Quote :

"People get killed when theres no ruling government. That aspect of your utopian anarchy isn't so glamorous, is it?"

I still see states doing plenty of the killing, comrade.

2/1/2008 3:53:55 PM

Quote :

"Perhaps they instead committed their crimes on foreign soil."

foreign soil? aren't you for the elimination of borders?

2/1/2008 3:56:51 PM

Quote :

"foreign soil? aren't you for the elimination of borders?"

Indeed. Sadly, this doesn't change current political realities.

2/1/2008 3:59:22 PM

Quote :

"purely defensive force"

must......fight.......the urge.........to......engage......

fuck it.


Ive asked this question several times and never received much of an answer...should the US always be required to absorb the first blow? if so, why? further, what is sufficient to qualify as a first blow? US citizen deaths? property destroyed? threats?

2/1/2008 4:03:25 PM

I could possibly accept use of armed forces to turn back an invasion. I'd still prefer less hierarchal organization than our current military.

Invasions and occupations aren't defensive.

[Edited on February 1, 2008 at 4:13 PM. Reason : d]

2/1/2008 4:12:17 PM

^ You want the military to be a flat organization?

Group facilitator (formerly known as "general"): "Attack, event participants (formerly known as "soldiers, sailors, airmen, Marines, and Coast Guardsmen")! You know, if you want to and you're feeling collaborative."

And what about offensive attacks against our enemies to defend against future attacks by them?



[Edited on February 1, 2008 at 4:20 PM. Reason : .]

2/1/2008 4:15:45 PM

I don't want a military at all.

Quote :

"Group facilitator (formerly known as "general"): "Attack, event participants! You know, if you want to and you're feeling collaborative.""

Kind of like George Orwell's adventures in Spain, I guess. Fun to read. Lots of laughs.

2/1/2008 4:19:16 PM

I think there are bigger concerns about the city council promoting certain types of speech above others by offering free permits and parking spaces. Would they do the same for anti-abortion protestors?

2/1/2008 4:19:29 PM

^^ Sweet Jesus.

^ The answer is self-evident.

2/1/2008 4:21:44 PM

its fun to talk in the ideal. not productive or practical, but fun.

2/1/2008 4:24:13 PM

Goldenviper

Are you advocating anarchy?

Or a society without police or a military?

2/1/2008 4:35:32 PM

Quote :

"I think there are bigger concerns about the city council promoting certain types of speech above others by offering free permits and parking spaces. Would they do the same for anti-abortion protestors?"

Yes, that is an issue. The city council is wielding its own form of state power.

Quote :

"Are you advocating anarchy? Or a society without police or a military?"

Both. Similar organization might appear from time to time in a free society, but they wouldn't be like what we have now.

But even under our current model of states and violent power, invasions are unacceptable.

[Edited on February 1, 2008 at 4:39 PM. Reason : both]

2/1/2008 4:36:48 PM

nevermind

[Edited on February 1, 2008 at 4:41 PM. Reason : a]

2/1/2008 4:40:29 PM

If I wasn't on the verge of being suspended for arguing with retarded Ron Paul supporters, I'd probably drop a purestrain golden nugget of knowledge on your highly ignorant brain piece, GoldenViper.

2/1/2008 4:44:41 PM

PM me and I will post it

[Edited on February 1, 2008 at 4:48 PM. Reason : .]

2/1/2008 4:48:18 PM

Quote :

"If I wasn't on the verge of being suspended for arguing with retarded Ron Paul supporters, I'd probably drop a purestrain golden nugget of knowledge on your highly ignorant brain piece, GoldenViper."

Good luck.

Unlike some hippies, I don't mind a tussle. In fact, I doubt you'll produce anything I haven't heard before. As you surely know, it's an old argument.

2/1/2008 4:55:12 PM

Quote :

"You want the military to be a flat organization? Group facilitator (formerly known as "general"): "Attack, event participants (formerly known as "soldiers, sailors, airmen, Marines, and Coast Guardsmen")! You know, if you want to and you're feeling collaborative." And what about offensive attacks against our enemies to defend against future attacks by them? "

Isn't this part of the reasoning the pro-gun people use? That people with guns can defend as necessary?

Are you saying this is not a valid tenet of the second amendment rights folks?

2/1/2008 4:56:17 PM

For what it's worth, I never said it should be illegal or that the government should roll in with tanks and force the council to back down. I just pointed out the fallacy of the fact that the problem is with the protesters, and yet the council is acting in a manner to support the protesters, and thereby acting against the interests of the affected constituents.

2/1/2008 6:04:30 PM

I'm not going to comment on legal, social, or any other issues in this matter. To be honest I don't know enough about it to intelligently speak on it. I'm sure a reasonable and propper conclusion can be reached. But I will say that as a Marine, I am willing to give my life to protect the rights of these protesters to protest and the city counsil to govern their community.

2/1/2008 7:39:23 PM

Quote :

"But I will say that as a Marine, I am willing to give my life to protect the rights of these protesters to protest and the city counsil to govern their community"

that was exactly my point

2/1/2008 7:52:14 PM

^^

"I don't understand," said Kassad, his voice tight, "but soldiers rarely understand the political situation." He leaned forward, kissed the surprised Moneta, and removed her red scarf. "I love you," he said as he tied the bit of cloth to the barrel of his assault rifle. Telltales showed that half his pulse charge and ammunition remained.
Fedmahn Kassad strode forward five paces, turned his back on the Shrike, raised his arms to the people, still silent on the hillside, and shouted, "For liberty!"

2/1/2008 8:23:14 PM

Quote :

"I wonder how theDuke866 feels about this."

What I think...

is why are we trying to recruit U.S. Marines in Berkeley?

2/1/2008 9:00:04 PM

The Marines have taken it upon themselves to try to save the children of hippies?

2/1/2008 9:07:46 PM

Quote :

"Freedom isn't free."

America..FUCK YEAH

2/1/2008 10:50:34 PM

Where is Hillary and Obama? Why aren't they standing in unity with the protestors? After all, they were both against the war even before Bush thought it up.

2/1/2008 11:09:39 PM

Code Pink is not a fan of Clinton

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2007/03/code_pink_targe.html

2/1/2008 11:13:20 PM

[Edited on February 1, 2008 at 11:23 PM. Reason : .]

2/1/2008 11:22:42 PM

GoldenViper, perhaps you misunderstood what I was talking about which is the profesionalism of Marines along with the rest of the military. We defend the rights of all Americans, regaurdless of our personal opinions or feelings, weather we agree with them or not. If someone wants to invade Berkley, they've gotta get through us first. Even if they don't want us recruiting there, even if they treat us like shit, even if they hate us.

I'll even do you on better: as a Marine, I am willing to give my life protect GoldenVipers right to be an asshole.

2/2/2008 12:57:42 AM

Quote :

"GoldenViper, perhaps you misunderstood what I was talking about which is the profesionalism of Marines along with the rest of the military."

I think you may have misread my response. It wasn't intended as an insult. Kassad is perhaps the most badass character in science fiction. What I quoted was one of his best scenes.

Quote :

"I'll even do you on better: as a Marine, I am willing to give my life protect GoldenVipers right to be an asshole."

While I like mutual aid, I don't know how I feel about paternalistic protection.

2/2/2008 1:03:10 AM

I'm not that familiar with science fiction. I missunderstood your intensions. I apologize for calling you an asshole. Water under the bridge.

[Edited on February 2, 2008 at 1:14 AM. Reason : And you're entitled to you're opinion.]

2/2/2008 1:11:09 AM

^

GoldenViper, I think, is a genuinely good dude, and is a smart guy and thinking man.

but he is way the fuck out there, and you are not going to ever understand him, relate to him, or find him to be grounded in any reality or anything close to it.

2/2/2008 1:23:09 AM

Quote :

"but he is way the fuck out there, and you are not going to ever understand him, relate to him, or find him to be grounded in any reality or anything close to it."

Unless, of course, one of y'all dudely dudes wanted to spar with me. With weapon simulators would be ideal, but I really should work on unarmed techniques. Though that might be too uneven. I know you're much stronger than I am, duke. I want to learn to shoot, as well, when and if I ever leave home.

All of those things are traditionally dudely and not revolutionary in the least. I can also talk military history and future military technology.

2/2/2008 1:31:16 AM

Quote :

"Where is Hillary and Obama? Why aren't they standing in unity with the protestors? After all, they were both against the war even before Bush thought it up. "

not agreeing with the war in Iraq does NOT equal not supporting our troops. If anything opposition to the war is showing sympathy for our fighting men getting put in harms way for an unjustified cause.

2/2/2008 2:04:15 AM

^^ true, i could definitely relate there. concur on all points.

i meant in terms of personal philosophy on almost anything


I'm sure you'd kick my ass ridiculously hard with a sword or any other comparatively primitive weapon (other than maybe a bow...I can shoot arrows with at least some level of proficiency).

I'm sure I'd kick your ass ridiculously hard with a gun or in any hand-to-hand contest (though strength is only part of the equation...i'd rather be good than strong every time).


of course, i'll be moving back to eastern NC in a few months (Cherry Point)...

2/2/2008 2:33:40 AM

Quote :

"If anything opposition to the war is showing sympathy for our fighting men getting put in harms way for an unjustified cause."

Well great then. Why don't Hil and Oba stand in front of the recruiting station and say that?

I mean those protestors are their people, their voters...they should be proud to be seen with them, photographed for all voters to see....right?

2/2/2008 10:16:44 AM

i think u are confused

2/2/2008 12:30:19 PM

Ron Paul is the most anti-war candidate of all.

2/2/2008 1:34:21 PM

Facing off over Marine Corps

Quote :

"The demonstrators promptly said they will keep protesting outside the recruiting station at 64 Shattuck Square until the Marines leave Berkeley - which is what the City Council advised the service to do in a vote Tuesday night that called the Marines 'unwelcome intruders.' The council also voted to allow members of Code Pink, the protest group that helped organize Friday's blockade, to park at a designated space in front of the recruiting office every Wednesday afternoon and operate a loudspeaker. The council's action apparently made Berkeley the first city in the nation to call for the ouster of a military recruiting station from its borders."

Quote :

"The Marines, meanwhile, were not ready to back down. 'It's just another protest,' said Marine Corps Capt. Richard Lund, head of the recruiting office. As he spoke in the early afternoon, with the protesters still chained to his door, a small band of demonstrators on the sidewalk shouted at passing cars and students at Shattuck Square: 'Marines out of Berkeley! Marines out of Iraq!' Heated words were exchanged whenever people tried to enter or leave the office, but the protest was peaceful. 'You guys are just cannon fodder!' the chained protesters shouted at three teenage boys who walked past the office and said they wanted to go inside. 'They want to train you to kill babies!' The teenagers turned around and left. At one point, UC Berkeley student Kyrolos El Giheny walked up to the front door and tried to go inside to talk to Lund about a possible Marine career. He was unable to get past the chained protesters. 'They told me, "No business as usual today,"' El Giheny said. 'It's kind of nutty. It's really an infringement on my rights' [emphasis added]."

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/02/02/BALTUQKOE.DTL

More left-wing lunacy.

[Edited on February 2, 2008 at 4:23 PM. Reason : .]

2/2/2008 4:21:26 PM

^ do you really give two shits what those hippies think. People will bitch about anything. Look at the fiasco over the Jena 6 deal where protesters flooded a small town by the 10,000's to argue racial discrimination and to free a priorly convicted felon who along with 5 friends nearly killed a student at their high school.

Quote :

"The teenagers turned around and left. "

yeah and a lot of teenagers think life revolves around high school gossip, smoking pot, trying to act coo, and drinking beer. What are you getting at hooksaw should we ship these teens to Gitmo for denouncing the military or send in social services since their parents are not doing a good job at creating a good conservative patriotic american.

Quote :

"More left-wing teenage sophmoric immature lunacy"

Teenagers tend to have more leftists ideas, anti-war stances, and supportive of social progressive movements. As they age, start working, and mature the distribution of their political thoughts will blend in more with that of the normal adult population

[Edited on February 2, 2008 at 4:53 PM. Reason : a]

2/2/2008 4:46:28 PM

Quote :

"normal adult population"

LOL

2/2/2008 4:56:15 PM

you know what i'm getting at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_distribution

[Edited on February 2, 2008 at 4:57 PM. Reason : a]

2/2/2008 4:56:38 PM

^ It just struck me as funny for a number of reasons.

2/2/2008 4:58:35 PM

I am curious what program are you in grad school for hooksaw

2/2/2008 5:18:38 PM

^ What's it to you?

2/4/2008 1:15:50 AM

if I'm ever in Raleigh and we're going to run hooksaw out of town on a rail let me know

what an anti-democratic fuck

[Edited on February 5, 2008 at 8:56 AM. Reason : making a farce of freedom]

2/5/2008 8:56:04 AM

Quote :

"Ive asked this question several times and never received much of an answer...should the US always be required to absorb the first blow?"

yes, I believe so
but that is because this belief is one of my moral principles

I believe in the non-aggression axiom
this is different from pacifism in very important ways

namely, IF aggression is made against you there lies a duty to retaliate in such a manner as to ensure that the aggressor never does so again... and why not go ahead and do it so brutally that others who witness you defending yourself consider never attacking you either

2/5/2008 8:59:24 AM

Quote :

"yes, I believe so but that is because this belief is one of my moral principles I believe in the non-aggression axiom this is different from pacifism in very important ways namely, IF aggression is made against you there lies a duty to retaliate in such a manner as to ensure that the aggressor never does so again... and why not go ahead and do it so brutally that others who witness you defending yourself consider never attacking you either"

your model works fine in most situations and I largely agree with it, however what is the cutoff for the 'blow' that must be absorbed before a first strike is ok? is it number of people killed/injured? property? would knowing about 9/11 before it happened warranted a first strike, or was that an acceptable hit to absorb?

to me, one american life is too much to absorb. we should strive at all times to protect our citizens. frankly, while not ideal, if it is between one american life or 100 foreigners, I choose the 100 foreigners. that may sound cruel or harsh but that one american could be a family member of mine or yours. I would never forgive my government for letting something like that happen.

2/5/2008 9:38:29 AM

no way, 9/11 was cause for retaliation

we had every right to fucking annihilate the Taliban in Afghanistan

we didn't have the right to pre-emptively strike Iraq... there was no provocation

and when we did invade Iraq we spread our resources so thin we weren't able to effectively cow our enemies in Afghanistan

every one of those conservative religious fuckers should be dead right now but they aren't

2/5/2008 9:44:11 AM

i agree.

however, are you saying that 9/11 is only an example of an appropriate time to retaliate, or would it have been ok to pre-empt those bastards had we been on our game? this is the point I am getting at. take Iraq out of the equation. I am not talking about that. only 9/11.

[Edited on February 5, 2008 at 9:53 AM. Reason : .]

2/5/2008 9:53:02 AM

Quote :

"would knowing about 9/11 before it happened warranted a first strike, or was that an acceptable hit to absorb?"

ZOMG 9/11 CHANGED EVERYTHING!!! Well if we knew about 9/11 we'd have stopped the hijackers from getting away with their plans.
What are you proposing if there was circumstantial evidence like Saddams "WMDs" we should have rolled our tanks through the middle east looking
for terrorists

On that note i fully supported the Afghanistan campaign as a retaliating move on a gov't supporting and harboring those responsible.

Quote :

"Ive asked this question several times and never received much of an answer...should the US always be required to absorb the first blow"

That is probably what the bully who stuffed hooksaw into a trashcan in highschool said. He was preemptively attacking so
hooksaw didn't beat him with a protractor.

2/5/2008 10:05:14 AM