How could anybody with a brain think that raising taxes on oil companies is going to help gas prices. If you raise my tax rate, I will raise the price of my merchandise so the tax raise doesn't hit me. I'll pass along the hike to consumers.

8/5/2008 1:48:36 PM

I think you answered your own question.

8/5/2008 1:51:12 PM

^^ Taxing windfall profits is different than a sales tax. It doesn't affect the current price too much, but it discourages investment in exploration and development.

Speculators would probably see it as a sign that supplies will continue to lag, and drive the price up some. But if the Dems have their way, speculators will be outlawed so that problem will be solved

[Edited on August 5, 2008 at 1:54 PM. Reason : 2]

8/5/2008 1:54:26 PM

Quote :

"Taxing windfall profits is different than a sales tax. It doesn't affect the current price too much, but it discourages investment in exploration and development."

From what I understand, the oil companies are spending huge amounts of their record profits to buy back shares instead of funding exploration and development. Neither OPEC nor American oil companies have any lasting incentive to expand production and reduce prices. They have the market captured with a relatively inelastic demand. Sure, consumption may be down a couple percent, but that's easily offset by the 40-50% gain in prices over the last two years.

If you ask me, they should set a price floor of $4 a gallon to really spur people to keep conserving and quit this yoyo-ing we have had in the past few decades.

8/5/2008 2:26:02 PM

Quote :

"^^ Taxing windfall profits is different than a sales tax. It doesn't affect the current price too much, but it discourages investment in exploration and development."

^ Was about to point similar out. How much real exploring have they done without the tax? Putting a damper on little exploration still leaves us with little exploration.

Also, wouldn't they do something to keep that money in their own hands rather than giving it to the Fed...such as, I dunno, exploring, or maybe putting more into R&D for alternative energy?

8/5/2008 2:40:03 PM

^^You're a fucking loon. There is no other way to describe your anti-corporate rants and conspiracy theories. Be careful, you are nearing salisburyboy territory every time you talk about big business.

The oil companies are literally BEGGING congress to let them drill offshore, in ANWR, and other places. Every time they are brought in for a congressional inquiry, they implore congressional leaders to remove restrictions on drilling and oil field development. The 5 biggest oil companies are constantly competing for market share and profits, and those profits come from selling more oil than their competitors. High prices lead to market shifts, and the CEO's know that. Eventually we will move on to plug-ins, and the higher oil prices are, the sooner that shift occurs.

They have a HUGE incentive to produce more oil, in fact their industry depends on it. Taking away the profit motive would kill a lot of the investment into new fields and technologies.


[Edited on August 5, 2008 at 2:47 PM. Reason : 2]

8/5/2008 2:41:29 PM

Quote :

"Also, wouldn't they do something to keep that money in their own hands rather than giving it to the Fed...such as, I dunno, exploring, or maybe putting more into R&D for alternative energy? "

Well, for one thing, they are oil companies. they produce petroleum products. That's what they are good at. They've made the determination that their money is best spent on producing more oil. And in case you haven't noticed, they are practically begging congress to let them drill in several areas.

As for the smaller plots and fields they are sitting on, it's tough to drill when everytime you start a project the Sierra Club is up your ass with lawsuits.

8/5/2008 2:46:00 PM

I find it hard to believe that big oil money can't bring more lobbying power than the Sierra Club.

8/5/2008 2:49:04 PM

Lobbying power is irrelevant in the judicial realm

Obstructionary lawsuits are environmentalists' most powerful and effective weapon.

[Edited on August 5, 2008 at 2:50 PM. Reason : 2]

8/5/2008 2:49:35 PM

Prawn, I agree. You are missing thier key word.. exploring. They dont want any actual drilling, just exploring. hahah

Yes, lets set a price FLOOR of 4 bucks. That will help out our economy and the poor. Im all for alternative energy, but im for a free market. Having our govt trying to help usually causes more problems that a market would have solved on its own.

Seriouslly scuba, why stop at 4? Lets go for 10, imagine all that conservation that would FORCE. Artificial markets are usually a good thing right?

8/5/2008 2:50:40 PM

Quote :

"Lobbying power is irrelevant in the judicial realm Obstructionary lawsuits are environmentalists' most powerful and effective weapon."

Yeah, so all that profit can't buy good lawyers either? Or, are the lawyers the ones that would be doing the drilling? I don't get it. Semi companies do business all day long while patent fights drag through the courts for years.

Quote :

"Prawn, I agree. You are missing thier key word.. exploring. They dont want any actual drilling, just exploring. hahah"

Would you get the fuck out of here with your neocon paranoia? I don't know if I speak for them, but I think most of the left leaning folks in here probably get sick of your stupid classifications of their postions and viewpoints.

[Edited on August 5, 2008 at 2:53 PM. Reason : a]

8/5/2008 2:52:44 PM

There is no such thing as a true free market for oil, people like making short sighted arguments like "If we drill we won't have to conserve," and checking your tire pressure is only one step in giant list of things people could do to conserve on energy rather than a panacea

So basically leaving it up to the oil companies will never work hope this helps

8/5/2008 2:59:46 PM

Quote :

"Yeah, so all that profit can't buy good lawyers either? Or, are the lawyers the ones that would be doing the drilling? I don't get it. Semi companies do business all day long while patent fights drag through the courts for years."

Property and environmental law is quite a bit different from intellectual property law. You just cannot start a drilling project without approval from any number of agencies, all of which can get mired for years in lawsuits.

You'd be surprised. The amount of regulation is absurdulous. Why do you think these companies are lobbying so hard to drill offshore and in the Arctic circle? To get the hell away from the NIMBYs.

8/5/2008 3:01:34 PM

Quote :

"people like making short sighted arguments like "If we drill we won't have to conserve," "

What people?

Quote :

"and checking your tire pressure is only one step in giant list of things people could do to conserve on energy rather than a panacea"

Drilling more is only one step in a giant list of things we could do to lower the price of gasoline. It's a demand AND supply issue. Ignoring either side of the equation is stupid.

[Edited on August 5, 2008 at 3:05 PM. Reason : sorry for the double-post]

8/5/2008 3:03:25 PM

Conservative talking heads mostly

Just like how people are mocking Obama for suggesting that they practice proper car maintenance to reduce consumption instead of celebrating him for suggesting that people rely on themselves to do something instead of crying for BIG GOVERNMENT to drill

8/5/2008 3:10:20 PM

action i dont hear many people calling for us to drill and not conserve. Or for us to drill and not push alternative energy either.

The fact is we NEED oil in this country. If we can do something to produce more oil in this country then we should be doing this WHILE developing alternatives. If there was an alternative that was viable it would be more widely used. Do you agree?

We need to reduce the paperwork and start building more nuclear plants, drill wherever we can, while developing wind and solar. But to totally say we dont need to drill is ridiculous. Raising my tire pressure wont make my car run on wind, we need oil.

I get your point about being paranoid that if gas prices fall we wont develop these alternatives, and its a good point. Hopefully we can shed our ADD culture and hold our politicians accountable that we need to get off foreign oil FIRST, then move to get off oil all together.

8/5/2008 3:13:16 PM

People can be stupid, and the fact that tire pressure has a significant impact on fuel efficiency is lost on a lot of the stupid ones.

John McCain suggested we pay out a $300 million prize for the next major innovation in battery technology that allows for mainstream electric car usage. He got mocked for that idea by none other than Nancy Pelosi.

8/5/2008 3:15:11 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzZNP4tTfV0

Here it is actionpants.

You really think we can save as much oil by putting air in our tires than drilling? He is basically saying we dont need to drill if everyone just put air in their tires and got thier cars tuned up. This 2008, most cars dont need "tuned up" until 100k miles. Its nonsense.

The thing that makes this ridiculous is not that he suggests ways to conserve, which is fine. But somehow that putting air in your tires will save as much oil and drilling would create.

[Edited on August 5, 2008 at 3:19 PM. Reason : .]

8/5/2008 3:18:09 PM

The figures I've seen put it at about 800,000 barrels per day for maintenance versus about 1.2 million for drilling off of Florida. Not quite as good but pretty close and it could be done today instead of 10 years down the line.

8/5/2008 3:37:17 PM

haha, I think you would have to assume a helluva lot to conserve 800,000 barrels a day.. a DAY.

Seriously, id like to read where you go that from please.

8/5/2008 3:41:42 PM

Quote :

"This 2008, most cars dont need "tuned up" until 100k miles. Its nonsense."

I'd like to see where an eyedr got this from. You're suddenly a mechanic too?

8/5/2008 3:50:32 PM

Well this was on CNN's front page last night: http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1829354,00.html

And http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/07/from-the-fact-1.html

Quote :

""So the production offset is more likely to approach 800 thousand barrels per day – a tidy sum and a worthwhile target for savings, but not equal to OCS output," he rules."

8/5/2008 3:50:55 PM

ActionPants, you've been railing against the myopic and one-sided viewpoint that drilling is the only answer to the current energy crisis while ignoring conservation and alternative energy.

Why don't you think it's equally asinine to only focus on conservation, and oppose new domestic drilling, as you've been doing?

To quote your own link:

Quote :

""Finally, without knowing what production volumes could be expected from lifting the ban on OCS drilling moratoria, it’s impossible to assert that taking these fuel savings actions would exceed future offshore oil volumes, and in fact, one might argue that the combination of achieving these savings AND developing new supply would doubly enhance US energy security.""

8/5/2008 4:07:08 PM

Thanks for the links Actionpants.

"It means that if every American was running around with significantly underinflated tires and improperly tuned cars, then, yes, Sen. Obama is right, the savings from inflating the tires and tuning the cars could arguably match or exceed current output from the OCS.

However, since estimates of significant tire underinflation affect only about a quarter of the cars on road -- as we noted above with the NHTSA statistics -- and it’s highly unlikely that 100% of the cars are in need of tune- ups at any given time, the maximum savings amount is probably closer to 10%, Verrastro says."


Like I said earlier, the joke isnt that we should conserve or or put air in our tires, its that doing so would make us not need to expand our oil production.

Trole, im not a mechanic. Im just not a moron. Here is a little history lession

"With today's autos, virtually everything from idle speed to ignition timing is computer controlled. Since there's nothing left to "tune" in the traditional sense, all that's required is to replace the spark plugs, filters and other wear items periodically to keep the engine. Many new cars and trucks don't even need to go in for a tune-up for 100,000 miles."

http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/auto/car-guide-2005/better1.asp

8/5/2008 4:15:49 PM

^^I've already expressed my concern about the post-drilling consumption going up more than the supply can handle. If that doesn't happen then I guess it can't hurt as long as there are no spills, but I still don't think it will solve anything and those are still some pretty big ifs for me.

8/5/2008 4:40:44 PM

Domestic production helps solve our energy security and dependence issues. It also provides jobs to Americans, jobs that are just as good as those created in this "green economy" nonsense that Pelosi keeps chirping about. And every dollar spent on domestic oil provides revenue to the government and diverts money away from the sheiks and dictators in OPEC, Russia and Venezuela.

8/5/2008 4:49:34 PM

Correct me if i'm wrong, but aren't we already refining at (or very near) 100% capacity? What good will more oil do if we can't refine it any faster?

also, won't any extra oil we produce go on the world market instead of straight into our economy?

Not that i'm against more drilling, I just think that the argument (like many political arguments around this time) is being vastly oversimplified.

8/5/2008 4:54:23 PM

Well as far as I'm concerned we need a New Deal-level effort where we take basically every person possible and have them working on putting up solar panels and windmills and the electric grid infrastructure to support them but that will probably never happen in my lifetime so I don't know who cares just do whatever

8/5/2008 4:54:58 PM

^^we need more refineries...but building new refineries is looked down on similar to off shore drilling (even though China is already drilling on our shelf)

8/5/2008 4:58:49 PM

Quote :

"Correct me if i'm wrong, but aren't we already refining at (or very near) 100% capacity?"

Naah, I don't believe that refineries are the bottleneck in production that they were back in 2005.

8/5/2008 5:04:33 PM

^^No they aren't (China I mean) http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/are_the_chinese_drilling_off_the_coast.html

[Edited on August 5, 2008 at 5:05 PM. Reason : .]

8/5/2008 5:05:29 PM

pwnt

in that case then, i note this post

Quote :

"Prawn, I agree. You are missing thier key word.. exploring. They dont want any actual drilling, just exploring. hahah"

looks like eyedrb is onto something since the factcheck link says

Quote :

"Cuba has leased exploration blocks to foreign companies for areas as close as 60 miles off Florida's southern coast. A 2006 New York Times article said China was one of the countries that had negotiated an offshore lease. But experts quoted recently by The Associated Press say none of the companies involved are Chinese and all are only allowed to explore for now, not drill in the region."

i still say we need more refineries

[Edited on August 5, 2008 at 5:10 PM. Reason : refineries]

8/5/2008 5:09:34 PM

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0808/Obama_responds_Its_like_these_guys_take_pride_in_being_ignorant.html oh dear

Also yes more refineries would be a good idea. How much would it help to be able to refine all that oil we get from Alaska and send to Japan right now?

[Edited on August 5, 2008 at 5:11 PM. Reason : .]

8/5/2008 5:10:59 PM

Not sure what your point is about Japan, but the vast majority of the oil we produce in Alaska goes straight into the US.

It's not 2005 anymore. Refineries are not the bottleneck.

Quote :

"US refineries ran at 87.2% of capacity in the week ended July 25, down 6.5 percentage points from a year earlier, as high prices of crude oil and declining gasoline demand cut refining margins."

[Edited on August 5, 2008 at 5:17 PM. Reason : 2]

8/5/2008 5:15:31 PM

Really? I thought it was too thick for our refineries to be able to process it so we were shipping it out to Japan because they could.

Okay well snopes says that's not true so nevermind!

8/5/2008 5:21:07 PM

Yeah nutsmackr tried selling that bullshit in here a few months ago and I had to call him out on it. Where do people get that idea? There is a lot of misinformation floating around about oil and gasoline.

8/5/2008 5:23:39 PM

you know what, in addition to properly inflated tires, would help conserve oil? not using your air conditioning...its only about 95 degrees out right now

8/5/2008 5:25:53 PM

That would probably conserve more coal than oil. But then again, we'll never run out of coal. We'll just stop using it at some point.

8/5/2008 5:31:04 PM

I had a roommate last year who, when it was 95 degrees out, would turn the AC down to 65 and sit around the apartment wrapped up in a blanket. Maybe he could have just turned it to 75 and not used the blanket? But who is big government to suggest that we not do excessively wasteful things like that.

8/5/2008 5:32:35 PM

I <3 Jimmy Carter.

but i do think Obama should accept Nuclear power...I'm not really opposed to that suprisingly.

8/5/2008 5:36:45 PM

Yo what up girl sounds like we have a lot in common how about we make ourselves comfortable and take this to my liberal echo chamber....

8/5/2008 5:38:19 PM

ah, except i'm too much of a tree-hugger to support offshore oil drilling.

8/5/2008 5:46:12 PM

ActionPants punches snow leopards just to make himself feel better. And one time he peed on a manatee.

8/5/2008 5:48:49 PM

Animals are only good for eatin' and wearin' and coverin' in oil

8/5/2008 5:49:58 PM

^^^ welp, at least you let us know that you are an idiot, so we don't have to actually listen to anything you have to say

8/5/2008 5:50:42 PM

ok, so i shoulda just left out the environmental factor and left it at "i don't support offshore oil drilling because it would take YEARS to see any of that oil and we should stop being so dependent on it for fuel"??

8/5/2008 5:53:19 PM

Nuclear power tends to rock, particularly those new miniature reactors like the 4S.

Can't wait for fusion.

8/5/2008 5:55:07 PM

^^ well, at least if you said that, we could laugh at the notion that we shouldn't do anything if won't fix things now. You know, the kind of thing that the libies have been saying for 30 years now, and all... Here's a hint, jessie: if 30 years ago, the libies would have shut the fuck up, then we'd have those offshore facilities here TODAY, and would have had them for 20 years...

8/5/2008 5:58:02 PM

And Hummers would reign supreme, thus solving all of our problems.

8/5/2008 6:00:06 PM

but you can't go back in time. and NOW, it is TOO LATE to begin that project.

I've seen more and more fellow scooters on the roads, more carpooling, more people using public transit, walking, biking, etc. It's great. Obesity will go down. Everything in our lives is based on convenience...it's time we stopped being so goddamn lazy/selfish and started being innovative.

8/5/2008 6:02:53 PM