^ Are you implying that liberals don't believe in the principles of the constitution?

[Edited on October 29, 2008 at 6:06 PM. Reason : ]

10/29/2008 6:06:03 PM

Quote :

"now come on. Who ever accused you of being "thoughtful, rational, and progressive" ??"

I think I'd fit that description, and I sure as hell don't agree with Obama.

Quote :

"How could the founding fathers have believed in a constitution that didn't exist yet?[quote] Oh come the fuck on...what the hell kind of argument is this? They obviously believed in it...they fucking WROTE IT...hence the name, "Founding Fathers". What aspect of liberal ideology is against either the constitution OR individual rights?"

I assure you, if this statement was true, I would be a liberal, as that is the biggest thing that drives my view on political issues. Rest equally assured that I am not a liberal, at least in the sense that you are referring to.

Quote :

"You do realize that the conservatives of today believe in everything the founding fathers did."

That TOTALLY depends on what sort of "conservatives of today" you are referring to.

[Edited on October 29, 2008 at 6:08 PM. Reason : ^ what's there to imply? I think that's pretty obvious, bordering on by definition.]

10/29/2008 6:07:41 PM

No I'm not implying that. Liberals have a radical interpretation of it, conservatives have a conservative interpretation of it. Though the far far left dingbats probrably hate everything the constitution stands for.

10/29/2008 6:14:29 PM

^,^^
By definition liberals believe in individual liberty.

If you want to talk about politicians that represent liberals/conservative, they don't represent a consistent ideology, but you can't judge liberals by their politicians, but judge conservatives by their philosophical ideals.

Neither group has politicians that come remotely close to representing the ideals.

[Edited on October 29, 2008 at 6:15 PM. Reason : ]

10/29/2008 6:14:51 PM

I am judging the ideals in both cases.

10/29/2008 6:17:21 PM

the issue is not degrees of tax freedom for businesses, or the "freedom" to decrease tge capital gains tax, or the "slavery" of increasing the highest tax brackets for individuals making over $250K annual income.

the issues are these:

-- are we a nation of xenophobic ultra-nationalists

-- are we a nation of intolerant bigots and religious extremists

-- are we invaders and occupiers of sovereign nations

-- are we ruled by fear and division

-- are we going to sink further into paranoid us-versus-them tribalistic isolation

-- are we anti-intellectuals who shun scientific discovery

-- are we a nation that spies on our citizens and tortures our enemies



the past 7 years shows thats what we have become .... the flag twista posted a few posts back IS the flag of the past 7 years.

that's not my flag, and it doesn't represent me.

my flag is the US Flag, my Constitution is the US Constitution, my Bill of Rights is the first Ten Amendments found therein.

So all you ultra-nationalists, neo-conservatives, and christian theocrats, listen up: some seven years ago, in an environment of fear and uncertainty and doubt, you convinced us to hand the flag and the constitution to you for safekeeping.

what did you do? you fucking shit all over them.

well, look outside. I'm here with about a hundred million motherfuckers and we're here to take them back.

your time is done.

the US Flag will be ours once again













[Edited on October 29, 2008 at 7:08 PM. Reason : ]

10/29/2008 6:47:26 PM

well put.

10/29/2008 6:59:39 PM

^^Actually when Bush took over there wasn't an environment of fear or uncertainty. That came when 9/11 hit, which was almost a year after the election of 2000. And when you try to make a point you might want to do it without using mf, that is the classlessness that make people not want to try to understand you.

10/29/2008 8:16:22 PM

Quote :

"That came when 9/11 hit, which was almost a year after the election of 2000"

2001 + 7 = 2008

10/29/2008 8:27:50 PM

He's using motherfucker in the Samuel L sense of the word, not the derogatory sense.

10/29/2008 8:31:54 PM

Alright, in 2000 people were ignorant. In 2004, they were scared stupid. This time, there is no excuse. If Barack Obama doesn't win this election, I will have officially lost all faith in the people of this country. The choice couldn't possibly be any clearer.

10/29/2008 8:32:13 PM

Quote :

"By definition liberals believe in individual liberty"

I dont see how you can have individual liberty with a large federal government. Social liberty goes hand in hand with economic liberty.

10/29/2008 8:53:19 PM

Quote :

"Social liberty goes hand in hand with economic liberty."

I don't equate progressive taxation with suppression of economic liberty.

10/29/2008 8:56:42 PM

Quote :

"fuck yea I drive a subaru. Subaru Outback AWD FTW. good for the crazy hills in the city of Seattle, i can drive to Paradise Inn on Mt. Rainier for a day hike, or I can throw my sea kayaks on top and drive out to the San Juans. now what'chu got? yeah, that's what i thought."

Hey man I got nothing against Scoobies, they're a much better alternative to an SUV. I really liked the WRX and STi, well until this model cycle. Now they look like souped up Toyotas.

10/29/2008 9:22:34 PM

In response to joe_schmoe's bulletted list a few posts above (which is something he seems to be doing frequently lately and which I approve of, since I think it helps cut down on bullshit at key points), my responses, in order:

1) Not remarkably more than we have been in the past century or so. The extent to which that seems to sync up more with the current administration may be greater, but I don't think that's particularly fair, either.

2) Pretty much same as #1, except I think we've gotten consistently better on the bigotry. I'll admit that the religious right has gotten a swell of influence, but I suspect that's more a cause of the Bush Presidency than it is a result of it.

3) Oh, yeah, totally. I mean, it's hard to get by the fact that we invaded and occupied two sovereign nations. Of course, most people really only started raising a fuss about the second one...but I digress. Clinton led military actions against sovereign nations that, while not resulting in a full on occupation, did result in US troops staying on the ground for long periods of time doing occupier stuff. So did Bush Sr., so did Reagan...

4) Again, I don't think any more than usual. Before the terrorists it was the communists, then the nazis, then the Spanish, and so on all the way back to the French and British.

5) I think that depends just as much on the rest of the world as it does us. If we get attacked again, we will sink further. If some of our allies decide to be dicks even after Bush is voted out, possibly the same.

6) Stupid people are and will continue to be. I don't think that a large part of the nation is going to change on that point based on this election, but fortunately it seems that neither candidate is the anti-intellectual Bush is. This is one of the things I hate most about him, incidentally.

7) That'll probably get reduced, but it's been happening since long before Bush. At the very least since near the founding of the CIA and NSA, who have happily been spying on Americans (in violation of their charters) pretty much from the get-go. It's something to be pissed about, but to act like it's new to the last 8 years is pretty much just wrong.

Quote :

"the US Flag will be ours once again "

Isn't this just more of a "wrong America vs. real America" mentality?

10/29/2008 9:29:11 PM

Quote :

"I don't equate progressive taxation with suppression of economic liberty."

I equate most taxation with supression of economic liberty. Same with government bailouts, subsidies, or any other form of meddling in the market.

I'd much rather pay taxes to a strong state government that I can support and change, than pay a federal government who is going to do nothing with my money.

10/29/2008 9:38:13 PM

BTW on Nov 5th: When you put on your Taiwanese shirt, turn on your Korean flat screen to watch a victory speech, then hop in your Japanese car and burn some Arabic oil, be proud because you MADE A DIFFERENCE.

I voted for McCain, haters. I will continue to be patriotic no matter who wins. Joe, you're a fair-weather American.

[Edited on October 29, 2008 at 10:09 PM. Reason : .]

10/29/2008 10:00:54 PM

Quote :

"that is my secret fear. "

Mine is that Obama and his crew know they can't hide their marxist goals forever. The press can only hold out for so long.

He knows he will have basically one term to do as much liberal mayhem as possible. Get his picks on the supreme court, set up a basic gov't health-care system, raise taxes and set up a new welfare system with "tax rebates" to the 40% who pay no income taxes.

He knows by the end of his term, the majority of the country will have wised up and turned on him.

10/29/2008 10:01:15 PM

^^damn that guy's bitter

who's the hater?

[Edited on October 29, 2008 at 10:03 PM. Reason : .]

10/29/2008 10:02:51 PM

Mine is that a significant portion of America is dumb enough to think Obama is a marxist.

Scary

10/29/2008 10:03:56 PM

IF YA DONT LIKE TAXES YA CAN JUST GIIIIIIT OUUUT

seriously move to Ireland or something.

10/29/2008 10:33:29 PM

I'm considering getting dual citizenship with Ireland

10/30/2008 4:58:20 PM

I wonder where I could get citizenship for a tax haven?

10/30/2008 5:10:38 PM

Quote :

" I hate what the past 8 years have done to the Banner."

What have the past 8 years had to do with the far left's idea of what the flag represents? Many of the things that you all claim is wrong with this country have been happening long before George W took over.

And please stop acting like Obama is the savior for the country, that he will have some magical power to "Redeem" what you determine is a tainted flag. The rest of the world will continue to hate America for the war until one of their friends are killed by terrorists.

If obama really does change the way things are done drastically enough then like terdferguson i will gladly eat my words. I just don't see it happening

10/30/2008 6:35:52 PM

I'll bet you can't wait to burn it

10/31/2008 7:08:44 AM

only religious fanatics burn flags.

Im too indifferent to care about that kinda stuff.

10/31/2008 9:06:58 AM

joe_schmoe

typical.

10/31/2008 4:40:32 PM

you take that back!

10/31/2008 6:03:11 PM

4 days left.

11/1/2008 12:59:38 AM

Your flag is almost here, schmoe:

11/3/2008 2:26:43 AM

^ I might have to make that the wallpaper on my phone...

11/3/2008 2:57:45 AM

11/3/2008 2:59:40 AM

Quote :

"You do realize that the conservatives of today believe in everything the founding fathers did. The founding fathers didn't believe in the constitution which hadn't been written yet. They believed in the principles which it was founded on. The formation of a new constitution was radical at the time. The radicals of that time are now the conservatives of todays time. It's not that hard to figure out."

This is a great post.

11/3/2008 9:03:09 AM

^^^^ oh yeah, that reminds me, hooksaw

Sears Portrait Studio called: your pictures are here








[Edited on November 3, 2008 at 12:47 PM. Reason : ]

11/3/2008 12:45:32 PM

for our country's sake, I hope that posters like joe_schmoe are correct that BO is the best thing since sliced bread. I hope that he rides in on his trusty steed and rescues us all from this lull we seemed to have fallen into. I will gladly eat my words if he does.

but, I just dont see it. I dont know who the man is...I only know what he has told us. the media has robbed us of a proper Obama vetting because they have been too busy cleaning up their splooge, rather than investigating him. I think there are going to be a lot of disappointed people who voted for BO 2 years down the road.

11/3/2008 1:51:10 PM

Quote :

"I hope that he rides in on his trusty steed and rescues us all from this lull we seemed to have fallen into."

PULL YOURSELF UP BY YOUR BOOTSTRAPS, MAN

11/3/2008 1:53:19 PM

Quote :

"for our country's sake, I hope that posters like joe_schmoe are correct that BO is the best thing since sliced bread."

The only thing you should be worried about with an Obama presidency is that he'll be Clinton 2.0, make the job look easy, and 8 years from now people will forget who the president is actually matters and make the same damn mistake they made in 2000.

In all honesty, the bar couldn't possibly be any lower. The chance that Obama disappoints is slim to none (that is, if you've already accepted that there is almost no way he gets the bulk of his progressive policies passed).

11/3/2008 2:06:40 PM

Quote :

"He's using motherfucker in the Samuel L sense of the word, not the derogatory sense."

11/3/2008 7:45:24 PM

Obama, Charlotte NC, 11/3/08:

Quote :

"North Carolina, we can prove we are more than a collection of states or a collection of individuals. We are a union – not perfect, but we can work to perfect it. That’s who we are. That’s the country we need to be right now. I know these are difficult times, but I know that we faced difficult times before. The American story’s never been about things coming easy. It’s been about rising to the moment when the moment was hard. It’s about rejecting fear and division for unity of purpose. That’s how we overcame those wars and great depressions. That’s how we won the great struggles for civil rights, and women’s right, and workers’ rights. That’s how we will write the next great chapter in the American story, and it can start in 24 hours, if you are ready. "

[Edited on November 3, 2008 at 10:55 PM. Reason : ]

11/3/2008 10:55:29 PM

ONE DAY LEFT

11/4/2008 5:04:07 PM

Quote :

"for our country's sake, I hope that posters like joe_schmoe are correct that BO is the best thing since sliced bread. I hope that he rides in on his trusty steed and rescues us all from this lull we seemed to have fallen into. I will gladly eat my words if he does. but, I just dont see it. I dont know who the man is...I only know what he has told us. the media has robbed us of a proper Obama vetting because they have been too busy cleaning up their splooge, rather than investigating him. I think there are going to be a lot of disappointed people who voted for BO 2 years down the road."

Ok, so you don't think Obama is the man to do it, but surely you aren't deluded enough to think McCain would be the better man for the economy right now.?

11/4/2008 5:08:57 PM

I'll bet you can't wait to burn it

11/4/2008 5:34:59 PM

It will always be more Joe's flag than yours.

Why?

He voted.

He fulfilled one of his responsibilities as a citizen.

[Edited on November 4, 2008 at 5:37 PM. Reason : ]

11/4/2008 5:37:21 PM

oooh, buuuuuuuurn.

11/4/2008 5:42:13 PM

http://mccainsevendays.ytmnd.com/

11/4/2008 5:42:26 PM

^^^ and, like many others here, i also served in the US military. so mainly, I -- and people like me -- are taking it back from mealy-mouthed GOP fanboi chickenhawks like burro and twista and eyedrb and all of their kind.

of course, you don't have to have served to own the flag, but if youre one of those who have been shoving it in the world's face as evidence of your own moral superiority ... whether you've served or not ... you've lost it. that game is over. in less than a day, it will be official.






[Edited on November 4, 2008 at 5:46 PM. Reason : ]

11/4/2008 5:42:48 PM

keep sucking that cock, joe.

11/4/2008 10:18:30 PM

Quote :

"-- are we a nation of xenophobic ultra-nationalists -- are we a nation of intolerant bigots and religious extremists -- are we invaders and occupiers of sovereign nations -- are we ruled by fear and division -- are we going to sink further into paranoid us-versus-them tribalistic isolation -- are we anti-intellectuals who shun scientific discovery -- are we a nation that spies on our citizens and tortures our enemies"

Well gee now, too bad Obama and Biden are winning this thing, no?

11/4/2008 10:23:35 PM

and your point is what?

11/4/2008 10:27:07 PM

You tell me. Is Joe Biden a vociferous critic of the Iraq War... oh wait, no.

How about rule by fear and paranoia? Ah, sucks, PATRIOT Act. Again and again.

But warrantless wiretapping, we're totally good on that one, right? Obama or Biden, right? No?

Well shucks. Guess maybe those things aren't so important after all, are they?

11/4/2008 10:31:05 PM