If I ever get arrested for robbing a bank or something, I wonder if I can do like the illegal alien defenders and play the sympathy card since I was simply looking for a better life

2/14/2008 12:09:43 PM

i was not referring specifically to the illegal hispanic americans. truthfully they have to work hard b.c they can not get free handouts and sit back on the recliner all day since they are illegal.

I was referring to the lower class americans in general.

^ I hope you could at least recognize the difference btw a mexican crossing an arbitrary line created by politics seeking employment and someone who physically deprives someone or some company of their physical propery/assets which in your example is a bank and its money.

[Edited on February 14, 2008 at 12:15 PM. Reason : s]

2/14/2008 12:11:06 PM

Quote :

"they can not get free handouts and sit back on the recliner all day since they are illegal."

millions of illegal aliens get government assistance

2/14/2008 12:13:49 PM

^^ Hispanics are the only currently "exploding" portion of the population. So who were you referring to then?

Either way, the current questionable state of the economy has more to do with unscrupulous members of the "haves" encouraging the "have-nots" to take out loans they shouldn't have qualified for in order for the "haves"' to have more.

I'm no class warrior / Marxist, not by a long shot, but lets call it as it is, shall we?

2/14/2008 12:15:22 PM

so you do not think different crimes warrant different punishments??

robbing a bank can get you 40 years. so are we going to lock illegals up for 40 years in which the tax payer will pay for them to rot in jail. Likewise something like smoking pot doesn't carry the same punishment and is easier to get off your record then getting a DUI.

i apologize must not have read that part of the article

[Edited on February 14, 2008 at 12:17 PM. Reason : a]

2/14/2008 12:16:45 PM

Quote :

"I hope you could at least recognize the difference btw a mexican crossing an arbitrary line created by politics seeking employment and someone who physically deprives someone or some company of their physical propery/assets which in your example is a bank and its money."

What about the arbitrary law that you can't rob a bank, compared to depriving taxpayers of even more of their own hard earned money by providing government assistance to illegal aliens? how bout the movie Dead Presidents? they came back from Vietnam and couldnt get work so they robbed a bank...they were just looking for a better life

my point is, people always seem to ignore the ILLEGAL part of 'illegal aliens' because they want to talk about how they work so hard!

2/14/2008 12:17:52 PM

Quote :

"people always seem to ignore the ILLEGAL part of 'illegal aliens' substances"

*cough*

2/14/2008 12:19:07 PM

Quote :

"unscrupulous members of the "haves" encouraging the "have-nots" to take out loans they shouldn't have qualified for in order for the "haves"' to have more."

you signed a contract on a home you knew you couldnt afford...but its somebody else's fault

don't save up until you can afford a home...just buy it, after all you can blame somebody else...then maybe the government can help you pay for it!

2/14/2008 12:19:54 PM

No, the point is, the loan officers made it seem as if these loans were affordable, there are cases of loan officers outright lying. Do I hold those who signed the documents liable for their signatures? Absolutely, but I hold those who deliberately fed false, or "adjusted" information to others from a position of trust equally responsible.

A salesman has a responsibility to fairly represent his product. While this wasn't done in all cases, it was obviously done enough to cause the current crisis.

2/14/2008 12:22:03 PM

you should know enough about your own finances to know if you can afford to buy a house or not and if you can't, you shouldn't buy one...i don't have sympathy for people that run up huge credit card debts and then don't have the money to pay them off simply because they didn't understand how things work

you seem to want to blame shiesty loan officers for economic problems and completely ignore the millions and millions and millions of illegal immigrants who get government assistance without paying income taxes, by playing the sympathy card

if i see a commercial that says i can get a car for $299 a month, and i dont realize its actually going to be more than $299.00 per month due to taxes, fees, interest, is that the car dealership's fault? or maybe should i do a little research before i buy something expensive...

2/14/2008 12:23:37 PM

^I agree, but in neither case should the govt step in and bail out the companies or the borrowers for their bad behavior/decisions.

BTW, is it not unconstitutional to take federal money to pay for private property? I heard that once.

2/14/2008 12:24:40 PM

i definitely agree...that is what keeps our economy in the relative shitter...the government bailing out a bunch of idiots, lenders, borrowers, whoever

2/14/2008 12:25:34 PM

Quote :

"i don't have sympathy for people that run up huge credit card debts and then don't have the money to pay them off"

This is a related but seperate issue from questionable loan practices. Credit card debt is hitting middle class America the hardest, this isn't an issue of loan repayment, and I've been on record as being opposed to a consumption based lifestyle for quite some time.

Quote :

"you seem to want to blame shiesty loan officers for economic problems and completely ignore the millions and millions and millions of illegal immigrants who get government assistance without paying income taxes, by playing the sympathy card"

I want to blame sheisty loan officers for being sheisty loan officers. This has nothing to do with illegal immigration.

If anything, the housing crisis has helped new immigrants by lowering home prices.

Lets try and stick to one topic instead of follwing your thoughts across that weed-addled wasteland that is your brain.

2/14/2008 12:31:40 PM

whats that one topic, making weed comments and personal attacks on me? i guess since playing the sympathy card didnt work on me you resort to personal attacks...nice...its more original than telling me about the long and arduous journey to break into our country and get free government assistance in search of a better life

2/14/2008 12:35:48 PM

A more nimble mind would notice that I'm simultaneously pointing out the incongruity of your statements while also addressing your hypocrisy in criticizing others for illegal behavior.

I just phrased it in a personal attack because it made me smile inside.


My reference to what illegal immigrants put up with to get here wasn't intended to generate sympathy. Illegal immigration is a complicated problem which needs to be adressed pragmatically, not dogmatically. My reference to the difficulties of coming to America are meant to point out that the people who actually make it are anything but lazy. That is a stereotype that has long outlived any semblance of validity.

2/14/2008 12:38:44 PM

a less retarded mind would use better debate tactics than personal attacks based on outdated screen names or playing the sympathy card

who cares if they are lazy or not...they're taking millions and millions of tax dollars and using it without paying taxes themselves...i'm sick enough of legal citizens getting my taxpayer handouts...i dont need illegal non-citizens getting any more

it just seems like everything you say about illegal aliens are good things about how they benefit us and how that far outweighs any negatives

[Edited on February 14, 2008 at 12:45 PM. Reason : .]

2/14/2008 12:40:55 PM

You're assuming the only value that they add to the economy is through taxes. I'm not saying thaty their saints or that their benefits are unmatched by challenges. I'm aware of that. What I am opposed to is the use of ignorant stereotypes and red herrings as a thin mask for racism. (Not saying that anyone in here is racist, but that is the driving force in a lot of this debate on the outside.)

To be honest, I can empathize with those who are disturbed by the influx of Hispanic immigrants in a short period of time, I just don't think the solution is to round them all up and send them back to Mexico.

And fucking 'a man, I've stated twice that I'm not looking for sympathy, I'm not correcting you again.

So long as you argue that those illegals who enter the country, and never to do another illegal act, are criminals, then I'll argue that you're to be considered a criminal due to your past. Is it dogmatic and asinine? Yes. But that is the point.

2/14/2008 12:44:13 PM

Quote :

"illegals who enter the country, never to do another illegal act, are criminals"

never to do another illegal act? wow thats ignorant/naive/idiotic and probably explains why you're so clueless on this issue

just keep focusing on my screen name instead of the substance of my articles

hey maybe i should change everything you say into a discussion about johnny cash since thats implied in your screenname

[Edited on February 14, 2008 at 12:48 PM. Reason : im done]

2/14/2008 12:45:56 PM

Ahhhh, ya got me.

Touche.

2/14/2008 12:48:30 PM

Quote :

"What I am opposed to is the use of ignorant stereotypes and red herrings as a thin mask for racism. "

what are you talking about? is anyone opposed to massive scale illegal immigration a racist? is not wanting millions of people leaching off the government (taxpayers) racist?

and maybe you can explain the "never to do another illegal act" part since not paying income taxes and living in the country without a visa or green card are illegal in themselves

plus i worked in landscaping after school in 11th grade...mowing lawns, running a weed eater, etc...and for 3 years in high school during the summer i worked in construction full time...out in the field doing whatever...grunt work...so i don't buy the argument that illegal immigrants are doing the jobs that "no American" would do

[Edited on February 14, 2008 at 1:05 PM. Reason : .]

2/14/2008 12:49:09 PM

Quote :

"running a weed eater"

ahahaha . . . I won't go there



I wasn't implying that you, Twista are a racist, you haven't struck me as such, so I apologize if it came across that way, but a large portion of this debate is driven by the fact that these people look and talk different from what people are used to. In fairness, this is a completely understandable reaction, I'll leave it at that.

2/14/2008 1:11:46 PM

Twista, please cite for me some figures on what illegals take as far as money from government resources. As state previously most do not, in fact, take money from loads of services because they are afraid of getting found out. Also, they help benefit our economy by not only keeping prices low, but by buying the products made here that many americans choose not to buy themselves.

2/14/2008 2:11:49 PM

I am looking at a report created by the congressional budget Office, The Impact of Unauthorized Immigrants on the Budgets of State and Local Governments, and it arrives at a thoroughly different conclusion than you Twista. For instance, in Texas, the was $424 million more in revenue from illegal immigrants than it spent towards providing education, health care, and law enforcement activities for that population. New Mexico, collected $69 million from illegal immigrants and spent only $67-68 million on them. Missouri, averaged between $3.5 million to $7.7 million in excess revenue from illegal immigrants.

2/14/2008 2:21:46 PM

every now and then TreeTwista10 says a few intelligent things and i think, "hey, he's not that dumb"

and then he goes and makes arguments like the ones in this thread

2/14/2008 2:48:44 PM

Texans spend more than $4 billion annually on education for illegal immigrant children and for their U.S.-born siblings. About 11.9 percent of the K-12 public school students in Texas are children of illegal aliens, according to the study.

Taxpayer-funded medical outlays for health care provided to the state's illegal alien population amount to about $520 million a year, according to FAIR.

The uncompensated cost of incarcerating illegal aliens in Texas' state and county prisons amounts to about $150 million a year (not including local jail detention costs or related law enforcement and judicial expenditures or the monetary costs of the crimes that led to their incarceration). State and local taxes paid by the unauthorized immigrant population go toward offsetting these costs, but they do not come near to matching the expenses. The total of such payments are a little less than $1 billion per year.


California's nearly 3 million illegal immigrants cost taxpayers nearly $9 billion each year, according to a new report released last week by the Federation for American Immigration Reform, a Washington, D.C.-based group that promotes stricter immigration policies.
Educating the children of illegal immigrants is the largest cost, estimated at $7.7 billion each year, according to the report. Medical care for illegal immigrants and incarceration of those who have committed crimes are the next two largest expenses measured in the study, the author said.


Just how many hospitals have closed in california due to this problem?

Between 1993 and 2003, 60 California hospitals closed because half their services became unpaid. Another 24 California hospitals verge on closure.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C07E6D8163EF932A1575BC0A9629C8B63

2/14/2008 3:29:41 PM

Quote :

"What about the arbitrary law that you can't rob a bank, compared to depriving taxpayers of even more of their own hard earned money by providing government assistance to illegal aliens?"

Could you please provide a source for illegals receiving gov't handouts. Not saying you are lying but I have never heard this before.

Quote :

" you signed a contract on a home you knew you couldn't afford...but its somebody else's fault"

All the paperwork for buying a house is pretty much a book. I am not excusing people for not reading the ENTIRE contract or hiring
a lawyer to help them interpret the contract. Regardless banks can easily inflate the "fine print" and add so much verbatim just
for the sake of trying to exploit your average american. I blame both the moron who signed up for a shitty mortgage and the loan officers
for getting greedy but then got stuck footing the balance when the home owner defaulted. This is analogous to the car sales men who sells you a lemon.
Is it 100% the customers fault for not doing their auto research and taking the car into a through inspection prior to purchase??
Meanwhile the salesman has no liability for bending the truth if not straight lying to sell the car.

Quote :

"you should know enough about your own finances to know if you can afford to buy a house or not and if you can't, you shouldn't buy one"

To be fair not everyone has a college education and your average American is not that responsible. I really have not quite figured out
my exact stance on if stupid people deserve to lose their money. On one hand I have no sympathy for the person that downs 1/2 their rent
on lottery tickets, yet I think when it comes some major financial issues like buying a house due to the complexity of the legal system
the consumer deserves a degree of transparency. You are right about a Joe Idiot who racks up an enormous Credit card debt trying
to keep up with the Jones's they deserve to crash and burn. The only person that can get away with pretending credit is magical money
is the US govt.

2/14/2008 3:39:48 PM

Quote :

"Texans spend more than $4 billion annually on education for illegal immigrant children and for their U.S.-born siblings. About 11.9 percent of the K-12 public school students in Texas are children of illegal aliens, according to the study."

Well if these illegal immigrants were here then their children ARE american citizens. Therefore the tax payer is paying for American children to be educated. You should be more concerned about the issue of any person born on American soil is an american. This stipulation had a purpose in the 1700's but I feel in the modern age this needs to eliminated.

Either way I do not see a problem in providing education money for children of illegals. It is not the kids fault that their parents desperate for employment came to america. I would rather have them in school then causing trouble on the street when they reach their teens. Besides educating them is FAR better economically then having some illiterate low-skilled hispanic AMERICAN leeching welfare.

Otherwise I do have a MAJOR problem with illegals receiving gov't paid for healthcare, SS, or any other kind of benefit. I oppose your view on illegals as far as I do not give a flying fuck if they tuk yur jerb at some blue collar job. They can come build my new fence for $2/hr. Once retirement comes around or if they have medical issues then as far as i'm concerned too bad too sad; maybe its time to pack your bags for Mexico. If I want to sell drugs I can make a profit, however, when i get mugged and lose $2K in product I can not go cry to the police. This is part of the risk of the job. Likewise if you come here illegally feel free to make your $2.50/hr but do not cry to our gov't when you need money for healthcare or retirement.

[Edited on February 14, 2008 at 3:48 PM. Reason : aa]

2/14/2008 3:44:21 PM

^^^What do you think is more up to date, a newspaper article from 2004, or a Report from the Congressional Budget Office from December 2007?

2/14/2008 3:57:11 PM

California spends over $10 billion a year on illegal immigrants

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigrationnaturalizatio/a/caillegals.htm

Quote :

"$7.7 billion a year to school the children of illegal aliens who now constitute 15 percent of the student body. Another $1.4 billion of the taxpayers' money goes toward providing health care to illegal aliens and their families, the same amount that is spent incarcerating illegal aliens criminals."

Arizona effectively spent $1.5 billion in 2005 by lowering wages of jobs across the board which includes all "non-immigrant" / American jobs

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/business/articles/0109biz-illlegalscost0110-ON.html

US to pay medical bills for illegal immigrants

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/05/10/heallth.illegal.ap/

and here are a few pieces from the CBO Report that nutsmackr read that follow what I've been saying

Quote :

"Most available studies conclude that the unauthorized population pays less in state and local taxes than it costs state and local governments to provide services to that population"

Quote :

"State and local governments incur costs for providing services to unauthorized immigrants and have limited options for avoiding or minimizing those costs. All of the estimates that CBO reviewed, regardless of the jurisdiction examined or programs considered, reached this conclusion."

Quote :

"Federal aid programs offer resources to state and local governments that provide services to unauthorized immigrants, but those funds do not fully cover the costs incurred by those governments"

Quote :

"many estimates also show that the cost of providing public services to unauthorized immigrants at the state and local levels exceeds what that population pays in state and local taxes"

Quote :

"the federal government requires that state and local governments provide certain services to individuals, regardless of their immigration status or ability to pay"

nutsmackr why would you mislead people by saying that report comes to a "thoroughly different conclusion" than I did? Let alone the assertion that their benefits slightly financially outweigh their cost over the long term includes LEGAL immigrants in those statistics! Nobody is arguing against legal immigration so why does that even factor into the report?

btw here is that report in HTML format http://tinyurl.com/2u9765 or PDF format http://tinyurl.com/2rq52t

I'm shocked that me informing you that illegal immigrants cost taxpayers money is some kind of surprise to some of you

Quote :

"To be fair not everyone has a college education and your average American is not that responsible"

I am a legal citizen and I pay taxes, yet most illegal immigrants do not pay taxes...is that fair? Either way its not the government's (you and me) responsibility to pay for (with our money) some idiot's mortgage when they should've saved up in the first place...if you're not college educated or responsible maybe you should save up some more money before you buy something you can't afford

Quote :

"I oppose your view on illegals as far as I do not give a flying fuck if they tuk yur jerb at some blue collar job"

so you say you don't have a problem with the government (us) paying (our tax money) to educate American kids since they are American, but you don't care when an illegal takes a job from an American??

Quote :

"if you come here illegally feel free to make your $2.50/hr but do not cry to our gov't when you need money for healthcare"

Why would they cry? They would just go to an emergency room and get free (free to them, not free to US taxpayers) medical care and our government WOULD/DOES pay for it

Quote :

"they help benefit our economy by not only keeping prices low"

the prices better be low since they have driven the wages down as well...lower prices don't allow you to buy more when your wages are also lower

2/14/2008 4:01:02 PM

Quote :

"the prices better be low since they have driven the wages down as well"

Not really. The market for legal and illegal workers is seperate. Due to this countries minimum wage requirements, the downward pressure can only go so far. With relatively low unemployment we can assume that those who want to be employed in the legal market are, and that the impact that illegal immigrants have on wages is marginal.



But we can bitch about this all day long, or we can discuss actual solutions: /message_topic.aspx?topic=514652

2/14/2008 4:29:46 PM

Quote :

"i think the number was 2030 about 8 years ago"

well my us history ap teacher told me this like 6.5 years ago but he said 2050 also

2/14/2008 4:31:36 PM

dude i was pretty much agreeing with you so what exactly are u refuting from my points about asserting that illegals shouldn't be getting free healthcare and retirement since they are hence illegally here.

please reference my drug dealer analogy. I mean since those illegals piss you off so much whats the solution?? are we going to build a super tall fence. or should we reallocate $1000's that are say being used for the social programs they benefit from and use this money to help ship them back to mexico. Even if we did this it would be like using a 20oz solo cup to bail water out of a boat that has a 1" hole in the hull. I say the best solution is to keep the status quo as far as exportation and just let them flounder when they get old. If the opportunity cost for coming to the US is possibly dying b.c you can not get free healthcare then maybe they would reconsider. The only other possible solution is removal of the minimum wage. Given the attitude of many americans i feel that many would decide to kick back on the recliner making welfare than perform some job whose market value is $4/hr.

The illegal mexicans provide a valuable cheap niche' labor pool that would not otherwise exist.
HUR is

PRO: Cheap mexican labor
CON: Social and health programs for illegals since they don't pay taxes
PHILOSOPHY: you come here to work but it is at your own risk

Quote :

"I am a legal citizen and I pay taxes, yet most illegal immigrants do not pay taxes...is that fair? Either way its not the government's (you and me) responsibility to pay for (with our money) some idiot's mortgage when they should've saved up in the first place...if you're not college educated or responsible maybe you should save up some more money before you buy something you can't afford"

It is the governments job to play referee and ensure corporations are not unfairly exploiting the american people and to resolve any conflicts of interests between the two. Conversely the gov't needs to ensure a healthy market place for businesses to thrive and profit. Obviously something needed to be fixed since Avg Joe defaulting on his house screws over the bank nearly as much Joe losing the house. The current system allows the RIAA to continue its extortion of the american people. This is one issue where i think the gov't needs to play referee and tell them to shove their $3000 litigation settlements up there ass.

[Edited on February 14, 2008 at 4:38 PM. Reason : a]

2/14/2008 4:34:29 PM

A number of people asked for some type of stats/numbers as far as economic impacts of illegal immigrants, so I simply provided some of those

HUR I still don't get your whole "DEY TURK UR JARBS" stance...do you really think tens of thousands of Americans losing their jobs due to cheaper immigrant labor is funny? Does trivializing negative impacts of illegal immigration on American working class people and their families never get old to you?

2/14/2008 4:45:15 PM

The majority of jobs lost are due to increased efficiency, not outsourcing or immigration. The latter two are simply easier targets than robots.

That being said, HUR does come across as a moron pretty regularly.

2/14/2008 4:50:02 PM

So the Americans deserve those jobs just because they were born in America?

2/14/2008 4:50:39 PM

They deserve the opportunity to work those jobs moreso than somebody who is here illegally

2/14/2008 4:59:17 PM

Quote :

"do you really think tens of thousands of Americans losing their jobs due to cheaper immigrant labor is funny"

i do not think the rate of unemployment increase has matched the rate of illegal immigration
so one or several of the following must be true

a. the illegals are filling niche employment that would otherwise be not economical b.c of min wage
b. our lower class blue collar friends obtained a new skill to obtain a new if not better job
c. our lower class friends were already unemployed to which they blamed something else
d. the demand for certain services and goods created by the prescense of illegal immigrants has created new job opportunities for US citizens.

either way monetarily the illegals benefit me positively so i could care less. the only people taking my jobs are the foreigners from asia our gov't gladly hands visas to or our companies send offshore.

Quote :

"They deserve the opportunity to work those jobs moreso than somebody who is here illegally"

this humanist attitude almost sounds like something i would hear from a liberal. who we know heavily considers the concerns of every man woman and child. A true conservative (except the lower class blue collar ones) should enjoy the profits from realizing illegals and consider it as a FU to the gov't for forcing minimum wages

[Edited on February 14, 2008 at 5:58 PM. Reason : l]

2/14/2008 5:55:57 PM

i just dont know how you can be opposed to companies outsourcing jobs overseas, but not care at all when DOMESTIC jobs are given away

and i already mentioned i've worked in both landscaping and construction when i was in high school and during the summers...the whole "nobody wants to work these jobs" thing isnt true

2/14/2008 6:22:43 PM

^ not really opposed. It sucks but i adapt.

Quote :

"and i already mentioned i've worked in both landscaping and construction when i was in high school and during the summers...the whole "nobody wants to work these jobs" thing isnt true"

didn't realize that

2/14/2008 7:22:34 PM

Zimbabwe Part II.

2/14/2008 7:47:50 PM

I'll always be a minority here so I'll just do my job and make money while everyone else fights over stupid shit.

2/14/2008 9:30:24 PM

Quote :

"There is no question that racism, or at least a discomfort with other races underlies the premise of the thread. That being said, black America gets away with a rather large amount of racism simply because they haven't been in a position to institutionalize it. That doesn't make it any less racist."

JCASHFAN

The part about the "premise" of this thread is total horseshit--find one instance of me being racist on TWW or anywhere else, for that matter. I judge people by the content of their character, not the color of their skin.

I was simply passing along a story about the changing face of America that ABC News felt was important enough to broadcast. And if hordes of white Canadians suddenly start illegally entering the United States, I'll be damned concerned about and work against that, too.

Don't try to put me into your little stereotypical right-wing box, JCASH, it just doesn't fit me. And the fucking shame of it is you know it doesn't fit me.

2/15/2008 12:10:54 AM

well shit i agree w/ hooksaw above

2/15/2008 12:24:34 AM

whites will not be a minority in 2050

at 47%, they'll still be the single largest ethnic group in the country.




why is math so hard?

2/15/2008 1:01:01 AM

u ain't from around here are ya boy

2/15/2008 1:03:30 AM

^^ Um. . .it's not.

"Non-Hispanic whites" = 47%

Everyone else = 53%

"Non-Hispanic whites" = Minority

minority

Quote :

"the smaller part or number; a number, part, or amount forming less than half of the whole."

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/minority

But you make a good point--hey, I didn't write the fucking story. The author should have pointed out that "non-Hispanic whites" would be still the largest subset of the population.

2/15/2008 1:54:50 AM

that would be a plurality

2/15/2008 5:29:51 AM

only racists and people who only see white people on a daily basis care about this.

2/15/2008 8:47:00 AM

^ So ABC News

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=4275577

Reuters

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN1110177520080211

Niraj Warikoo of the Detroit Free Press

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080211/NEWS07/80211031

And many others are all racists? STFU, stooge.

2/15/2008 11:34:44 AM

The main problem with this is a lot of stuff can change in 45 years. Look at the past 45 years. Like as Flyin Ryan said "Who knows, in 2050 our grandchildren might be trying to illegally emigrate into Mexico."
It also hasn't taken into account all the babies I'm going make to offset this.

but,

Quote :

""Seriously. WHO GIVES A SHIT?""

2/15/2008 11:46:21 AM