I called him anti-American because I think the charge is ridiculous. I'm anti-American. Maybe I haven't been paying enough attention, but RedGuard has always struck me as moderate and, if anything, overly generous to this country.

8/10/2008 11:22:18 AM

Quote :

"newly rebuilt Russian military muscle."

I am very interested in the capabilities of this "newly rebuilt Russian military muscle."

8/10/2008 11:35:09 AM

well, im gonna voice my opinion, take it as you will. I'm an american and a russian citizen (although neither country acknowledges the other's) and my dad was born in georgia(the country, foo). Neither russia or georgia is right. Russia fought a long war in chechnya, google map it, and notice what its right next to. They tried to separate and it caused a long pointless war with russia. Now a part of georgia wants to split off. That entire region is very ethnically mixed, and have always been troubled as a result. Russians don't want another war on their border, which is why their forces are "peacekeeping". So far the agression has been from georgia trying to suppress ossetian rebels, but their "suppression" so far has simply been to destroy their cities and attack civilians in response to rebel attacks (very similar to the israeli conflict). Ever since the war ended in chechnya, there's been talk that another war is imminent in the mountains between russia and georgia. Georgia was wrong to provoke the Russians by attacking the ossetians, because I'm they were fully aware of the response they would receive from russia. Russia was wrong to invade instead of trying the diplomatic approach. IMO in general war is a failure of diplomacy, or just a projection of greed.

8/10/2008 8:24:47 PM

As I said before, Russians are all about territorial integrity when it benefits them, and against it when it benefits them.

They fought a long war in Chechnya to prevent it from splitting from them, in the process killing and maimining tens of thousands of civilians, destroying cities, and [allegedly] committing horrible war crimes.

They supported Serbia in their war against Kosovo and tried very hard to prevent it from seceding.

But now, when Georgia is trying to do the same with Ossetia, they of course want Ossetia to break away because Georgia is an ally of the West.

As in [almost] any country in the world, hypocrisy, immorality, and amorality rules Russian politics.

8/10/2008 10:06:36 PM

Why do people in other countries get their panties all in a wad over stupid shit like what ethnic group you are a part of. I don't see California trying to break away from the union b.c they are full of liberal hippy douches during the years of the conservative Bush administration.

8/10/2008 10:38:47 PM

We should intervene.

8/11/2008 8:38:34 AM

Georgia conflict halts oil's deep slide
http://money.cnn.com/2008/08/11/markets/oil/index.htm?postversion=2008081110

Not saying that this has anything to do with it necessarily, but Russia's economic growth in the past few years has been heavily fueled by the rise in oil prices.

http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10765120

Just something to think about.

[Edited on August 11, 2008 at 11:20 AM. Reason : .]

8/11/2008 11:19:39 AM

I seriously doubt that our relationship with Russia will drastically change over this. Besides it seems as if the Georgian president had a plan up his sleeve but it backfired and now he is in fear for his life. I am guessing his plan was something along these lines:

1.) Buddy up with Europe and USA

2.) Join NATO

3.) Take over and reunite S Ossetia

4.) Back Russia down with threat of saying that NATO would declare war if they didn't turn the providence over.

Because # 2-4 failed and with the timing of the attack he has really screwed up. All the other countries around the world are going to condemn Russia but there really is nothing anyone can do except wait because this is a Russia vs Georgia conflict not World War III.

8/11/2008 12:29:52 PM

Yeah, that doesn't make much sense. If 50% of his plan failed to come together I doubt he'd attack a much larger and more powerful neighbor to the north. Oil is tied deeply into this one, but we really can't call Russia out on that, now can we?

8/11/2008 1:21:38 PM

$10 says we have SF troops in there, providing AA missiles and support

[Edited on August 11, 2008 at 1:47 PM. Reason : .]

8/11/2008 1:46:55 PM

SF? Yes.

SAMs? Too obvious, so probably not. I doubt any Americans there are actually pulling triggers, just advising at the upper echelons and helping to evacuate US citizens.

8/11/2008 1:53:32 PM

well I was thinking MANPADS such as Stingers, like they provided to the Afghans in the 80's

8/11/2008 1:57:08 PM

Another big worry, if the Russians take control of Georgia, they would take away one of the only routes for Europe to diversify their energy requirements beyond Russia.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080811/ap_on_re_eu/russia_the_energy_weapon

8/11/2008 2:18:19 PM

We've been training the Georgians for awhile. They are just completely out gunned/out manned.

I don't know, but if Russia tried to actually takeover Georgia/puppet it, I think you would see more direct intervention by Europe, Turkey, and the US. They all have reasons to not want that, not to mention that the Georgian government was elected democratically and, more importantly, transparently.

Honestly, I don't think any rational person could think that Russia would do this just for the South Ossetians.

8/11/2008 2:22:42 PM

On the news now:

"Georgian President says Russian Forces control majority of Russian territory"

Really? Wow!

8/11/2008 2:24:55 PM

didnt we try to get them into nato like a month ago?

8/11/2008 2:28:40 PM

Quote :

"As I said before, Russians are all about territorial integrity when it benefits them, and against it when it benefits them. They fought a long war in Chechnya to prevent it from splitting from them, in the process killing and maimining tens of thousands of civilians, destroying cities, and [allegedly] committing horrible war crimes. They supported Serbia in their war against Kosovo and tried very hard to prevent it from seceding. But now, when Georgia is trying to do the same with Ossetia, they of course want Ossetia to break away because Georgia is an ally of the West. As in [almost] any country in the world, hypocrisy, immorality, and amorality rules Russian politics. "

You're right, the hypocrisy is from every country. Likewise one could say the Americans are the hypocrites because they are saying the opposite things they said in Kosovo.

There are no good-guys in this mess.

The Georgian president is a scumbag and I feel no sympathy for him in his pleading to the West for his political career, though I do feel bad for all the Russians, Georgians, and Ossetians dead as a result of idiot leaders trying to score political points with war and ultranationalism.

The Georgian leadership was awful in this whole debacle. First of all they have an extremely hawkish president who raised the military budget from $30 million to $1 billion (5.6% of their GDP!).

Saakashveli started the whole invasion thinking he could boost his falling popularity and avoid Russian response by securing the tunnel before they even responded. What he should have realized is that Putin is every bit as much a heartless cynic as himself, and of course Russia would escalate the situation as soon as possible.

Today the media complains about Russia attacking points in Georgia itself, and they're right to, but they also seem to also be validating the Georgian claim that they are innocent in all this. Funny how the media always has to have a good guy who can do no wrong and a bad guy who is purely evil.

They seem to forget that it was four days ago Saakashveli secured a ceasefire with the separatists and called for negotiations with the Ossetians, then immediately broke it, at the start of the Olympics, no less, to gain the element of surprise. And the attack was completely ruthless, they flattened the capital with shelling and may have killed 1600 before Russia even showed up. There are also reports claiming that Georgian peacekeepers just suddenly started firing at their Russian counterparts before anyone knew what was going on at the start of the invasion.

Both sides are guilty of many things. I wish the media would stop trying to paint everything black and white.

[Edited on August 11, 2008 at 2:46 PM. Reason : a]

8/11/2008 2:46:12 PM

Quote :

"5.6% of their GDP!"

sounds like gwb amiright?

8/11/2008 3:04:43 PM

Quote :

"They seem to forget that it was four days ago Saakashveli secured a ceasefire with the separatists and called for negotiations with the Ossetians, then immediately broke it, at the start of the Olympics, no less, to gain the element of surprise. And the attack was completely ruthless, they flattened the capital with shelling and may have killed 1600 before Russia even showed up. There are also reports claiming that Georgian peacekeepers just suddenly started firing at their Russian counterparts before anyone knew what was going on at the start of the invasion."

Really? Really? You seem to be buying into a shit ton of Russian propaganda. None of that, none, has been verified by anyone except the Russians. Sorry if I don't buy it. Georgians wanted a cease-fire, but they claim separatists broke it by shelling Georgian enclaves. (where did the Ossetians get their weapons and ammunition? Right). And who has ethnically cleansed who here? The Georgians use to be the ethnic majority in Abkhazia, but are now a small minority. That's why the Georgian president has been hawkish, because the Georgians have been on the receiving end of two decades of being kicked in the nuts.

I don't think anyone thinks Georgia didn't make some miscalculations, but to think Russia isn't the "bad guy" here is silly.

8/11/2008 3:17:37 PM

anyone else feel like this is the beginning of a Tom Clancy novel?

8/11/2008 3:25:40 PM

^ now that I think about it, it does sound like the beginning to Red Storm Rising

8/11/2008 3:31:55 PM

bush is going on at 5:15et to address the nation involving this issue. i won't be surprised if he formally enters the war.

8/11/2008 3:42:17 PM

I don't see that happening. Sanctions? Perhaps. UN "action"? Perhaps. We're not going to war with Russia.

8/11/2008 3:48:52 PM

well the fact that he picked 5:15 as his time to talk I think is intentional and it sends me the message that this could be serious

8/11/2008 3:54:43 PM

well this is serious, and generally any time the president speaks to the whole country it is serious, but I still don't see a war.

No-fly zone maybe?

8/11/2008 4:01:37 PM

Shouldn't Europe be leading the way on this?

8/11/2008 4:08:20 PM

Quote :

"No-fly zone maybe? "

are you high?

this is RUSSIA we're talking about, not some pissant middle-eastern "OMG WE HAVE LOTS OF OIL, NOW WHAT?" nation

RUSSIA

say it again

RUSSIA

you know, that's big scary nation with enough nukes to evaporate the world several times over...

"no fly zone", pfft...

8/11/2008 4:10:09 PM

Quote :

"bush is going on at 5:15et to address the nation involving this issue."

Where has this been announced?

8/11/2008 4:10:55 PM

http://www.foxnews.com/

8/11/2008 4:13:59 PM

^^ FOX News, for one. And widely on something called the Internet:

Bush to speak on Georgia conflict at 5:15 EDT - Reuters

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/WBT009537.htm

Yahoo

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080811/pl_nm/georgia_ossetia_bush_dc_4

USA Today

http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2008/08/bush-to-speak-o.html

[Edited on August 11, 2008 at 4:16 PM. Reason : .]

8/11/2008 4:14:52 PM

Quote :

"are you high? this is RUSSIA we're talking about, not some pissant middle-eastern "OMG WE HAVE LOTS OF OIL, NOW WHAT?" nation"

I don't expect it, but it is far more likely than any significant ground action. Besides, this isn't Russia we're talking about this is Georgia. Would Russia really risk an aerial conflict with US aircraft operating under invited conditions in sovereign airspace? As stretched out as our military is, Russia's is still recovering from the fall of the USSR. I don't think much other than words will be passed at this point.


On another note, McCain was wearing an orange tie when he condemned Russia. I'm wondering if that was intentional.

8/11/2008 4:17:55 PM

you do know that WW III is always just a couple of bad decisions away... right?

8/11/2008 4:20:00 PM

does this administration have a track record of good ones?

8/11/2008 4:21:05 PM

their level of retardation is that that far along...

you bully the people you can, not the other other big kid down the street

8/11/2008 4:22:36 PM

I'm sure the answer to this crisis and any other is hope.

8/11/2008 4:24:14 PM

^^ Look, I'm not saying I support it or that it is likely, just that I find it to be the most likely overt military action.

8/11/2008 4:25:20 PM

^^

no, it's keeping the retards and hotheads under control why pursuing realistic diplomacy

[Edited on August 11, 2008 at 4:26 PM. Reason : .]

8/11/2008 4:25:35 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_TD3mgGJoY

8/11/2008 4:28:33 PM

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=hyperbole

8/11/2008 4:30:57 PM

Quote :

"I doubt he'd attack a much larger and more powerful neighbor to the north. Oil is tied deeply into this one, but we really can't call Russia out on that, now can we? "

we'd be the pot calling the kettle black.

Quote :

"Would Russia really risk an aerial conflict with US aircraft operating under invited conditions in sovereign airspace? "

I guarantee yes. i am sure some kremlin blow hard ex-communist is cumming in his pants
about duking it with the US. If anything Turkey and the european nations need to lead
any kind of negotiation. I think Georgia is out of the range of the
monroe doctrine anyway.

8/11/2008 4:31:17 PM

If we entered this war against russia we would only be fighting them in goergia. the fighting wouldn't spread outside of that its not like we would be invading each other and at all out war.

8/11/2008 4:38:20 PM

Sarkozy has appointed himself peacemaker-in-chief again. Never know how things turn out with him, he is great at getting things done, but on the other hand, he sometimes gets obsessed with himself and pisses everyone off. I hope he appreciates the importance of getting this done and doesn't try to provoke anyone for political points. Russia said it wants the OSCE to provide troops for S. Ossetia, so as EU president he has some bargaining leverage.

I hope they work this out before McCain manages to declare war on Russia somehow. His rhetoric is getting stronger and stronger.

[Edited on August 11, 2008 at 4:48 PM. Reason : .]

8/11/2008 4:47:25 PM

Ws on.


moderately strong words . . . that's it for now.

[Edited on August 11, 2008 at 5:24 PM. Reason : .]

8/11/2008 5:22:17 PM

To be fair to the Georgians at this point, the current Russian actions are definitely overkill for their declared objectives. The Georgians have pretty much been driven out of South Ossetia, but it looks like the Bear wants to beat the living snot out of Georgia and break the spine of both its military and government. No need conquer Georgia, in Russian thinking, just burn enough of the country and neuter their armed forces to remind them who ultimately rules the Caucuses.

[Edited on August 11, 2008 at 5:41 PM. Reason : .]

8/11/2008 5:41:35 PM

I feel sorry for Georgia. They were tricked by the US into fighting in Iraq but the US doesn't help them back.

8/11/2008 5:58:38 PM

^^^ I find it interesting that Russia would want OSCE to have a roll in future peacekeeping activities. Russia has pretty much told OSCE to go fuck itself lately and has blamed OSCE for at least having a part in the Rose Revolution that brought Saakashvili to power. However, Russia does have a voice in OSCE so that may explain their interest.

I've been watching 'Russia Today' (Russian News station in English on TVU player) for the past half hour and it is really interesting to see how it is being reported from their perspective. Needless to say it is a bit different than most western media outlets.

8/11/2008 6:03:09 PM

Quote :

""Russia should immediately and unconditionally cease its military operations and withdraw all forces from sovereign Georgian territory,""

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/08/11/candidates.georgia/index.html


What would the media and our administrations response be if Russia/France/China/Iran said "USA should immediately and unconditionally cease its military operations and withdraw all forces from sovereign Iraq territory under Saddam".

I think Russia has more legitimate claim for military operations in Georgia (which they border and contains a large Russian community) then the US did in Iraq.

I guess obama and McCain have to sound tough on the Russian display of military authority to save face because we all know

" ONLY USA #1 CAN GO AROUND AND INVADE LIBERATE/REGIME CHANGE/POLICE other nations RAWR RAWR RAWR"

8/11/2008 9:03:14 PM

^ I don't disagree that there is some hypocrisy in the US making such a demand, but it is highly questionable whether Russia needs to flatten Georgia like it is doing. In Desert Storm, we stopped short of destroying Iraq, and a similar action seems appropriate here for Russia. But instead, they are flattening the entire country. Doesn't really make sense...

8/11/2008 10:16:15 PM

It makes perfect sense if Russia only used South Ossetia as an excuse to launch a well planned and organized invasion.

Crazy to compare the United States and Iraq with Russia and Georgia for a lot of reasons.

8/11/2008 10:47:48 PM

^ well, yeah, but I meant that for Russia to claim it is merely "peacekeeping" doesn't make sense. sorry, didn't clarify that. read my mind, damnit!

8/11/2008 10:48:51 PM