what about Scientology, since Mormonism is ok.

btw don't you have a surgery to perform or something.

2/6/2008 3:23:08 PM

Quote :

"its pretty stupid not to vote because of that tho. As bad as a choice may be, one is still better than the other and youd be stupid to not at least try and keep the worse option out of the White House, even if the one you are voting for sucks. "

It is thinking like this that keeps the two parties in power. "Hey, you have to vote for one of them!" Bull shit! If more people would use their fucking brain and realize that a vote for these morons is a vote of approval then maybe there would actually be some change in Washington. Until then, I will vote for the candidate that I actually want to be President, and if he isn't on the ballot, then I'll write his ass in.

2/6/2008 5:17:45 PM

Quote :

"I will not vote for mccain and have the guilt that I helped ruin this country."

As opposed to not voting, and having the guilt that you put Hillary into office through your inaction? Doesn't make much sense to me.

2/6/2008 8:28:26 PM

^ thinking like that is what gave us dubya...

2/6/2008 8:40:59 PM

And? Conversely, thinking like I quoted would have given us Gore or Kerry.

I guess the conclusion here is that we haven't had a good presidential candidate for a very long time.

2/6/2008 8:52:57 PM

i would think obama would draw out more republican votes than clinton

2/6/2008 9:00:46 PM

or, enough people saying "enough is enough, quit giving us shitty candidates" and actually voting en masse for a third party candidate...

2/6/2008 9:01:19 PM

It really doesn't matter who the democrats nominate, it could be Richardson and they would still cruise to the White House. Although I would prefer Obama, I don't know how people in good concience (other than really ignorant elderly folks) could vote McCain over Hil-dog.

2/6/2008 9:02:03 PM

i want to know how obama versus mccain would split the independent vote

2/6/2008 9:08:51 PM

Quote :

"You can thank our govt for that. I have a patient that is a huge tobacco farmer. He blames our policies for forcing him to use migrant workers. He says it costs him 15/hr for his migrants. He put off going to migrants for years, but the pool of willing american workers went away. Our policies simply provide people with the basics for doing nothing. He said, would you rather get up at 6am and pull tobbacco for 14 hours or sit at home and make a little less? The govt has taken away responsiblity. That was his take on it. Why work, when you dont have to."

There is a huge number of people chillin out in hammocks all day. You can find them at colleges and universities all over the country. They are typically characterized by an appreciation for PS2, marijuana, and easymac.

2/6/2008 10:14:08 PM

Quote :

"I didnt vote in 06 bc I thought the republicans did nothing and deserved what they got. I was not pleased with their performance so I couldnt bring myself to vote for them. I will not vote for mccain and have the guilt that I helped ruin this country. Amnesty will happen with mccain, there is no doubt in my mind. "

I also didn't vote in '06, and I almost didn't vote in '04 (I finally went to the polls at the last minute and pissed away a bunch of votes for Libertarian candidates--and a handful of worthy Republicans--just out of protest. I voted for Badnarik for President.) I was also at least halfway glad to see the GOP get what it deserved in '06.

As I said in another thread, I'm conservative more or less in the mold of Barry Goldwater and to a slightly lesser extent, Ronald Reagan...and I'm enthusiastically supporting McCain. You fools who are throwing a temper tantrum about it are drinking the talking-head Kool-Aid and about to do something really stupid.


Also, immigration being your #1 hot-button issue--or anything close to it--is kinda silly.

Quote :

"Actually I think Hillary could defeat McCain pretty easily seeing as how she's practically more conservative then he is on almost every issue except national security"

You must be bullshitting. In what regards could Clinton possibly be construed as more conservative than McCain?

Quote :

"Well there is my number one."

Well dude, McCain oughta be your #1 stunna.

I mean, he IS the budget hawk of the field.

Quote :

"Illegal immigration is a complicated problem with no simple solution. I mistrust any politician that has a dogmatic solution to the issue. Those of you who chose Romney, a consumate pragmatist, over McCain based on immigration policy are probably some of the biggest dupes on the planet right now. Second only to those who flock unquestioningly to Obama. "

Well said, except that I view McCain as being at LEAST as pragmatic about immigration as Romney. Romney seemed to parade around what seemed to me to be a contrived immigration boner just because he knew it was a weakness of McCain with the base.

Quote :

"The only people who are directly hurt by illegal immigration are low skilled manual laborers anyway."

I don't think they're hurt very much, anyway.

Quote :

"Did you take out a loan on a house you cant afford? nope, not your fault. We need to take some money from those who were responsible to help you out. "

Yeah, that pisses me off, too. As far as I'm concern, fuck both the lenders and borrowers in question. IF a bailout of any sort is warranted, I say only for the purpose (and to the extent necessary for) keeping those retards from fucking the responsible majority of us. Really, I think it'll just be short term pain (and opportunity) for those of us who didn't do something stupid.

Quote :

"no, im not blaming ANYONE for working in this country. That wasnt my point. The jobs these illegals are doing are jobs that unskilled americans did for years before simply taking the hammock. The problem lies in what happens when you legalize the illegals and now they have the same option. Overnight, to put millions of additional people on the system is a disaster. "

Not going on a witch hunt to round them up and deport them doesn't equate to making them U.S. citizens, though.

Quote :

"A lot of conservatives will eventually fall in line. But they won't support McCain financially. Meanwhile, Hillobama will be flush with cash. McCain and Huckabee went out of their way to bemoan Romney's campaign spending. That should have been clue #1 they don't have a prayer in the general election. "

Obama and Clinton still have a lot of infighting to do, whereas McCain is pretty much coasting, campaigning, and raising cash until the run for the general election begins in earnest.

Also, I think it's pretty well accepted that it's Romney, not McCain, who doesn't have a prayer in the general.

Quote :

"We already lose money on illegals as it is. "

I'm not sure about this. I've seen indications to the contary.

Quote :

"i want to know how obama versus mccain would split the independent vote "

You and everyone else.



oh, and ^

haha

2/6/2008 11:08:02 PM

^responding to your last point

In contests with clinton versus obama, obama pulled the independent vote

In polls where they say "McCain vs. Obama, who would you vote for?" and "McCain vs. Hillary, who would you vote for?" there are consistently larger percentages for Obama against McCain than Hillary against McCain.*

Clearly he pulls more of the independent support from McCain.

*http://www.pollingreport.com/wh08gen.htm

2/6/2008 11:37:15 PM

true, for sure

i should've framed the question as "how much", which i think is kinda up in the air.

2/7/2008 12:19:18 AM

All these threads do is show how [most] Republicans have no idea what being truly conservative or liberal really means. They all think that being liberal is evil and being conservative is whatever the hell they think is right.

2/7/2008 12:27:58 AM

i find all politicians evil. voting is merely voting against certain candidates

2/7/2008 12:30:47 AM

Quote :

"All these threads do is show how [most] Republicans have no idea what being truly conservative or liberal really means. They all think that being liberal is evil and being conservative is whatever the hell they think is right."

Well said.

2/7/2008 12:34:09 AM

^
What happened to the idea that conservatives want less gov't control, lower taxes and more free market solutions, and liberals want more gov't control, higher taxes, and less free market solutions?

2/7/2008 10:22:24 AM

The last couple of elections, I've just voted for the non-incumbent.

2/7/2008 10:48:30 AM

Quote :

"What happened to the idea that conservatives want less gov't control, "

The Bush administration happened. Specifically, Dick Cheney, whose goal for a long time has been to increase executive branch power and government power in general. They really exposed the rise of the "neo-con" idealism coming from some conservatives... "neo-con" thinking being that increased government control is a great thing when it leads to their morals being implemented into government policy.

Quote :

"lower taxes and more free market solutions"

This is still there to some degree, just doesn't seem talked about by the average person.

2/10/2008 6:18:53 AM

Hillary's base will vote for her, but she doesn't have a chance against McCain. He will get swing voters probably, but she will get none. The only people who don't hate her are her die-hard supporters on the far left. If the democrats nominate her, the might as well quit campaigning and save their money for 2012.

2/10/2008 8:19:45 AM

^

2/10/2008 11:08:58 AM

^^ You underestimate how much Bush has pushed away independents from voting Republican. I'm not saying Hillary would be a sure victory, but it would definitely not be a lock for McCain. Just look at the '06 elections.

2/10/2008 8:25:00 PM

Hillary will push democrats away, not just independents.

2/10/2008 9:33:00 PM

^^ so many people hate Hillary, rationally or not. Here is what will happen - it's pretty simple:

Clinton vs. McCain - Clinton will get the hardcore democrats, McCain almost all republicans, Independants will split with advantage towards McCain

Obama vs. McCain - Obama will get all democrats, McCain almost all republicans, Independants will split with advantage towards Obama

bam, that simple. I'm a pundit - get me a job at CNN

2/10/2008 9:49:44 PM

Quote :

"Clinton vs. McCain - Clinton will get the hardcore democrats, McCain almost all republicans, Independants will split with advantage towards McCain Obama vs. McCain - Obama will get all democrats, McCain almost all republicans, Independants will split with advantage towards Obama "

Let me fix this just a bit.

Clinton vs. McCain - Clinton will get the hardcore democrats, McCain almost all republicans, Independants will split with advantage towards McCain.

Obama vs. McCain - Obama will get almost all democrats, McCain almost all republicans will have less republican turnout, Independents will split with advantage towards Obama


Many republicans that irrationally hate McCain would still turn out simply because they hate Hillary more. Against Obama, this is much less likely.

2/10/2008 9:54:11 PM

here are recent head-to-head projections, showing on average McCain over Clinton by 1.6%, but Obama over McCain by 3.3%
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/national.html

2/10/2008 9:55:08 PM

You do realize that the election isn't for 8 months and that Hillary is a very tough campaigner, right? McCain has already shown a talent for screwing up royally. If it weren't for the weakness of all the other candidates, he would have lost the nomination back in September. I don't give a fuck what polls say. Polls don't mean shit. That's already been proven by the fact that McCain has won so many primaries. He wasn't projected to win many of those states based on polls.

2/11/2008 2:39:47 AM

^Plus its her birthright. Don't leave that part out of the equation.

2/11/2008 8:28:43 AM

^^ i think you're underestimating the hatred so many people have for Hillary. Republicans despise her, and no amount of campaigning is going to make them like her. They may not be huge fans of McCain, but even so, that's not going to make them switch to Hillary.

Obama more or less has a clean slate - nobody has a real reason to hate him (unless they're just straight-up racist, or they believe the fwd'ed emails about him being Muslim or whatever). What some people see as his biggest liability, his relative lack of experience, may be a good asset in that he doesn't have a ton of baggage that he can't get rid of, like Clinton has.

2/11/2008 8:37:10 AM

^I don't know about all that. I say that if she wells up with tears exactly three more times between now and November that some Republicans will start to like her.

2/11/2008 8:41:32 AM

Man, look at how Obama stomps Huckabee in those polls. Somehow I doubt anything like that would happen in an actual election.

2/11/2008 9:25:22 AM

If hillary finds a way to beat obama she'll find a way to beat McCain.

The republican field is amazingly weak and the platform is amazingly weak as well.

Couple that with the fact that American's have a 3 month attention span and it becomes a war of spinsters.

Difference between obama and clinton on that fact is that Republicans have been hounding the clintons for over a decade so unless bill fucked someone new there really isn't going to be any heat coming from the republican side on Clinton that the public already hasn't seen.

I seriously fear an Obama-McCain showdown because despite what polls say now, McCain seriously trumps Obama on experience.

2/11/2008 9:57:49 AM

Quote :

"If hillary finds a way to beat obama she'll find a way to beat McCain."

It will have to be a different method. She can beat Obama easily. Just bribe/blackmail the super delegates and presto. Doesn't matter who wins the popular vote. She won't have as easy a job with McCain.

2/11/2008 10:27:21 AM

our presidential election process is anything but democratic.

2/11/2008 10:38:11 AM

Quote :

"If hillary finds a way to beat obama she'll find a way to beat McCain. The republican field is amazingly weak and the platform is amazingly weak as well. Couple that with the fact that American's have a 3 month attention span and it becomes a war of spinsters. Difference between obama and clinton on that fact is that Republicans have been hounding the clintons for over a decade so unless bill fucked someone new there really isn't going to be any heat coming from the republican side on Clinton that the public already hasn't seen. I seriously fear an Obama-McCain showdown because despite what polls say now, McCain seriously trumps Obama on experience."

I agree with all of this except I dont think Hillary can beat McCain.

2/11/2008 10:49:26 AM

I will not vote for hillary ever.

2/11/2008 11:01:14 AM

Hilary would start the general election campaign with high negatives, most of those not coming from Democratic primary voters. Thus, it doesn't follow that she could easily beat McCain if she got past Obama. She can still win, but she would need to run a near perfect campaign. I also don't buy the argument that everyone has already heard everything against her, so it doesn't matter. The Repulican machine would obviously come after either one. However, I think the Republicans could just refer to their old playbook on Hilary, but aren't yet sure how to run against Obama.

Quote :

"I seriously fear an Obama-McCain showdown because despite what polls say now, McCain seriously trumps Obama on experience."

As superficial as it may sound, I welcome seeing McCain standing next to Obama in a debate, especially if it is in HD. I'm not sure the experience argument trumps the combo of old age and disgust with Washington.




Also, a scenario where superdelegates tip the nomination the other way from pledged delegates, or some similar sense of illegitimacy of the process, is the one scenario where I would have a hard time supporting the Democratic nominee.

2/11/2008 11:01:43 AM

Quote :

"Difference between obama and clinton on that fact is that Republicans have been hounding the clintons for over a decade so unless bill fucked someone new there really isn't going to be any heat coming from the republican side on Clinton that the public already hasn't seen. "

yeah, like ^, i don't buy this argument. It's just rhetoric from the Clinton campaign to use against Obama. If the republicans want to dig up more dirt on Hillary that we haven't seen before, I'm sure they will. Or they will just start re-hashing all the arguments used against the Clintons in the 90s

2/11/2008 11:22:42 AM

I am so sick of this bullshit experience argument. Is experience now solely limited to actions done in Washington? Obama was a State Senator for 8 years, a US Senator for 3 years, was President of the Harvard Law Review, was a community organizer and campaigner. He serves on the Foreign Relations Committee, the Veterans Affairs Committee, Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee.

There is a wealth of Experience outside of Washington DC. Obama has that experience and he has Beltway experience. If experience was only judged by how long someone has served in Government inside Washington DC, then Robert Byrd and Ted Stevens should be the respective nominees for their parties. But we realize that that is not all to being President and that is not all there is to experience.

2/11/2008 12:16:54 PM

Yes

And President Bush led companies and the State of Texas.

Statement destroyed.

[Edited on February 11, 2008 at 12:27 PM. Reason : D.C experience is a necessity. ]

2/11/2008 12:26:51 PM

If we are to truly use that argument against Obama, then it means we should never elect a Governor, since Bush as a Governor. Nevermind, Ronald Reagan, Bill Clinton, Franklin Roosevelt, Calvin Coolidge, Woodrow Wilson, etc.

Would you say a 1 term Representative was qualified enough to serve as President of the United States?

2/11/2008 12:30:38 PM

I dont actually care to even discuss that.

I'm merely pointing out that 'experience' isn't a bullshit argument.

Want to make a list of American and Global leaders with no experience and see how many of them were successful? I think we know which column would be a lot larger.

[Edited on February 11, 2008 at 12:33 PM. Reason : >.<]

2/11/2008 12:33:10 PM

Why won't you answer the question?

You have bought fully into the warped Clinton talking point. The fact remains that Obama is an experienced candidate, but you have twisted that experience into no experience.

2/11/2008 12:41:54 PM

Hilary has only been in the US Senate slightly longer than Barack, so I am forced to conclude your logic is one of the following:

a) US Senate experience is the only experience relevant for a presidential candidate

b) The position of First Lady provides far better better experience than being an elected representative at the state level.

2/11/2008 12:57:18 PM

only 2 prez have gone directly from senate to prez.

Senator isnt an executive office. A governor is better prepared than a senator imo.

2/11/2008 2:47:57 PM

you are going to have a senator this year.

2/11/2008 2:50:49 PM

I fear you are right.

2/11/2008 2:53:02 PM

By my math, we've had 4 presidents go directly from the Senate to President.

JFK, Harding, Benjamin Harrison, and Franklin Pierce.

2/11/2008 3:10:12 PM

Just two senators have gone directly from the Senate to the White House. John F. Kennedy was one. The other was Warren G. Harding. Fourteen men have served in the Senate and, after intermediate stops, gone on to be president, many ascending from the vice presidency

Not that it matter much, but im thinking just the two.

Obama will win the pres. Does anyone know if there are enough repubs to block an amnesty or universal healthcare in the house and senate? Thanks

2/11/2008 3:38:18 PM

sure there was a small break with pierce and harrison, but besides that, their experience was in the Senate.

2/11/2008 3:41:32 PM