddy thing torn down by tomorrow.

Quote :

"But what kind of message are we sending citizens when 11 million newcomers' first relationship with our country is to violate its law and get away with it?"

Well, to a fairly high percentage of them, the message seems to be, "Man, if you fuck up, it's right back to Chihuahua with your ass, so best not do anything to draw attention to yourself."

1/25/2008 1:07:35 PM

We've already discussed this in another thread so I'm going to end this here and not read/post in this thread anymore since it's about Guliani: Gun violence and the murder rate are all significantly lower in countries that have strict gun laws. Other violent crimes are on par with the US aside from gun issues. If we enact gun control at a federal level and actually enforce it, statistics say gun violence and the murder rate should also decline.


And since this is a Guliani thread, don't forget to vote for him because he was there at 9/11 and no one else was, this obviously makes him the best candidate.

1/25/2008 1:11:10 PM

If you don't have an issue with guns in general, then why do you have an issue with law abiding citizens carrying weapons?

1/25/2008 1:12:19 PM

So he won't have to clutch his teddy bear so tight at night.

1/25/2008 1:13:13 PM

I'm not worried. Regardless of the Republican nominee, nothing will unite Republicans, conservatives, and those that are open to voting Republican like Hillary Clinton.



Bank on it.

1/25/2008 1:41:58 PM

^ But do those people make up 50.1% of those voting in November?

I hate Hillary too, and if she wins, the Republican Party should make a public show by evicting George W. Bush from the party due to creating the conditions that allowed a b**** like her to win.

1/25/2008 1:49:40 PM

Quote :

"good idea. We need to stop the flow of 11 million uneducated canadians flooding into the US and bankrupting us. LOL. "

you must not have read what I said.

Quote :

"For most Americans, it's not about "jooobs" What do you tell the Mexicans and all other immigrants who are following our rules and waiting their turn to come to the US? What do you say to them while they watch millions of people break our law and sneak in ahead of them...and then nothing is done about it? Either have an immigration policy and enforce it aggressively, or don't have one at all. But what kind of message are we sending citizens when 11 million newcomers' first relationship with our country is to violate its law and get away with it? "

I agree with all of this except the judgement that this is what drives "most Americans" on this issue.

I think we should tighten border security--to have an immigration policy and enforce it reasonably aggressively--but going on a witch hunt to round up and deport 10+ million people who are already here is just asinine.

Quote :

"Any real solution is going to involve some level of "amnesty". You can't roll back decades of lack of immigration enforcement with one fell swoop. "

Exactly. Not necessarily a clean slate of total amnesty, but certainly a considerable level of it.

Quote :

"Because concealed handguns in Washington DC are REALLY a good idea. "

Quote :

"You're right. Concealed weapons should be illegal everywhere. People wanting to hide weapons on their person are not generally good intentioned"

this would be funny, except you actually believe this shit.

this is pretty much a one-sided argument where you will get fucking smoked from about 10 different angles--legal, principle, and statistical--if you try to have it, but let's not overrun this thread with it.

Quote :

"Well, to a fairly high percentage of them, the message seems to be, "Man, if you fuck up, it's right back to Chihuahua with your ass, so best not do anything to draw attention to yourself." "

that's true, too.

Quote :

"Gun violence and the murder rate are all significantly lower in countries that have strict gun laws. Other violent crimes are on par with the US aside from gun issues. If we enact gun control at a federal level and actually enforce it, statistics say gun violence and the murder rate should also decline. "

those countries, however, are not the U.S. Maybe we should take steps towards socialism to eliminate the gaps between rich and poor--that would prob reduce violent crime, too. Personally, I'd rather have the crime.

in addition, i fucking despise this Constitution-be-damned, this is what we ought to do approach that people seem to think is perfectly normal and ok.

1/25/2008 3:27:59 PM

Quote :

"Show me any negative relationship -- any at all -- between Hispanic immigration and the economy. "

Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household.


Among the largest costs are Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).


With nearly two-thirds of illegal aliens lacking a high school degree, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments, not their legal status or heavy use of most social services.


On average, the costs that illegal households impose on federal coffers are less than half that of other households, but their tax payments are only one-fourth that of other households.


Many of the costs associated with illegals are due to their American-born children, who are awarded U.S. citizenship at birth. Thus, greater efforts at barring illegals from federal programs will not reduce costs because their citizen children can continue to access them.


If illegal aliens were given amnesty and began to pay taxes and use services like households headed by legal immigrants with the same education levels, the estimated annual net fiscal deficit would increase from $2,700 per household to nearly $7,700, for a total net cost of $29 billion.


Costs increase dramatically because unskilled immigrants with legal status -- what most illegal aliens would become -- can access government programs, but still tend to make very modest tax payments.


Although legalization would increase average tax payments by 77 percent, average costs would rise by 118 percent.


The fact that legal immigrants with few years of schooling are a large fiscal drain does not mean that legal immigrants overall are a net drain -- many legal immigrants are highly skilled.


The vast majority of illegals hold jobs. Thus the fiscal deficit they create for the federal government is not the result of an unwillingness to work.


The results of this study are consistent with a 1997 study by the National Research Council, which also found that immigrants' education level is a key determinant of their fiscal impact.




enough? But I guess its just alot easier to call everyone racists who call for border security and a stop to this invasion. If you deported all the deadbeats already here, then I would be more willing to have open borders. Until then we just cant afford it sir.

[Edited on January 25, 2008 at 6:48 PM. Reason : .]

1/25/2008 6:45:14 PM

More negatives (if any, hahah, my ass)

84 California hospitals are closing their doors as a direct result of the rising number of illegal aliens and their non-reimbursed tax on the system.


hahah. Id love to hear your counter.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43275

yeah, the source... always question the source when backed into a corner. Here are a couple more:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2008-01-21-immigrant-healthcare_N.htm

Because most illegal immigrants are relatively young and healthy, they generally don't need as much health care treatment as U.S. citizens, studies show. But while they account for less than 2% of national medical spending, their growing presence is a problem in places such as eastern North Carolina, one of the nation's poorest areas.

Statewide, illegal immigrants accounted for one in four new residents from 1990 to 2004, according to a University of North Carolina study. The state ranks ninth in the nation for illegal immigrants with more than 300,000, according to the Pew Hispanic Center.

For hospitals, "the burden of the uninsured immigrant is huge," says Jeff Spade, vice president of the North Carolina Hospital Association. "It's exploded the amount of work that they have to do."


Here is one on its impact in NC alone:
http://www.jwpcivitasinstitute.org/media/publication-archive/policy-brief/amnesty-illegal-immigrants-medicaid-costs-will-increase-3-2-b

1/25/2008 6:59:16 PM

Sigh...eyedrb, we've done this dance before. As I posted last time (it seemed to shut you up then, anyway):

Quote :

"The widespread belief is that illegal aliens cost more in government services than they contribute to the economy. This belief is undeniably false. [E]very empirical study of illegals' economic impact demonstrates the opposite . . .: undocumenteds actually contribute more to public coffers in taxes than they cost in social services."

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=881584

---

There's also the myriad of things your study doesn't take into account -- the tax revenue generated by increased economic activity, for example. Because it turns out you didn't actually answer my question. Their effect on the federal budget is not a direct effect on the economy. To try to draw that conclusion here would be to effectively say that people with incomes below the average are detrimental to the economy, because by definition they pay less in taxes and take at least equal out in benefits. And, of course, there must always be people who have incomes below the average.

I would be very interested to see a similar analysis done of native-born, "real American" poor people. It wouldn't shock me to find out that they are an even bigger drain on national coffers.

There's also the money saved across the board in terms of lower labor costs, because while I'm certain there are native-born Americans willing to do the jobs typically associated with illegal immigrants, there aren't many willing to do it for so little.

---

Quote :

"Although legalization would increase average tax payments by 77 percent, average costs would rise by 118 percent."

This, of course, is true. It's why I've generally favored a graduated citizenship and residency program that does not give an immigrant full access to services until at the very least they've been in the country long enough to get on their feet. It might not result in a balance in the first generation, but it would help.

1/25/2008 7:21:34 PM

Oh, here we are, back to insurance, that thing that would fix so many problems if we would fucking let immigrants get it.

Illegals avoid insurance and other official entanglements because of the fear that it will reveal their status, draw attention, and get them deported. Employers can't offer it to them for basically the same reason.

If they had access to it, the problem wouldn't disappear. Some still wouldn't be able to afford it on their own, and some employers still wouldn't offer it. But it would help.

1/25/2008 7:27:28 PM

GOP, Im sorry but maybe Im slow. You are trying to tell me that a drain on the federal budget doesnt affect the economy? If so, I couldnt disagree more.

Im not against immigration, but you have to have it controlled. Its the numbers coming in over the time that we cant accomodate. Its causing a huge strain on all of our resources.

Ill use a george carlin line. "want to reduce our dependency on oil overnight? get rid of 11 million illegals."

You wont find anyone who isnt for someone wanting to come here, work hard and contribute to this society. Lord knows we have alot of trash in this country that choose to none of that. However, you have to admit that we pay alot better to do nothing than mexico does, and coupled with our homegrown pieces of shit we cant afford to further burden our entitlement nightmare. WOuld you agree with that?

1/25/2008 8:07:26 PM

Quote :

"it's simply not practical to round up 12-20 million illegals and herd them back to Mexico like cattle"

You don't have to. Here's what we do....

1) Major crack-down on employers of illegals. We could find them if we really started trying. Hold CEOs personally responsible for having illegals on their payroll. Stiff Jail sentences, business-ending fines etc. Some high-profile arrests and trials of a couple of corporate leaders should send the message.

2) Deny all welfare benefits to illegals.

3) Pass a retro-active law that all children born in the US with illegal alien parents are not automatically US citizens.

Unable to work, or sponge off the country, the illegals will simply go back home. No need to deport them. You could throw in Free Amtrak back to the border.


-

[Edited on January 26, 2008 at 1:11 AM. Reason : .]

1/26/2008 1:11:18 AM

good luck with that second one you got there ^

1/26/2008 7:34:28 AM

Quote :

"Gun violence and the murder rate are all significantly lower in countries that have strict gun laws. Other violent crimes are on par with the US aside from gun issues. If we enact gun control at a federal level and actually enforce it, statistics say gun violence and the murder rate should also decline. "

You sure? DC has outlawed guns, and it is among the highest in the nation in crime. But a little history about gun control.

In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control.
From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------------
In 1911, Turkey established gun control.
From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------------
Germany established gun control in 1938.
From 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------------
China established gun control in 1935.
From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated
-------------- ----------------
Guatemala established gun control in 1964.
From1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------------
Uganda established gun control in 1970.
From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------------
Cambodia established gun control in 1956.
From 1975 to 1977, one million 'educated' people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
-----------------------------
Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.
------------------------------
It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by new laws to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by their own government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500 million dollars. The first year results are now in:


Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 percent
Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent
Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent



Yes it would be nice if guns didnt exist, but they do. Ive said before wanting to outlaw guns is like only teaching abstinence, it simply wont work.

Earthdogg, the only thing I dont like about your plan is that employers are now doing the job our govt should be doing. Now if you make massive fines for people paying its workers under the table, which we probably already have, then that might be away for it to work. I kinda look at it like birds. Stop throwing out the birdseed the birds will stop coming. Take away the freebies, fix the anchor baby, etc. it will take care of itself.

1/26/2008 8:04:12 AM

Quote :

"good luck with that second one you got there "

Yes..it would require some 'nads from our politicians. They could be inserted witht he help of an angered electorate.

Quote :

"..I dont like about your plan is that employers are now doing the job our govt should be doing."

Let's say it's illegal for me to knowingly accept stolen merchandise and re-selling it. Is it primarily the gov't's responsibility for my actions or is it mine? It's up to me to take reasonable actions to prevent accepting stolen merchandise.

Now if I get lazy about checking the source of my merchandise and get caught with some...do the authorities accept my excuse? No not usually.

If I wanted to stay in business, I would take the actions necessary to insure no illegals were on the payroll. I'm not doing the gov't's job, I'm just making sure I stay within the law.

1/26/2008 10:38:08 AM

Earthdogg wins this round.

1/26/2008 10:39:15 AM

Quote :

"Where did Rudy F*** up? "

By being born.

That bastard will burn in hell forever.

You guys think Bush is evil and a warmonger? Well Rudy is Bush x 10.

1/26/2008 11:18:27 AM

one trick pony

1/26/2008 12:01:58 PM

I dunno Rudy seems a lot smarter than Bush.

1/26/2008 12:04:13 PM

haha not really

and he gives me that evil vibe

[Edited on January 26, 2008 at 12:51 PM. Reason : pundits saying he'd want a police state if he was president]

1/26/2008 12:51:21 PM

This I have a hard time backing,

Quote :

" 3) Pass a retro-active law that all children born in the US with illegal alien parents are not automatically US citizens. "

I think it would be sufficient to modify the family relation immigration laws so that parents could not weasel there way past people who are waiting to become citizens through a more legitimate route.

The kids can come back to the US when they're adults if their parents have to leave as a result of the other restrictions you guys are proposing.

Anyway, I think the real problem is not immigration. The real problem is government handouts. Eliminate this then I have no problem for the most part.

However, I do think we should make a common language a requirement. That is to say the government should penalize you if you refuse to assimilate into American society. This would seem to be the biggest problem. The contrast between the historical melting pot and the current politically correct idea of the "mosaic".

Hey, wait what does this have to do with Rudy, well who cares who is Rudy anyway?

[Edited on January 26, 2008 at 8:01 PM. Reason : .]

1/26/2008 8:01:32 PM

Quote :

"It doesn't matter what you say to them because it's simply not practical to round up 12-20 million illegals and herd them back to Mexico like cattle."

You do realize that this is a strawman, right? No one is saying "round em all up, YEEEEEEEEEEEHAAAAAAAAAW!!!!!"

1/27/2008 3:42:46 AM

21 head-scratching lines from a(nother) disastrous Rudy Giuliani interview

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/07/politics/rudy-giuliani-trump-abc/index.htmlhttp://

5/7/2018 3:06:13 PM

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/07/politics/rudy-giuliani-trump-abc/index.htmlhttp://

[Edited on May 7, 2018 at 3:41 PM. Reason : ftfy]

5/7/2018 3:41:28 PM

Lol at old posts ITT.

I can’t decide if I should just take Giuliani as “what you see is what you get,” and no one on Team Trump has a damn clue what they or their colleagues are doing/did; or if something more devious is afoot, like Giuliani is just muddying the waters as much as possible with multiple times he’s changed the Stormy-Cohen story in just the last week.

5/7/2018 5:43:59 PM

The whole gang is acting exactly like a child does when they get caught in a lie

5/7/2018 5:56:13 PM

https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/kzknda/rudy-giuliani-citing-zero-evidence-accuses-mueller-of-trying-to-frame-trump

6/6/2018 12:35:40 PM

What drugs is this asshole on?

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/07/politics/melania-trump-rudy-giuliani/index.html

6/8/2018 12:07:55 PM

Quote :

"“Kim Jong-un got back on his hands and knees and begged for it, which is exactly the position you want to put him in,” Giuliani told a business conference in the Israeli city of Tel Aviv. In an interview later with the Associated Press, Giuliani rejected suggestions that such comments might sour the atmosphere before next week’s summit, saying Kim Jong-un must understand the US is in a position of strength. “It is pointing out that the president is the stronger figure,” Giuliani said. “And you’re not going to have useful negotiations unless he accepts that.”"

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jun/07/rudy-giuliani-kim-jong-un-begged-trump-knees-north-korea-summit-

[Edited on June 8, 2018 at 12:41 PM. Reason : this is america]

6/8/2018 12:40:55 PM

I think he has resigned himself to the fact that his public career is going to consist of being a cable news contributor from now on. Maybe if Trump does not win the next round they can work together on their new ultra-conservative TV network.

6/25/2018 9:55:13 AM

Rudy Giuliani accuses Twitter of bias for hyperlinking text
https://www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2018/12/5/18127063/rudy-giuliani-twitter-bias-accusation-hyperlinked-text-president-trump

‘Trump is a traitor’: Fury as Twitter prank sees anti-President website go viral
https://amp.news.com.au/technology/online/social/trump-is-a-traitor-fury-as-twitter-prank-sees-antipresident-website-go-viral/news-story/10ca7be48f7cec1eedad44fba2bac590

You can't make this shit up....

12/5/2018 11:54:05 PM

probably the dumbest person in national politics right now

12/6/2018 12:01:40 AM

http://g-20.in

12/6/2018 12:04:46 AM

So did yall guys see him on the talk shows this weekend? What the hell is wrong with him?

12/17/2018 11:39:15 AM