Quote :

"Why? How come you believe when we walk the same human being out of a board room and into a legislature they suddenly stop being greedy and self-interested?"

The same reason I wouldn't scratch my balls if I was giving a speech to a group of people.

Quote :

"No moron, its about fairness and shared responsiblity. Continuing to take more from a minority to give to the majority is buying votes. "

Progressive taxes are the most fair way.

Quote :

"The top 10% in income, those earning more than $108,904, paid 71%. Anything fair about that?"

Seems to be more or less fair, considering a poor american citizen is more productive and better off that poor citizens of other countries, while our rich are leaders in industries around the world.

Quote :

"Great point loneshark. Moron seems to think that a coorporation trying to compete with better products, better pay, and doing a good job is somehow greedy and bad. While a politician LYING for votes, making promises they KNOW arent viable in the long term simply to get his ass into office is somehow noble? There are alot of crooked companies and alot of crooked politicians. Its just when a coorporation is crooked the people funding them had a choice. "

I didn't say anything you attributed to me in this quote. I think whoever chides you about your liberal boogeyman is right. Why wait for a company like the banks or enron to screw people over before they fall (and someone still makes out like a bandit) when we can easily avoid that by having people check up on them? It's MUCH easier to get rid of a crooked politician than a crooked business, and much easier to control the damage a politician does. Our entire political system was set up from the beginning to fight corruption before it can do any damage. Our economic system should be the same way, with a gov. checking and balancing the power of large companies. Or do you not believe in our system of checks and balances either?

[Edited on July 21, 2008 at 7:48 PM. Reason : ]

7/21/2008 7:38:26 PM

The most efficient and least damaging form of taxation is a citizenship fee, say $10,000 a year for every man and women over the age of 18. Of course, any such form of taxation would not be nearly dynamic enough to raise the revenue modern government is used to.

7/21/2008 7:50:56 PM

people are ultimately going to agree with the plan that best benefits them. what may be the most viable plan for Boone might not be the best plan for eyedrb. Unless you are going to argue with colleagues within your profession or argue with those in your same socio-economic condition (you golf partner at teh country club or your homie at the neighborhood bball court) then it is truely pointless.

7/21/2008 9:32:52 PM

Quote :

" I'm for progressive taxation."

Can you point out in our Constitution where it states that the rich are responsible for fulfilling the wishes of the poor?

Quote :

"Well you seem to forget the burden I took with 8 yrs of school and over 100k of debt to acheive my income level. "

Face it...you only got lucky. Working your ass off all those years instead of screwing around and making bad life decisions...counts for nothing. In the liberal's world, the rich got that way through sheer luck...that's why there's no moral dilemma in stripping their income and giving it to someone who didn't win life's lottery.

Quote :

"...well it is also used to stem demand for some goods and services"

... as well as to reward certain behaviors such as having children out of wed-lock.

7/21/2008 9:40:49 PM

Quote :

"Can you point out in our Constitution where it states that the rich are responsible for fulfilling the wishes of the poor? "

The 16th Amendment to the Constitution

Quote :

"Well you seem to forget the burden I took with 8 yrs of school and over 100k of debt to acheive my income level."

And it was still worth it, no? There are still kids dying to get into medical school so they can end up with 100k in debt and a six figure salary. Clearly even with higher taxes, a six figure income is more than enough incentive within a progressive tax system

If a student loan that's less than your yearly income is breaking your back, you need to budget better.



[Edited on July 21, 2008 at 10:18 PM. Reason : ,]

7/21/2008 9:49:04 PM

Nevermind the AMA cartell that lets medical schools charge so damn much.

7/21/2008 10:51:59 PM

I don't recall the 16th Amendment saying "the rich are slaves to the poor," boonetard. I think it just says "we can take your income now, bitches"

7/21/2008 11:11:54 PM

I don't recall ever having said that, aaronburro (synonymous with mental deficiency, so no pet name required)

The 16th Amendment clearly doesn't say what Earthdogg was stating, but in his mind, having the rich be "responsible for fulfilling the wishes of the poor" is apparently the definition of progressive taxation.

[Edited on July 22, 2008 at 9:46 AM. Reason : .]

7/22/2008 9:43:06 AM

Quote :

"Face it...you only got lucky. Working your ass off all those years instead of screwing around and making bad life decisions...counts for nothing. In the liberal's world, the rich got that way through sheer luck...that's why there's no moral dilemma in stripping their income and giving it to someone who didn't win life's lottery. "

That does seem to be the attitude.

Boone, applications for med school have been down for years. Not only that we are filling our shortage with overseas docs and lowering standards. Ah, the joys of managed care. I cant wait until the govt takes it over completely. Honestly, why would you continue to work harder than 99% of people and then have to pay such a higher burden when you are done? Is there any wonder why people are going into law instead. Less work, less liablity, less school, and the govt doesnt set your fees. Can you imagine if your doc charged you by the hour or for every paperclip used on your file, etc? Would be a sweet job.

7/22/2008 10:10:45 AM

Capitalism can't work without progressive taxation. Free markets have built in snowball effects that put all the wealth into the hands of a few and force the rich richer and exploit the poor masses more and more. Welfare, labor laws, healthcare and education funded by progressive taxation give somewhat of, but not a complete a balance to this fiasco. That is where the American dream comes from but it still isn't completely effective because the rich find loopholes to avoid these taxes and government spending often misses a large portion of the poor. Thats where we are today and its past time to find ways redistribute wealth onto more of a hopeful scale. The people being taxed have a responsibility to give back as they wouldn't be rich without the people and its not like the tax is going to break them its just that we have too many greedy, selfish people in this world.

Quote :

"people are ultimately going to agree with the plan that best benefits them."

This statement only goes for blind Republicans.

Quote :

""Face it...you only got lucky. Working your ass off all those years instead of screwing around and making bad life decisions...counts for nothing. In the liberal's world, the rich got that way through sheer luck...that's why there's no moral dilemma in stripping their income and giving it to someone who didn't win life's lottery. ""

You didn't only get lucky but 9 times out of 10 you were lucky enough to be born in a decent area with decent parents and a decent school which is some things many Americans never have access to.

7/22/2008 10:30:55 AM

We just moved beyond a discussion of taxation and into "why life as eyedrb is sooooooo terrible."

7/22/2008 10:31:27 AM

The problem is that we have too few tax brackets than we should have. Add in more tax brackets at the higher income levels and much of the problem disappears.

7/22/2008 10:34:48 AM

The 16th Amendment says that everyone making over $50,000 a year has to buy an iPhone for a welfare queen confirm/deny

7/22/2008 10:39:38 AM

Quote :

"having the rich be "responsible for fulfilling the wishes of the poor" is apparently the definition of progressive taxation."

OK..and what is your moral justification for progressive taxation? How is it right to take money from people simply because they have it to take?

Quote :

"9 times out of 10 you were lucky enough to be born in a decent area with decent parents and a decent school "

Amazing.
You discount the people who came up from nothing to make something of themselves through hard work. It's all luck.
The liberal mindset holds this incredible belief that successful people were basically lucky and therefore don't really deserve the money they earned.

7/22/2008 10:44:21 AM

Quote :

"Amazing. You discount the people who came up from nothing to make something of themselves through hard work."

Those people are statistical anomalies. You don't set public policy based upon the anomalies.

7/22/2008 10:46:43 AM

wethebest, you are in control of your life. I wont go into my childhood, but lucky wouldnt be a trait used to describe it.

That seems to be the attitude. I think most republicans feel that they control thier lives and see the govt and taxation as limiting thier prosperity. Dems seem to feel that they have NO control over thier lives and that govt is the only way to better thiers.

nuts, the problem is that everyone isnt treated the same. Im all for a progressive tax as long as we have a progressive voting system. So you get 1 vote for every grand you pay in? How many of you would be for that? LOL, I didnt think so.

Boone do you ever address a topic? Or are you so pissed that their just wasnt a a great demand for history majors when you graduated so you have to insult others?

^nuts. Bullshit. Read the article. Most of the rich are NEW. Meaning they EARNED thier money not given to them.

[Edited on July 22, 2008 at 10:47 AM. Reason : .]

7/22/2008 10:46:46 AM

Quote :

"nuts, the problem is that everyone isnt treated the same. Im all for a progressive tax as long as we have a progressive voting system. So you get 1 vote for every grand you pay in? How many of you would be for that? LOL, I didnt think so."

a weighted vote system violates the core precepts of this country. You also fail to understand that not everyone is monetarily equal either.

Quote :

"Most of the rich are NEW. Meaning they EARNED thier money not given to them."

The nuevo riche did not rise from the slums. They came out of middle-class and upper middle class.

Quote :

"Or are you so pissed that their just wasnt a a great demand for history majors when you graduated so you have to insult others? "

your medical practice must be barely holding on; since you have so much time to post on the internet. Are you mad that no one wants to be your patient?

[Edited on July 22, 2008 at 10:50 AM. Reason : .]

7/22/2008 10:48:27 AM

Quote :

"OK..and what is your moral justification for progressive taxation? How is it right to take money from people simply because they have it to take?"

DrSteveChaos put my thoughts into economese for me yesterday: decreased marginal utility of increased wealth. If we want to be fair about spreading the burden of gov't, it's only right to tax the rich at a higher percentage.

Quote :

"Boone do you ever address a topic?"

I was calling you out for failing to address the topic. We're talking about taxes, you're throwing a pity party for yourself.

Quote :

"Or are you so pissed that their just wasnt a a great demand for history majors when you graduated so you have to insult others"

Apparently I should thank my lucky stars that I don't make six figures. According to you, progressive taxation has removed any incentive to be rich.

7/22/2008 10:58:40 AM

Quote :

"Capitalism can't work without progressive taxation. Free markets have built in snowball effects that put all the wealth into the hands of a few and force the rich richer and exploit the poor masses more and more."

Lousy snowball effect given that most wealthy families lose their wealth within 3 generations.

Quote :

"The nuevo riche did not rise from the slums. They came out of middle-class and upper middle class. "

And the middle class came from where?

7/22/2008 11:00:55 AM

Quote :

"a weighted vote system violates the core precepts of this country"

You dont know your history. Maybe Boone can fill you in.

Quote :

"They came out of middle-class and upper middle class. "

Where did you get that from? Make it up?

Boone, why should I take home less of a percentage of my pay than you do?

7/22/2008 11:04:04 AM

I just explained that. Right up there /\

7/22/2008 11:05:40 AM

So you are saying that I should be taxed more because I dont benefit enough as you would from the money I bring home? That is really your arguement?

7/22/2008 11:07:39 AM

Why is an equal burden of the government fair? Wouldn't it be more fair to tax people based on the amount of government services they use?

7/22/2008 11:10:10 AM

Quote :

"So you are saying that I should be taxed more because I dont benefit enough as you would from the money I bring home?"

More or less. X amount needs to be taxed. Let's spread it around in such a way that hurts people the least.

Quote :

"Wouldn't it be more fair to tax people based on the amount of government services they use?"

So you're arguing that we should have a regressive tax? Why even tax, then? We can just charge poor people $500 for their $500 worth of food stamps.

Hahah, but after typing that, I just realized that 50% of the people in this thread just became giddy over the thought of that.

7/22/2008 11:15:47 AM

^no, just the same set of rules for all. Nothing more or less.

7/22/2008 11:17:00 AM

I completely agree with you that it should be fair.

Which is why I support progressive taxation.

Quote :

"So you are saying that I should be taxed more because I dont benefit enough as you would from the money I bring home?"

And I just caught that. Would you please drop the disdain you have for all of us commoners? I don't receive any free rides off of your money.

[Edited on July 22, 2008 at 11:21 AM. Reason : .]

7/22/2008 11:18:06 AM

If you go from the bottom to the top power to you, you are awesome but guess what? You are nowhere near normal. You are a beast. Congrats but for the normal people it is not a level playing field. For most people where you are born determines your abilities. The same kid that came up with nothing that is working at mcdonalds or a high school dropout would easily have been at a community college or regular college if he came up middle class. Its not a level playing field at all and most poor people are born into a huge disadvantage on the scale of health, nutrition, leadership, education and stress. These factors play a huge role in the likelihood one is to have a successful life and the situation feeds itself in capitalism which is what most people complaining about progressive tax have no understanding of.

Quote :

"That seems to be the attitude. I think most republicans feel that they control thier lives and see the govt and taxation as limiting their prosperity. Dems seem to feel that they have NO control over thier lives and that govt is the only way to better theirs. "

Many people are indeed born into conditions where it is extremely hard to have control over their lives.

Without the poor everything would fail. Rich people should be HAPPY to give back. Its not like all their money is going away, Progressive tax is not changing the quality of life of any of the top 10% I assure you that. Most rich cooperations like WALMART have gained so much revenue off exploiting the poor by selling them items they don't need and paying them low wages but they continue to not know any better because the feeding loop system.

schools are awful in poor area->people grow up uneducated->people become unhealthy due to lack of healthcare->have kids in unhealthy poor conditions->kids grow up in poor housing unhealthy conditions without smart parents->kids go to poor schools->shortage of money leads to stress->stress leads to unhealthy eating habits and poor spending habits->further decreases health and wealth->unhealthy conditions and stressful life makes it hard to do well in a school that is already awful with awful teachers anyway->continue over and over again.

7/22/2008 11:19:00 AM

Quote :

"for the normal people it is not a level playing field. For most people where you are born determines your abilities."

I disagree with that. Upward mobility is excellent in the US. I don't support progressive taxation for class reasons.

Quote :

"Without the poor everything would fail. Rich people should be HAPPY to give back."

Very true. In regards to 1337 b4k4 comment, I think that if we truly taxed based on the amount of gov't services used, then the rich would still be paying much more. The gov't subsidizes the ultra-rich's labor force.

Quote :

"schools are awful in poor area->people grow up uneducated->"

Not really true. A kid in Ghettotown, Miss. has a better chance of being taught by a Harvard grad than a kid in Cary, NC.

Not to mention that school systems create huge incentives to teach in failing schools. The first school I taught at was as ghetto as ghetto gets in NC, and Cumberland County was offering National Board Certified teachers an extra $10k a year just to move to my school from within the system. If poor kids receive bad educations, they're the only ones to blame.

7/22/2008 11:30:06 AM

boone, no disdain, im just making it personal. I would like for you to explain to me why YOU feel I should take home less of what I make than you.

Quote :

"Progressive tax is not changing the quality of life of any of the top 10% I assure you that. "

I would disagree with this. Considering Im in the top 10%.

Its also scary the attitude that some of you show that you can determine how much of someone elses own money they need/deserve.

There is a reason for your cycle. And the govt, taxes, etc have little to do with it. Its all about bad decisions and lack of responsibility.

7/22/2008 11:30:35 AM

Quote :

"If poor kids receive bad educations, they're the only ones to blame. "

Holly shit boone, we agree on something.

7/22/2008 11:33:00 AM

Quote :

"So you're arguing that we should have a regressive tax? Why even tax, then? We can just charge poor people $500 for their $500 worth of food stamps. "

You're the one talking about being "fair". It would seem that "fair" would be paying your share of what you're using wouldn't it? No need for it to be one to one, but certainly it would seem that if you're consuming more government services than your neighbor, you should pay more for that.

Quote :

"Which is why I support progressive taxation."

Why is progressive fair?

Quote :

"The same kid that came up with nothing that is working at mcdonalds or a high school dropout would easily have been at a community college or regular college if he came up middle class."

The choice to drop out of high school is yours and yours alone. The choice to not continue your education later is yours and yours alone. Taxing the rich will do nothing to stop people who are determined to ruin their lives from ruining it.

Quote :

"Many people are indeed born into conditions where it is extremely hard to have control over their lives."

Extremely hard doesn't mean impossible. But yes, succeeding in life is tough. It wasn't that long ago that you needed to work from sun up to sun down just to feed yourself, let alone buy a car and a house and a TV.

Quote :

"Most rich cooperations like WALMART have gained so much revenue off exploiting the poor by selling them items they don't need and paying them low wages but they continue to not know any better because the feeding loop system."

Please. If WALMART was so terrible, people wouldn't shop there, but they do, because walmart provides goods and provides them cheaper than many competitors. It's nothing to do with stupidity or lack of knowledge and everything to do with making one's money go further. It's not like there aren't plenty of people screaming the evils of walmart.

Quote :

"schools are awful in poor area->people grow up uneducated->people become unhealthy due to lack of healthcare->have kids in unhealthy poor conditions->kids grow up in poor housing unhealthy conditions without smart parents->kids go to poor schools->shortage of money leads to stress->stress leads to unhealthy eating habits and poor spending habits->further decreases health and wealth->unhealthy conditions and stressful life makes it hard to do well in a school that is already awful with awful teachers anyway->continue over and over again."

The two bold spots are both places where you have 100% control over that aspect of your life and failure to control that is the reason people stay in poverty. Succeeding in life is easy, spend less than you earn, everything else falls into place. But having children you can't support, buying food that's overly expensive and makes you sick, and spending your money on excess and things you don't need are all choices you make and they're all choices to drop your standard of living.

Quote :

"Very true. In regards to 1337 b4k4 comment, I think that if we truly taxed based on the amount of gov't services used, then the rich would still be paying much more. The gov't subsidizes the ultra-rich's labor force."

Stop subsidizing them and watch the employers change their wages. Why do you think McDonalds starts their employees above minimum wage? Because you need to have living workers that show up to work voluntarily to succeed.

[Edited on July 22, 2008 at 11:40 AM. Reason : gsdf]

7/22/2008 11:36:49 AM

Quote :

"Those people are statistical anomalies. You don't set public policy based upon the anomalies."

They're statistical anomalies, because the welfare system we have today ensures that they have no incentive to pull themselves up.

100 years ago it was work or starve.

People opted to work.

Those who didn't... well they probably didn't last too long.

7/22/2008 11:44:00 AM

Quote :

"Stop subsidizing them and watch the employers change their wages. Why do you think McDonalds starts their employees above minimum wage? Because you need to have living workers that show up to work voluntarily to succeed."

I agree, actually. In fact, if we were to stop all services (roads, education, what-have-you), the rich would have by far the most incentive to pick up the tab. The government makes sure that this is done in an equitable fashion.


[Edited on July 22, 2008 at 11:50 AM. Reason : .]

7/22/2008 11:46:43 AM

We should rearrange the stars on the flag to spell out "FUCK YOU I GOT MINE"

7/22/2008 11:49:47 AM

actionpants, that is exactly what is happening anyway. Nothing makes one as selfish as feeling you are entitled to others belongings. People dont care about the long term fisability of these entitlment programs as long as "i get mine".


Boone, if we took away the programs(which im not advocating) then a sense of community would be restored and people would still get help through charities and donations. The difference would be it would be the people's choice. We are a generous nation with record giving levels every year. THere is no doubt in my mind that charities would do a much better job of servicing these people and with a greater sense of community for all.

7/22/2008 12:02:43 PM

lol goddamn

Yeah if there's one thing I trust the average American to do it's not be a greedy piece of shit

oh wait

7/22/2008 12:20:26 PM

well its fine if you are greedy with what you earn. Its a different situation when you are greedy with what someone else has or works for. imo

7/22/2008 12:42:20 PM

There's a big difference between greedy and wanting basic human necessities

imo

7/22/2008 12:49:02 PM

I fucking hate whiny liberals who cry that leroy dropped out of high school and went into a life of crime b.c he was forced to by the societal pressures and lacked any support due to his growing up in the lower class boo Fucking hoo

This excuse making mindset is what allows certain elements of our society to defend the positive feedback loop that continues to make them and their children remain in the lower class. In reality though has someone said above it is an individual choice to drop out of h.s, to get pregnant at 15, or get arrested for jacking car stereos. For those that do attempt to make something better for themselves society bends over back for those from lower economic conditions. If I were latino and my parents were blueberry pickers most likely w/ my performance in high school i would be on a full ride at NCSU.

Quote :

"a weighted vote system violates the core precepts of this country"

I actually do support some sort of educational requirement to vote. I think a lot of people are to stupid to fully understand the issues and how gov't works. They will just vote for whoever has the prettiest advertisements, the party there parents grew up with, or which guy sounds the most charismatic on debates. Without however understanding what they are voting for. If hitler reincarnate came back with a different name he could probably pull a bunch of votes to win a public office.

7/22/2008 12:51:57 PM

^There's no guarantee that you would have had the same opportunities to do well in school if you were picking blueberries instead of doing homework and falling asleep in class due to your blueberry picking


Also I thought Hitler was already reincarnated as a secret muslim???

7/22/2008 1:03:17 PM

Quote :

"it is an individual choice to drop out of h.s, to get pregnant at 15, or get arrested for jacking car stereos"

stress and lack of leadership helps lead to this. Everyone doesn't always make the best choices anyway. Many of us have had the benefit of parents teaching us since we were born and guiding us away from the wrong paths. This parental guidance is priceless. Sure it doesn't make it impossible but it sure as hell hurts your chances and normal people aren't going to rise in class anyway. Or else everyone in the middle class would be rich by now.

Quote :

"We are a generous nation with record giving levels every year. THere is no doubt in my mind that charities would do a much better job of servicing these people"

If we are so generous and willing to give more then whats the problem with just giving more out of the current system? As long as you're not a selfish person that otherwise wouldn't give anything, nothings changed.

Quote :

"The two bold spots are both places where you have 100% control over that aspect of your life and failure to control that is the reason people stay in poverty. Succeeding in life is easy, spend less than you earn, everything else falls into place. But having children you can't support, buying food that's overly expensive and makes you sick, and spending your money on excess and things you don't need are all choices you make and they're all choices to drop your standard of living."

Easier said than done. Most of these people don't know and their parents don't know to teach them. You might not want to admit it, but most of our mindsets come from being raised by good parents. Well many of these parents and grandparents and so on have been oppressed into their current state by society and capitalism.

I hate to keep reapeating but I can't drill this enough capitalism gives money to the rich and exploits the poor
Once you have money in America, you don't have to work to get more. The best ways to make money are simply having money. Most rich people don't work at all while all the hardest working people are less well off.

Quote :

"Please. If WALMART was so terrible, people wouldn't shop there, but they do, because walmart provides goods and provides them cheaper than many competitors. It's nothing to do with stupidity or lack of knowledge and everything to do with making one's money go further. It's not like there aren't plenty of people screaming the evils of walmart."

WALMART provides cheap goods by paying their workers next to nothing. Then they use mind control in their store that people don't even realize they are being victimized by. These people go into walmart for a distinct item and whatdya know. They walk past stereos, tvs, toys and everything all strategically placed (people have careers in researching where to put things) and it forces them to overspend meanwhile they force all local businesses out creating further poverty.

Quote :

" The choice to drop out of high school is yours and yours alone. The choice to not continue your education later is yours and yours alone. Taxing the rich will do nothing to stop people who are determined to ruin their lives from ruining it."

We're not talking about the rare few that are determined to ruin their lives or the rare few that are special but we are talking about normal people. Middle class kids make some of the same mistakes that poor kids make and the outcomes are completely different. Some guys from my school went on a mass burglary of homes and got caught but ended up going to college, graduating and being successful. If they were poor they likely would be in prison because their parents wouldn't have had the smarts or funds to get them out of it.

Quote :

""If poor kids receive bad educations, they're the only ones to blame."

Yes shame on little joey for being born in a weak school zone. He should have known better than to enroll in his district school and even then, he had to know it was bad and should have found a way to go to a better school by at least 1st or 2nd grade like all us rich people did when we were working ourselves towards the top as toddlers!

Quote :

"Not really true. A kid in Ghettotown, Miss. has a better chance of being taught by a Harvard grad than a kid in Cary, NC. Not to mention that school systems create huge incentives to teach in failing schools. The first school I taught at was as ghetto as ghetto gets in NC, and Cumberland County was offering National Board Certified teachers an extra $10k a year just to move to my school from within the system. If poor kids receive bad educations, they're the only ones to blame."

Lol you cannot be serious? what fairytale land are you living in? The fact that they are giving teachers bonuses to teach in certain places is PROOF that there is a major problem. Also, middle of nowhere nc is nothing. Go to an inner city area. Most school districts are designed in a way to keep the poor poor and not give them money for education. Come to Miami. Property taxes fund schools but the city/county is split up into 150 small cities. you know why? So that the rich neighborhoods taxes go to their schools and then when you get to the poor cities like Overtown and Carol City it is all poor people property taxes funding their schools so they get nothing. Schools in Coral Gables are awesome. This goes on all over America.

Quote :

"Upward mobility is excellent in the US"

Yes, once you have something to start with but for people who start with nothing, and no parents, theres almost no hope.

7/22/2008 2:31:56 PM

Quote :

"Also, middle of nowhere nc is nothing."

I take it you've never been to Fayetteville.

Quote :

"Most school districts are designed in a way to keep the poor poor and not give them money for education."

That is total crap. Local governments certainly do seek to maintain divisions between wealthy and poor areas, but that's why we have state and federal funding. This may sound callous, but it's the truth: the reason poor schools underachieve isn't because of lack of funding-- it's because poor people tend to be awful parents, which in turn produce awful students.

Young teachers dream of the day that they can move into better schools and get a pay cut. I took a decent-sized cut in pay when I moved out of Fayetteville and into a better area, and I couldn't be happier.

I mean, look up local supplements in NC-- apparently kids in Charlotte and Durham should be doing great, since their teachers are paid the highest and second-highest, respectively.

[Edited on July 22, 2008 at 2:57 PM. Reason : ,]

7/22/2008 2:51:30 PM

Quote :

"it's because poor people tend to be awful parents, which in turn produce awful students."

Boone, I dont know what happened or if im dreaming, but you are making alot of sense.

A couple of my friends would sub during the summers in memphis city schools to make some extra money. All but one didnt last the whole summer. Total unaccountability by the parents and they kids were terrible. (from what they said). One girl brought home a note she picked up and it was barely readable. But it called her a white devil bitch. LOL. We all had good laughs over that. She showed it around our class.

7/22/2008 2:56:21 PM

Quote :

"apparently kids in Charlotte and Durham should be doing great, since their teachers are paid the highest and second-highest, respectively. "

Teacher salaries and school funds are two different things. The salaries are higher because there is no supply of teachers that want to be hindered by teaching at a failing school that lacks the proper resources/funding for the teacher to work effectively. Its not like they are going to take their salary and spend it on the children. I know a kindergarten teacher that has a 87 dollar classroom budget for next year. The parents are asked to buy certain cubby supplies like , notebooks, glue etc but usualy don't so thats where the 87 and some pocket money from the teacher will go. After that she is left teaching with just chalk and a board.

Meanwhile a few miles away kids are taking weekly educational cruises, computer lessons and interactive activities.

Quote :

"A couple of my friends would sub during the summers in memphis city schools to make some extra money. All but one didnt last the whole summer. Total unaccountability by the parents and they kids were terrible. (from what they said). One girl brought home a note she picked up and it was barely readable. But it called her a white devil bitch. LOL. We all had good laughs over that. She showed it around our class."

A product of the failing education provided to the parents. Its a loop that needs to be intervened through federal aid.

Quote :

"but that's why we have state and federal funding."

/thread much?

that federal funding doesn't just come out of thin air

Progressive tax ftw



[Edited on July 22, 2008 at 2:58 PM. Reason : see]



[Edited on July 22, 2008 at 3:05 PM. Reason : schools having no money the teachers are just as deprived thus the higher pay]

7/22/2008 2:56:46 PM

And I'm totally for progressive taxation.

I just felt the need to rain on your May Day Parade.

7/22/2008 2:58:51 PM

^LOL, thats right boone. I knew there was a problem with ya. I had almost forgotten what it was.

Wethebest, we are spending the most on our education than ever before. At what point do you think "just throw more money at it" isnt the correct answer?

[Edited on July 22, 2008 at 3:19 PM. Reason : .]

7/22/2008 3:18:57 PM

Kind of like Healthcare? We spend more tax dollars on healthcare per capita, yet fall behind in almost every measurable metric.

7/22/2008 3:20:06 PM

I agree but you what those dont consider is population demographics and lifestyle. We are one fat, lazy, pill popping nation. Im all for getting the govt out of healthcare to rapidly lower healthcare costs. But that is a discussion for a different thread.

7/22/2008 3:22:17 PM

I don't have a problem taxing the wealth of the uber rich. I doubt i'll have $80million in my trust fund by the time i'm 65. This group has so much money that likely they are evading taxes or at the least finding nifty tax shelters. Not to mention they can afford to push legislation to benefit them monetarily.

I'd say a good chunk of the laws made for "family morals" or the "good of society" have some economic hidden agenda to someone.

7/22/2008 3:46:26 PM

Quote :

"Sure it doesn't make it impossible but it sure as hell hurts your chances and normal people aren't going to rise in class anyway. Or else everyone in the middle class would be rich by now. "

They are rich. The median income in this country is something like $40k / year. In 1950 it was less than 20K. Sounds like a giant leap forward for the middle class to me. Of course, rich is relative, and while the middle class doubled their income, so did the upper classes, but that doesn't mean life hasn't improved. We are well beyond basic necessities now.

Quote :

"If we are so generous and willing to give more then whats the problem with just giving more out of the current system? As long as you're not a selfish person that otherwise wouldn't give anything, nothings changed."

It absolutely has changed. I guarantee you $20,000 given to a local charity to help a local population sees more of that money directly applied to the population than $20,000 given to the federal government, to disburse to the state governments to disburse to the population. Cutting out the middle man is always cheaper, and you can be damn sure the government is one hell of a middle man.

Quote :

"Most of these people don't know and their parents don't know to teach them."

You're shitting me right? Most people don't know that the key to having money is to spend less than you earn? And they don't know that kids cost money? Seriously? Then why the fuck are we dumping all this money into helping them if they're just going to piss it away?

Quote :

"You might not want to admit it, but most of our mindsets come from being raised by good parents. Well many of these parents and grandparents and so on have been oppressed into their current state by society and capitalism."

And my grand parents were poor italian immigrants who came here with literally the clothes on their backs. They raised a family of 5 kids in NYC, managed to send all 5 of the kids to college and still managed to save enough money to pay for the care of them as they got older. My grandfather worked as a tailor and my grandmother a secretary who taught herself the stock market on the side.

They broke the cycle of poverty, and this was long before the welfare programs we have now, and their story is hardly unique. Immigrants from around the world come here all the time and do the same thing. It's a matter of perspective and drive, something our systems discourage. My wife qualified for a time for SI benefits, so she looked into it, as a medical condition kept her from maintaining steady employment. The government told her that she couldn't work for 6 months while applying and then after that, she had to maintain employment of less than 20 hours a week or she would lose all benefits. How in the world can we think that such a system is going to do anything other than encourage failure?

Quote :

"I hate to keep reapeating but I can't drill this enough capitalism gives money to the rich and exploits the poor "

You can't drill it enough because it's not true. Capitalism gives money to those that have something to offer, no more, no less.

Quote :

"Once you have money in America, you don't have to work to get more. The best ways to make money are simply having money. Most rich people don't work at all while all the hardest working people are less well off. "

You're kidding right? So explain why 9 out of 10 wealthy families will lose their wealth in 3 generations if you don't need to work once you have money? Rich people don't work at all? They work incredibly hard to get to where they are, and then continue to work to maintain it.

Quote :

"WALMART provides cheap goods by paying their workers next to nothing."

If by next to nothing you mean $2/ hour more than minimum wage to start, yes, which incidentally is no more than they would get at the mom and pop store.

Quote :

"Then they use mind control in their store that people don't even realize they are being victimized by."

Mind control? Seriously? Look, I'm all for having a debate, but can we at least debate reality?

Quote :

" These people go into walmart for a distinct item and whatdya know. They walk past stereos, tvs, toys and everything all strategically placed (people have careers in researching where to put things) and it forces them to overspend meanwhile they force all local businesses out creating further poverty."

Step 1 to solving over spending if you lack self control. Walk into WALMART with exactly the amount of cash you need to purchase the specific item you're looking for.

Step 2 pick up item and get "brain washed" into picking up 3 other expensive items you don't need.

Step 3 get to registers and realize you don't have enough cash for your Mr. Espresso machine, the PS3, a fake fish that sings "Take me to the river" and food for your family.

Step 4 put back the Mr. Espresso Machine, PS3 and fake fish, and buy the food you came here for.

It's not that hard.

As far as driving local businesses out, the only way WALMART does that is by offering a better product at a better price. If they didn't offer either, people wouldn't shop there, but the simple fact of the matter is, people want cheaper prices. Question, when was the last time you specifically sought out a more expensive, made in America product from a mom and pop store instead of finding the cheapest price?

Quote :

"Middle class kids make some of the same mistakes that poor kids make and the outcomes are completely different. Some guys from my school went on a mass burglary of homes and got caught but ended up going to college, graduating and being successful. If they were poor they likely would be in prison because their parents wouldn't have had the smarts or funds to get them out of it."

Yeah, life can be crappy like that, but you know how to make the playing field even. Don't fucking go on a burglary spree. You're seriously saying that I should feel compassion for some schmuck who felt that because he didn't have everything he wanted that he would just take from others. Other people who most likely were working just as hard as he was to get ahead in life?

Quote :

"Yes, once you have something to start with but for people who start with nothing, and no parents, theres almost no hope."

No hope? So where are my tax dollars going because there are damn sure plenty of government programs out there, and many times more private programs, to help people who need a hand pull themselves up. So where are all of my tax dollars going if there is no hope?

Oh, I know, it's going to people like this http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92592545

Quote :

"Nunez, 40, has never worked and has no high school degree. She says a car accident 17 years ago left her depressed and disabled, incapable of getting a job. Instead, she and her daughter, Angelica Hernandez, survive on a $637 Social Security check and $102 in food stamps. ... People tell Nunez her daughter could get more money in public assistance if she had a child. "A lot of people have told me, 'Why don't your daughter have a kid?'"""

Clearly these people need more money. They don't have anything, what with having all day long to sit around and be depressed. Its clear that they have no upward mobility because evil capitalism is keeping them down by not rewarding them for staying at home all day.

Quote :

"After that she is left teaching with just chalk and a board. "

However will the children learn with just chalk and a chalk board? Gosh, it's so, so, so ... 1990's

Quote :

"Meanwhile a few miles away kids are taking weekly educational cruises, computer lessons and interactive activities. "

Is there something about chalk and chalkboards that prevent activities in the classroom from being interactive?

Quote :

"that federal funding doesn't just come out of thin air Progressive tax ftw"

Federal funding != progressive tax. Try again.

Quote :

"I don't have a problem taxing the wealth of the uber rich. I doubt i'll have $80million in my trust fund by the time i'm 65. This group has so much money that likely they are evading taxes or at the least finding nifty tax shelters. Not to mention they can afford to push legislation to benefit them monetarily. "

The problem is, the loopholes and the ways to avoid taxes exist because our tax system is so big and complex. Most of the nifty tricks to avoid taxes exist precisely because we have a progressive system with tax brackets and such

[Edited on July 22, 2008 at 4:44 PM. Reason : dsfal;j]

7/22/2008 4:42:26 PM