your question has been answered so many times in this thread, in so many different ways

6/10/2008 11:39:23 AM

so if i understand correctly, your point is that i can't adequately form a rational opinion because i haven't lived in your "real" world long enough?

or that one day i'll see the light and become a conservative?

[Edited on June 10, 2008 at 11:44 AM. Reason : .]

6/10/2008 11:43:06 AM

i figured you'd finally get it by now, but i guess not

6/10/2008 11:44:42 AM

condescension doesn't accomplish much.

and again: you've steered the conversation completely off-course by making this personal.

this is why i was resisting answering your questions before.

making debates about the debater is a sure-fire way to stir up emotions and waste time.

[Edited on June 10, 2008 at 11:47 AM. Reason : .]

6/10/2008 11:46:10 AM

ONCE again. yet another liberal who steps up to claim his entitled portion of society for free from the masses without giving back to society with the hardwork to in fact create these "free" handouts.


lololerz @ http://sarastools.com/Idontneedajob/come_get_free_gubmentHandout.aspx?taxes=High?Obama=GODAlmightyMessiah&Mentality=IdontgiveashitbcItsFree

6/10/2008 11:46:36 AM

but at least twista isn't as bad as ^

6/10/2008 11:47:50 AM

awesome read. Dead on accurate.

Quote :

"You need to register to vote, unless you are on welfare. If you are living off the efforts of others, please do us the favor of sitting down and shutting up until you are on your own again."

I love that quote.

6/10/2008 11:49:29 AM

you either get it or you don't...you'll get it one day though...hopefully...for your sake

but please...if you flat out don't have any experience with what someone is talking about...don't act like you do

6/10/2008 11:52:09 AM

^^ Should we own land too?

6/10/2008 12:06:40 PM

Quote :

"you either get it or you don't...you'll get it one day though...hopefully...for your sake"

liberals say the same thing about conservatives.

6/10/2008 12:07:10 PM

yeah i know i used to say that shit in high school when i didnt know any better, when i was still young and dumb and thought the world worked how they said it worked...then i realized how it actually worked

6/10/2008 12:08:01 PM

This is why having a conversation with you is pointless. Instead of arguing on the merits you have decided to cast the entire opposition as dumb and naive. Disagreement does not mean someone is dumb it means they disagree.

6/10/2008 12:11:56 PM

Quote :

"This is why having a conversation with you is pointless. Instead of arguing on the merits you have decided to cast the entire opposition as dumb and naive. Disagreement does not mean someone is dumb it means they disagree. "

I agree with this sentiment, but TreeTwista10 isn't the only one guilty of this. Half the liberals on this board refuse to concede a point, even when they're wrong.

I seem to recall you and others trying to claim that Iran was more democratic than not.

6/10/2008 12:21:42 PM

Quote :

"Should we own land too?"

depends. Do I think I should be paying to feed you, house you, and for your healthcare when you have spent all your money on real estate? No, I do not.

Look I got into an argument with my dad over his father inlaw. My grandfather had to sell his farm and go through his life savings before medicaid would cover the care for his wife in a nursing home. My dad thought that was unfair. I disagree. I think its unfair to ask others to pay for things simply bc you dont WANT to pay for them, but have or could obtain the means.

6/10/2008 12:21:45 PM

^ Did they not have health insurance?

6/10/2008 12:23:03 PM

^^^An argument supported with evidence is not the same as blanket statements on one's intelligence.

^^The point flew directly over your head. It was direct reference to the initial requirements to vote before they were slackened.

[Edited on June 10, 2008 at 12:25 PM. Reason : .]

6/10/2008 12:24:27 PM

medicare. However it doesnt cover long term care apparently(or not fully). And you dont qualify for medicaid until you have spent most of your assets. Which is the way it should be.

sorry nuts, I did miss your reference. But I like boortz's point.

[Edited on June 10, 2008 at 12:27 PM. Reason : .]

6/10/2008 12:26:36 PM

^^ Yes, but oftentimes I and others look at your "evidence" and reach completely different conclusions and are quickly branded as right-wing retards and the like for not seeing it your way.

And I shudder to think what kind of government programs you would support if you truly believe Iran is anything more than a democracy in name alone.

[Edited on June 10, 2008 at 12:27 PM. Reason : asdf]

6/10/2008 12:27:29 PM

Quote :

"an argument supported with evidence is not the same as blanket statements on one's intelligence."

how was my response to your post any more ludicrous than your post itself? i claimed people either got it or didnt...you said its essentially the same on the other side of the aisle...i responded in kind...yet i'm somehow in the wrong here and you're not?

6/10/2008 12:29:11 PM

I shudder to think what your arguing prowess would be if you could do more than find one word you disagree with and harp on it--formulating real arguments on the real breadth of the argument instead of dancing around the edges.

Quote :

"how was my response to your post any more ludicrous than your post itself? i claimed people either got it or didnt...you said its essentially the same on the other side of the aisle"

You make a blanket statement about how liberals don't get it, as if it is supposed to be the end all of the argument. I point out that liberals say the same thing about conservatives. Meaning the statement is just pure bullshit. You come back with some comment about people's intelligence. Do you get it now?

[Edited on June 10, 2008 at 12:31 PM. Reason : .]

6/10/2008 12:29:44 PM

(regarding the first part of ^that post) and once again, you do the same petty shit that you blast others for doing, all the while acting like you're above those tactics

(regarding teh 2nd part) no i dont get it...the speech at hand makes a few statements...one being that people cannot understand things until they actually get out and support themselves, pay taxes, etc for years...a mentality that a student who hasnt worked full time is flat out incapable of understanding for lack of experience...yet somehow people want to think their opinion is just as valid, regardless of the glaring prereq that they fail to meet according to Boortz

so let me get this straight...since i choose not to vote for the lesser of two evils, people (like you nutsmackr!) have told me my opinion is worthless...regardless of the fact that i follow politics...but if someone simply doesnt understand what its like to spend a decent chunk of their life working like a normal person, all their opinions are still just as valid as anyone elses? smells like horseshit to me

6/10/2008 12:31:36 PM

Quote :

"I shudder to think what your arguing prowess would be if you could do more than find one word you disagree with and harp on it--formulating real arguments on the real breadth of the argument instead of dancing around the edges."

Was this directed at me? And if it was, could you please elaborate?

6/10/2008 12:34:16 PM

Quote :

"Was this directed at me? And if it was, could you please elaborate?"

Because you have taken the word democracy and definied it in the narrow concepts of American style or western style democracy.

Quote :

"glaring prereq that they fail to meet according to Boortz"

And why is the pre-requisite created by Boortz the most important factor. You have yet to explain why this ten years in the supposed "real world" means anythign.

[Edited on June 10, 2008 at 12:38 PM. Reason : .]

6/10/2008 12:37:15 PM

Boortz can talk the talk at times.

However, he's still an imperialist, war-mongering neocon psychopath.

And his fair tax is dumb.

6/10/2008 12:39:32 PM

Quote :

"You have yet to explain why this ten years in the supposed "real world" means anythign."

sounds like you think working full time in the real world is worthless, insignificant, meaningless? is that correct? i dont want to put words in your mouth so im asking...do you think someone can understand all the things entailed by working full time like the majority of the country does, without they themselves actually doing it?

6/10/2008 12:41:31 PM

Quote :

"Because you have taken the word democracy and definied it in the narrow concepts of American style or western style democracy."

As opposed to?

Yes, I realize not everyone's democracy is going to be exactly like ours, but there are still things that make a society inherently democratic and I don't see those things in practice in Iran.

democracy according to Webster:

Quote :

" de·moc·ra·cy Pronunciation: \di-'mä-kr?-se\ Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural de·moc·ra·cies Etymology: Middle French democratie, from Late Latin democratia, from Greek demokratia, from demos + -kratia -cracy Date: 1576 1: government by the people; especially : rule of the majority b: a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections 2: a political unit that has a democratic government 3 capitalized : the principles and policies of the Democratic party in the United States <from emancipation Republicanism to New Deal Democracy— C. M. Roberts> 4: the common people especially when constituting the source of political authority 5: the absence of hereditary or arbitrary class distinctions or privileges "

Please tell me, which one of these definitions of democracy would you say Iran subscribes to? I would think # 4 would be the closest you can get, but given the large contigent of Iranians who wish to follow more Western trends (whether they be in government, freedoms, or fashion), and who are browbeat into submission by the equivalent of a religious police force, even that is a stretch, as it doesn't seem like the religious powers that be derive much authority from this significant portion of the population.





[Edited on June 10, 2008 at 12:48 PM. Reason : clarification]

6/10/2008 12:46:08 PM

Just had to point out:

Quote :

"From the Liberals you will hear references to groups -- The Blacks, the Poor, The Rich, The Disadvantaged, The Less Fortunate. From the Right you will hear references to individuals."

Is humorous considering all of his references to the "Left" and "Liberals" and their unitary views.

6/10/2008 12:51:39 PM

context.

6/10/2008 12:53:12 PM

Democracy does not always equal civil liberties. Iran is not an extremely open democracy, however, it is still a democracy.

For one thing, it equals about 3 of those definitions, 2, 4, and 5.

[Edited on June 10, 2008 at 12:54 PM. Reason : .]

6/10/2008 12:53:46 PM

Democracy = voice of the people

lol @ Iran being defined as a democracy

if anything it's a tightly controlled republic. looks like you need a few more years of school son.

6/10/2008 1:01:14 PM

Quote :

"if anything it's a tightly controlled republic"

You just made my point for me.

6/10/2008 1:02:53 PM

Quote :

"lol @ Iran being defined as a democracy"

6/10/2008 1:03:52 PM

this is off-topic, but it reminded me of the diane rehm show today, there was an author on there talking about how we often confuse the "word of the people" as some infallible concept in this country. and that our country is woefully ill-informed about even the most basic current events. this wasn't his entire point, but he used an example of asking his graduate level journalism class who the speaker of the house was (who had just been chosen a few weeks before at the time) and no one knew. so basically he was saying how this country values the voice of the people, but that voice is comprised of very uninformed people for the most part.

he was advocating for requiring current events quizzes or something in high school.

6/10/2008 1:05:00 PM

^^^

2 is pretty weak considering they use the adjective democratic to define Democracy.

Like I already said, someone could make a case for 4, albeit a weak one.

5 is a joke. There are most definitely class distinctions in Iran. Maybe they aren't "hereditary" or "arbitrary" as the definition states, but they are still there. Anyone not subscribing to the fundamentalist Shia idealogies are going to be treated like 2nd hand citizens at some point in their life, if not on a daily basis.

[Edited on June 10, 2008 at 1:07 PM. Reason : ^^]

6/10/2008 1:06:34 PM

i think you're at the "argue semantics" stage n|_|T5mackwhore. moving on.............

[Edited on June 10, 2008 at 1:08 PM. Reason : .]

6/10/2008 1:07:50 PM

Iran is ruled by the Supreme Leader of Iran, who is appointed by a council, the Council of Experts, who are supposed experts in interpretation of Islamic law

i'm not making this shit up

6/10/2008 1:10:14 PM

Quote :

"5 is a joke. There are most definitely class distinctions in Iran. Maybe they aren't "hereditary" or "arbitrary" as the definition states, but they are still there. Anyone not subscribing to the fundamentalist Shia idealogies are going to be treated like 2nd hand citizens at some point in their life, if not on a daily basis."

And there are class distinctions in the United States of America.

As for your second contention. Iran actually provides greater liberties to ethnic and religious minorities in its country than any other middle eastern state, including Israel.

again, you are confusing civil liberties with democracy.

6/10/2008 1:11:11 PM

^^knut-smh4x0r however would love to reside in this paradise one day later in his life

[Edited on June 10, 2008 at 1:12 PM. Reason : ^^]

6/10/2008 1:12:09 PM

It seemed poorly written to me. No explanation as to why things are true, other than the outrage of the speaker.

6/10/2008 1:13:51 PM

Quote :

"And there are class distinctions in the United States of America. As for your second contention. Iran actually provides greater liberties to ethnic and religious minorities in its country than any other middle eastern state, including Israel. "

I never said there weren't class distinctions in the United States, but it's not nearly as hard to overcome them as it is in Iran. And here you don't have people, with the support of the government, roughing you up because you're wearing tight fitting blue jeans (the same can't be said for women in Iran). This example is trivial sure, but if women in Iran catch flak for what they wear, one can imagine what would happen if they ran for political office, especially if they were opposed to the ayatollah dominated government.

And I didn't bring Israel up, why did you?

And civil liberties may not equal democracy, but without them, one has to question the legitimacy of the "democracy" in the first place. If a person can't choose what to wear or say, do you really think they have a lot of choice in deciding who represents them in the government?

[Edited on June 10, 2008 at 1:21 PM. Reason : ]

6/10/2008 1:20:30 PM

Quote :

"No explanation as to why things are true"

Its something you can't explain sufficiently enough to convince people...they'll have to figure it out on their own...and they will if they go out and work a normal job and pay taxes and balance their finances over a number of years

They will realize what he is saying from heir own first hand experience...experience is the best teacher anyway

6/10/2008 1:22:49 PM

see to me that seems like an argument from someone who is not thinking, but feeling.

6/10/2008 1:23:47 PM

seems like someone who has never worked full time is trolling

6/10/2008 1:25:10 PM

someone who puts forth an idea then basically leaves it irrefutable because the other person is "too young/inexperienced" is just bullshit. and yes, i have worked full-time before.

6/10/2008 1:27:02 PM

full time huh? lemme guess, full time summer job?

i just don't know why you're so arrogant as to believe that you can fully understand something without really experiencing it

6/10/2008 1:28:18 PM

i'm working effectively full-time right now and have been for years. i just don't get paid as such. i work more than 40 hrs/week, i have a boss. i sometimes work weekends. etc. just because it's working at a school it doesn't count though, right?

6/10/2008 1:29:12 PM

you work more than 40 hours a week for your job? why did you feel the need to put "effectively" full time? is part of that 40 hours with coursework?

6/10/2008 1:30:37 PM

Quote :

"This example is trivial sure, but if women in Iran catch flak for what they wear, one can imagine what would happen if they ran for political office, especially if they were opposed to the ayatollah dominated government. "

Considering that women serve in Iran's parliament and local governments, you lose points for not researching properly.

Quote :

"And I didn't bring Israel up, why did you?"

It is a reference point

Quote :

"And civil liberties may not equal democracy, but without them, one has to question the legitimacy of the "democracy" in the first place. If a person can't choose what to wear or say, do you really think they have a lot of choice in deciding who represents them in the government? "

The two are not mutually exclusive. Interracial couples were once outlawed, that does not mean a government did not exist in the United States.

6/10/2008 1:31:05 PM

no.
it's not full-time because i'm technically paid half time.

i mean, my older brother has has been living in the "real world" for a fairly long time now and he's far more liberal than me.

[Edited on June 10, 2008 at 1:32 PM. Reason : .]

6/10/2008 1:31:21 PM

lot of technicalities and stipulations for such a simple question

besides, most people i know either going for their masters or doctorate, or while they were going for their masters or doctorate were happy to admit that they were putting off getting a real job by staying in school longer...most of them also TA'd or taught and did research...but I guess you've got too much pride to admit that

6/10/2008 1:32:07 PM