^ you're fine to define the white experience as being privileged, but surely you realize this would help to validate allegations of racism?

And the fact that I answered your question in this thread, several times, proves your assertions of strawmans were wrong.

And blacks have a "shared experience" because the whites gave them one. As I noted, this goes for many minority groups around the world.

Jews, Sunnis, white south africans (maybe-- i've never met any), etc.

[Edited on October 24, 2008 at 8:42 PM. Reason : ]

10/24/2008 8:40:03 PM

Quote :

"Whites were never oppressed or had to fight for their suffrage like blacks in America have. And there are still blacks living today that can remember not being allowed to vote. "

None of Obama's family members were denied suffrage back as far as women could vote.

10/24/2008 9:14:25 PM

answering my questions doesn't mean you didn't posit a strawman, buddy.

so, if whites gave blacks a common "experience," could they not have given themselves one too?

10/24/2008 9:28:53 PM

Quote :

"Like I said, blacks are simply voting democrat as they always have. If Condy Rice was Mccains running mate it would be the same. Obama's skin is just an added plus to all the people black and white who are voting for Obama anyway."

Okay smart guy....if Obama was the Republican candidate and McCain was the democrat candidate, then who would these blacks being coming out in record numbers to vote for?

You're a terrible troll.

10/25/2008 1:21:56 AM

^ Pointing out indisputable historical facts isn't trolling.

Quote :

"It's not racist for a black person to vote for Obama because he's black, but it IS racist for a white person to vote for McCain because he's white? Really?"

Something like that. There's a difference between the traditionally dominant group and the oppressed group. You can't just mix and match as you please.

10/25/2008 1:32:39 AM

Quote :

"None of Obama's family members were denied suffrage back as far as women could vote. "

How truly in touch with black Americans are is probably debatable. I'm sure there are "levels" but blacks obviously see something in Obama they didn't see in Jackson or any of the other black figures that have run for office.

In any case, whether his ancestors were actually oppressed is irrelevant, I would bet at some point growing up he was called a nigger, and likely had MANY distasteful comments thrown his way for being black, or being mixed race, and i'm sure people said stuff about his mother too. Living with these things can solidify a group, particularly when their experiences are so similar.

Quote :

"so, if whites gave blacks a common "experience," could they not have given themselves one too?"

That's like asking if you can tickle yourself.

You don't seem to have a grasp of what is meant by experience either. Lots of groups can have common experiences, but those groups don't have to be defined by skin color. 9/11, for example, is a unifying experience for Americans. Italians seem to have a special relationship with each other too, that other whites or groups don't really view as being racist. By your definitions, you would have to.

[Edited on October 25, 2008 at 2:54 AM. Reason : ]

10/25/2008 2:50:35 AM

Quote :

" In any case, whether his ancestors were actually oppressed is irrelevant, I would bet at some point growing up he was called a nigger, and likely had MANY distasteful comments thrown his way for being black, or being mixed race"

I don't know about that, he spent most of his time till he was a teenager outside the US, then he lived in Hawaii right? Hawaii is/was incredibly multicultural.. I honestly doubt he experienced much racism at least until he left for college, and even then I doubt it. He had a pretty good life, and nothing like a typical black American life. Blacks are excited about him solely because of the color of his skin, he shares no real connection other than that. That is pretty sad really.

10/25/2008 2:56:31 AM

^ Is there some rule that adult blacks don't face racism?

And he talked about some of his experiences in his book, so i'm fairly confident he understands those things.

And just because Hawaii, or any place, is multicultural doesn't mean there's no racism.

And I also don't see what having a good life has to do with whether or not he experienced racism. That's one of the despicable aspects of racism, it doesn't pick its targets, it's very blind and superficial.

Further, while the phrase "good life" is relative, I don't know between his dad leaving him, moving back and forth from the US to Indonesia (his mom sounds a bit kooky IMO), and his mom living on food stamps at one point in her life counts as signs he had a good life. A good life isn't a requisite for a good person, and some of our best leaders in fact were hardened by having to take leadership at younger than normal ages because of these types of adversity.

And if you think blacks are excited just because of skin color, that's pretty sad, but I wonder what is your explanation for no other black leader generating this much excitement? It's obvious to me that it's not just his skin color. I suggest you go to an Obama rally (it's probably too late now though), and maybe you can see what the blacks there are really excited about.

10/25/2008 3:10:55 AM

The point was, you don't know that he experienced a lot of racism in his life. But you assume so. And regardless, it doesn't change the fact that his life was pretty atypical and has very, very little in common with "black America." Also, isn't Obama the first "black" presidential nominee? At least from a major party.

So... why haven't blacks been excited by any other presidential candidate in the past 40 years? I mean, Clinton had a great relationship with the black community right? And he campaigned on change, and used a lot of the same rhetoric as Obama... Yet, you didn't see the same type of reaction. I think you are deluding yourself if you don't think that the main reason most blacks are so excited about Obama is because of his skin color. A white guy, or gal, with the exact same message, speaking skill, etc would have not excited the black community in the same way. They are saying, hey he is one of us, because he kinda looks like us.

Obama has said nothing new, his message isn't amazing, nor are his plans for the future. He has raised and spent an ungodly amount of money in a hugely successful PR campaign, which has really only gained traction in the past month due to the sinking of the economy and plunders by the other side. :yawn: Obama is nothing special, he is a pretty typical politician.

10/25/2008 6:24:56 AM

^ Some of them definitely are excited at the prospect of black man becoming president. In context, this makes plenty of sense. It would be a great symbolic victory. For years, folks have assumed that only white men can get elected to that high office.

But remember, Clinton did better among blacks at first. They didn't automatically gravitate to one of their own. He had to convince them, just like any other politician.

10/25/2008 11:31:10 AM

Quote :

"why haven't blacks been excited by any other presidential candidate in the past 40 years? I mean, Clinton had a great relationship with the black community right? And he campaigned on change, and used a lot of the same rhetoric as Obama."

Look it up. Blacks overwhelmingly voted for Clinton, Kerry and gore. Turnout is higher amongst everyone for this election because this is arguably the most important election ever. Its been a long time since America has been at such a great crossroads so obviously more people are going to vote this time around.

10/25/2008 11:33:46 AM

Quote :

"Look it up. Blacks overwhelmingly voted for Clinton, Kerry and gore. "

What?? Did you even read what I wrote in context. That was the point, that Clinton got the black vote, but he didn't bring out the black vote, like Obama is doing, even though Clinton holds the same views as Obama in relation to that community. Thus it isn't Obama's stance on issues, it's the color of his skin that has excited the black community...

10/25/2008 11:51:58 AM

Did you even read what I wrote? About how its not the candidate but the seriousness of the current state of this nation and fact that people are finally feeling the effects of poor leadership from the last 8 years that is bringing out people of all races and ages to vote more than ever. This is expected to be a record turnout nationwide.

10/25/2008 12:11:27 PM

Most of my black colleagues loved Clinton. Who in turn, was arguably one of our best presidents.

10/25/2008 2:37:48 PM

wethebest: "Almost every black person voted for Kerry, Gore and Clinton so how exactly is that racist?"

tmmercer: "What African American choice did they have?"

What about Al Sharpton? There was no mass influx of black voters trying to make him the nominee during the primaries in 2000 and 2004.

10/26/2008 6:39:05 PM

Quote :

"The point was, you don't know that he experienced a lot of racism in his life. But you assume so."

I don't assume, Obama has noted it in his book, and touched on it in his post-Wright speech on race.

Quote :

"And regardless, it doesn't change the fact that his life was pretty atypical and has very, very little in common with "black America." "

Who's assuming now? Both McCain, Obama's, and practically every president in history has had an "atypical" life from some perspective. This doesn't change the fact that blacks in America have a unique sense of unity with Obama because of the challenges they have faced in our society. Note as well that this unity, I predict, will fade away to American unity within the next 3 decades or so, as it already has started to post-9/11. It's still a factor today though. There's even a TV show on The Disney Channel promoting black/white relationships.

Quote :

"So... why haven't blacks been excited by any other presidential candidate in the past 40 years? I mean, Clinton had a great relationship with the black community right? And he campaigned on change, and used a lot of the same rhetoric as Obama... Yet, you didn't see the same type of reaction. I think you are deluding yourself if you don't think that the main reason most blacks are so excited about Obama is because of his skin color. A white guy, or gal, with the exact same message, speaking skill, etc would have not excited the black community in the same way. They are saying, hey he is one of us, because he kinda looks like us."

A white person couldn't have the same message as Obama, unless they were adopted and raised by black parents, or half black and looked white.

And the issue is not merely skin color. You could take Bill Clinton, and perform a medical procedure that gave him black skin, and he wouldn't be able to generate the excitement of Obama, because blacks would know he doesn't fully understand their community. Obama married a very black American wife from Harlem, and she doesn't hide her upbringing, that alone symbolizes to the black community that he understands them more than you seem to accept.

Quote :

"Obama has said nothing new, his message isn't amazing, nor are his plans for the future. He has raised and spent an ungodly amount of money in a hugely successful PR campaign, which has really only gained traction in the past month due to the sinking of the economy and plunders by the other side. :yawn: Obama is nothing special, he is a pretty typical politician. "

Wow, you must live in an alternative dimension.

Obama's message is fundamentally same to what he ran his local campaign on in Ill.. Obama has been ahead of McCain the vast majority of this race, and he didn't pull ahead until the debates, when people actually saw who he was. His campaign has been great, but he didn't get any substantial lead until the debates, where his PR had no affect. It was pure Obama.

And did you even listen to his post-Wright race speech? There was tons of new rhetoric in there that hasn't been out in the open since the MLK days, that has significant appeal with the minority groups and progressive thinkers. Obama could be blowing smoke, but the middle class needs a champion for them, and Obama's language and subtext promote the idea that he can genuinely be this champion.

10/26/2008 7:06:40 PM

Quote :

"See, I keep trying to look at this stuff from several different angles, but it always ends up the same way - Obama's just motivated so many people to vote that his numbers are going to be staggering. "

That's because Obama has put together the most kick ass grassroots field team to ever come into existence...

http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/osupsuchallenge

Those numbers are pretty normal for a weekend...I'd love to see McCain's numbers (all those doors were knocked by volunteers not paid canvassers).

Ohio challenged PA, the videos each state made are pretty funny too...start at the bottom and work up.

[Edited on October 27, 2008 at 12:12 AM. Reason : .]

10/27/2008 12:10:12 AM

Early vote numbers have now reached 1.7 million with 3 days to go.

10/30/2008 3:38:06 AM

Quote :

"According to the NC State Board of Elections, about 67% of those who have voted so far (absentee and one-stop) are registered as democrats. If people have been voting along party lines, then that is a very good sign."

This statement is full of stupid as others have pointed out. Many NC democrats have voted conservatively for as long as i can remember

10/30/2008 3:49:35 AM

Numbers are going to shoot up after today. I voted yesterday in an hour long line @ Pullen and driving by today the line was about twice as long.

10/31/2008 5:09:06 PM

I went to Cary Town Center last night and the line snaked on itself 4 times, then went down one wing of the mall as far as I could see, so we left.
Went back again today at 3:00, and it was still the same length, but I stayed this time. It only took 55 minutes to get all the way through, which I thought was pretty good considering the length of the line. And I was pleased with the efficiency of the process once you got inside the store. it was well laid out and they were moving people from table to table quite quickly, but were still explaining everything every step of the way

10/31/2008 5:21:52 PM

My feeling is that if a white person geuinely feels a sense of hope and pride in voting for McCain because he is white then that is not racist.

This is rare because unlike black, white is not an ethnic group. Most white people identify with a sub-group such as Italian, Irish, Scottish, etc.

For example, it wouldn't surprise me at all if there are people voting for McCain because his name is Scottish. That is not racist in my opinion.

10/31/2008 8:08:59 PM

are you being serious?


Caucasian is an ethnic group as far as govt documents is concerned

10/31/2008 8:41:54 PM