Miatae and e30's seem like the ticket for low budget racing. Neither is particularly fast, but they can be made to handle like a dream on a relatively low budget and they have enough power to spin the tires if you really want to. If you want to go fast then it's going to cost you.

The S2000 is great, but no track is going to let you hit the tarmac in a drop top without a cage. There are only a few cages available and very few people actually want to hack up the car to put one in. The feeling is very different on a $5k Miata and there are tons of bolt in cage options out there that can be removed without leaving any noticeable damage.

Besides, cheap cars are a great way to really learn how to make a car handle and it's no big loss if you dent a fender or crack a grill. If you show up in a Viper and look like a n00b everyone is just going to laugh at you for having more money than skills.

10/31/2008 4:35:42 PM

Well, tracking is part of the equation (and a consideration for me, personally), but not the only factor. Wheel-to-wheel racing is probably not really what anyone in this thread is focused on.

...but yeah, the roll bar issue is a problem for the S2000. Last I checked, some places (CMP? maybe Roebling Road. def not VIR) would allow you to track it without a bar. That may have changed in the last couple of years...but yeah, there aren't a ton of options, and they are all compromised to fit around the soft top and center console (either that or require you to gut the car). At best, they all (to my knowledge) require at least hacking up interior trim and stuff.

Quote :

"If you show up in a Viper and look like a n00b everyone is just going to laugh at you for having more money than skills. "

That is part of the reason I plan for my next sports car to be something more modest than, say, a C6. I think I'm a pretty good driver, but not good enough that, say, an S2000 or 330i would not be enough for me to learn more with on the track. I want to track the hell out of my next car (that was the intent when I bought the Evo, but then I got sued, and my finances are just now recovering).

The other reason is that I'll still probably be deploying a lot for the next couple of years. When you're spending nearly half your time away from home, it's hard to justify spending a bunch on a car, even if you have enough socked away to pay cash for essentially anything you want (ironically, largely as a result of never being home to actually use it). I'm thinking $10-15k on the next one...save the money until I'm in a position in my life and with enough track experience to actually justify a C6, or Viper, or 911, etc.

[Edited on October 31, 2008 at 4:50 PM. Reason : asdfadsasf]

10/31/2008 4:44:35 PM

Quote :

"as i said above, a z51 or zo6 c5 is "track ready" in stock form. while the cars you mentioned can be bought cheaper, by the time you bring them up to the level of a c5 you've easily invested $15k if not more. then, you're also left with a car that's a pain in the ass to deal with on the street."

I have seen at least 4 Turbo Miata's, FULLY track prepped on sale for under 8k. Upgraded suspension, roll cage, and plenty of track time already under the belt.

I think this is really about affordability brackets, best bang for your buck depends on how much buck you got.

I think theres the sub 10k people

The sub 25k people

and the 50k+ guys.

---------------

FYI, for what its worth. I ran my first HPDE with about 15 NSX's in every condition imagineable. Except for the race-car (not at all street legal) and the two tuneshop cars (From Driving Ambition, running 390 and 420hp), none of them were faster than the Lotus, and all of them got spanked by a BONE STOCK 350Z

10/31/2008 4:51:14 PM

^you're talking about a mostly dedicated track car. i don't think that's what this thread is about, at least not totally. besides, even IF these "full prepped" turbo miatas happen to be faster around a road course/auto-x than a c5, they're still going to get murdered in straight line acceleration and comfort/practicality of street driving. not to mention reliability issues with a heavily modified car, etc. and the list goes on...

10/31/2008 5:06:18 PM

Yeah, like I said earlier on in the thread, im making the assumption that we are talking about a track car.

If this is a street car + a little track action, it's an entirely different discussion. My own opinion, which is moving more and more this way, is that it's better to have one car for the track, and one for the road.

10/31/2008 5:20:02 PM

Quote :

"it's better to have one car for the track, and one for the road."

definitely. i learned a long time ago it's better to just have purpose built vehicles for whatever you're into and a daily driver also. trying to build an "all around" vehicle usually just ends up with something that's okay for everything but isn't stellar at anything.

10/31/2008 5:31:03 PM

yeah, that's a good way to go for most people, assuming they can afford multiple cars.

For me, it's tough enough to talk myself into buying a car and a truck. 2 cars and a truck is totally out of the question, at least for the next couple of years.

...Although the C6 (if you only need 2 seats) and the Evo (if you are ok with overall lack of refinement in any way) are pretty good daily drivers while being awfully damned performance focused.

[Edited on October 31, 2008 at 5:49 PM. Reason : asdfads]

10/31/2008 5:39:42 PM

man, nowadays just about every car has a series. so really, its whatever you're into.

shoooot.. my integra is a very good competitor. damn thing rolls on track, heavily.

on the street its as economical as a civic powR.

but we're talkin' sports cars here

10/31/2008 5:41:14 PM

Eh, until you're actually racing (not really even then) there's no way to judge how well a car does from an HPDE. I've lapped a 997 GT3 RS in my M3 on street tires, what does that tell you? Absolutely nothing. I've also passed more than one Z06 in the instructor group that was on race tires, in a bone stock type R, what does that tell you, again nothing insert -baonest -->TYPE R RULESZZZ!!! Sometimes people take cool down laps while on track, sometimes they don't want to push that hard, or what have you. I'd hate to have somebody in a 350z think that they "passed an m3" when I was driving in a lower group to show a student something...

10/31/2008 5:42:46 PM

Quote :

"baonest -->TYPE R RULESZZZ!!! "

lol

ahmet speaks the truth.

ONLY ABOUT THE TYPE R THOUGH.

10/31/2008 5:46:52 PM

^^There were only about 20 of us over the two days. So we all talked to one another.

It wasn't a case of one guy cooling down, while another guy is running a hot lap. Running with the same 5-6 guys over 9 sessions over two days, and talking afterwards, you get an idea of the capabilities of the cars.

What really cemented it though was the instructor feedback. Several instructors switched out of their NSX's to try the elise's/exige's there, and all of them were amazed how much more fun the Lotus' were to drive. That said, the NSX is a pretty awesome daily driving sports car and damn they are beautiful. And the race car NSX was UNBELIEVABLE.

10/31/2008 6:19:28 PM

Quote :

"The S2000 is great, but no track is going to let you hit the tarmac in a drop top without a cage. There are only a few cages available and very few people actually want to hack up the car to put one in. The feeling is very different on a $5k Miata and there are tons of bolt in cage options out there that can be removed without leaving any noticeable damage."

The bar isnt that bad and its inexpensive. It's not a 5k miata but i see 13-14k year 2000 s2000s all day long.

No lotus or nsx can make a "bang for buck" thread. Isn't a lotus the least amount of car per dollar you can buy?


[Edited on October 31, 2008 at 6:31 PM. Reason : 33k used for a toyota celica engine, thanks but no thanks]

10/31/2008 6:30:55 PM

didnt underPSI get his nsx for cheap?

[Edited on October 31, 2008 at 6:35 PM. Reason : I think 20k? ]

Quote :

"Cobalt SS"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UoeljmWtR8

[Edited on October 31, 2008 at 6:38 PM. Reason : ]

10/31/2008 6:34:59 PM

If you buy a 1992 with 100k miles owned by javier yeah an NSX is great bang for your buck.

the same logic could be applied to the lotus....14 years from now. they did sell them in orange, juan loves orange.

10/31/2008 6:39:26 PM

^^ I got the impression when he was posting about it that he got a $30k car for $20k or something. A good deal, but not "cheap".

You can definitely buy a new car every year at a "steal" of a price and resell it a year later for break even. In the long run you'll end up driving nice cars and basically paying nothing except interest on the and consumables. It is a lot of work, but it can be fun too for people who enjoy cars.

10/31/2008 7:10:52 PM

that's been roughly my approach

it's not work to me, though. the real limiting factor is paying tax and fees every time you title and register a car. I actually turn profits (though I lost a few hundred bucks on the Evo if you factor in tax).

and $20k for a nice NSX is a great deal...for an NSX. it in no way represents any sort of bang for the buck.

[Edited on October 31, 2008 at 7:18 PM. Reason : asdfad]

10/31/2008 7:15:58 PM

I mean, I have no idea what he paid for it, but that's the impression I got at the time.

10/31/2008 7:22:51 PM

Quote :

"You can definitely buy a new car every year at a "steal" of a price and resell it a year later for break even. In the long run you'll end up driving nice cars and basically paying nothing except interest on the and consumables. It is a lot of work, but it can be fun too for people who enjoy cars."

What kind of cars don't take a first year depreciation hit?

10/31/2008 7:23:33 PM

not brand new

(although the Evo was less than 1 year old, and only had 7k miles. I bought for $26k from a dealer, sold for $26.5 about 15 months later with 27k miles.)

10/31/2008 7:30:00 PM

^^Sorry didnt mean to derail the thread Quinn. I wasn't making any comparison in this thread for Lotus or an NSX. I was just letting theDuke know they aren't quite what they seem to be on the track, but they are really good DD's.

I'd definitely never put the Lotus up on the bang for the buck scale when we are talking pure performance.

10/31/2008 7:49:16 PM

[Edited on October 31, 2008 at 8:07 PM. Reason : ass]

10/31/2008 8:05:20 PM

NSX's give me at least a semi, but I wouldn't even entertain the idea of spending C6 money on a 15 year old NSX.

[Edited on October 31, 2008 at 8:09 PM. Reason : ^ one of the most perfect all-around cars ever made, but not big bang for the buck, performance wise]

10/31/2008 8:07:56 PM

yeah luxury cruisers with book shelves for a back seat dont count!

10/31/2008 8:12:28 PM

the only bang for the buck sports car I've even seen in this thread

Quote :

"Miata (especially the force fed variety)"

you can a decent example of the right years ('94-'95 being the correct answer) for like 3k, it'll handle like it's on rails on the stock skinnies even and you can get a good year of amusement out of it as a go-kart, then budget another 4k for mods and it will be smoking pretty much anything else mentioned in this thread at that price point (particularly as half the cars in this thread wouldn't even be in drivable condition at that price point)

really anything in the vein of late 80s/early 90s compact sports car, I-4, or V/I-6 with good weight distribution, RWD, and workable suspension: Z-cars, RX-7, MR2, etc, just boost it and go! Miatas seem to offer one of the better price/performance ratios in that class and take particularly well to forced induction, but they're all reasonable choices imo.

[Edited on October 31, 2008 at 9:03 PM. Reason : .]

10/31/2008 8:56:30 PM

You can tell me about talking to the owners, driving on track all you want. I guarantee you that somebody else can step into a car at ANY HPDE in anything below advanced solo, or actual time trials, and turn in a 5 second quicker time. I raced with a guy once who in 8 years of wheel to wheel racing has not had a 4 off. At Road Atlanta, I was 6 seconds faster than this dude. Does that mean his engine swapped RX7 is a 6 second slower car than my stock M3? Of course not, it means the guy has a different priority set than mine when he's on track. As for instructor compliments, all organizations I've ran with push instructors to compliment cars, specifically so we don't come across as meanie heads. How would you feel if an instructor stepped into your car and said "yeah, I can't believe there's idiots paying this much $ for a POS little lotus, oh and you can't drive worth a crap either". I don't have anything against the loti, I don't have a strong feeling on the car, except I think it's great that they make and sell them. Kind of like the Viper, I'm glad it exists, I have no interest in owning one.

C5, S2k, Miata, e30, e36 represent good values, at different price points. If you want to modify and look at power to weight, why stop at a miata, get a DSM, or an engine swapped Civic with a turbo. There are good reasons why you don't see many of the latter on actual race tracks...

10/31/2008 10:21:22 PM

look, there really is not real answer to any of these Q's..

if you have the ability to mod a car, any car CAN be the best bang for buck.

if you're talking off the lot (no mods), then yeah, you're limited to some cars.

quit posting all of this BS.

this thread needs to be locked.

11/1/2008 1:09:41 AM

Quote :

"an engine swapped Civic with a turbo"

k24 swap eg hatch!!!1 2000lbs with me in it!

11/1/2008 8:12:44 AM

e36 M3.......and by bang I mean the banging of the rear subframe ejecting out of the car, or the bang of pistons slapping valves

11/1/2008 10:21:13 AM

haa

11/1/2008 10:29:59 AM

just in case somebody missed this:

Quote :

"1990 Eagle Talon Tsi AWD"

11/1/2008 11:36:15 AM

Quote :

"I raced with a guy once who in 8 years of wheel to wheel racing has not had a 4 off. At Road Atlanta, I was 6 seconds faster than this dude. Does that mean his engine swapped RX7 is a 6 second slower car than my stock M3? Of course not, it means the guy has a different priority set than mine when he's on track. As for instructor compliments, all organizations I've ran with push instructors to compliment cars, specifically so we don't come across as meanie heads. How would you feel if an instructor stepped into your car and said "yeah, I can't believe there's idiots paying this much $ for a POS little lotus, oh and you can't drive worth a crap either"."

Again, you think what you want, I'm just telling you the overall impressions from our group. Also sounds like you run with some douchey organizations. I'd much rather an instructor be honest with me up front than try and pacify me out of my money. That's not the impression I got *at all* from the crowd I ran with. Difference of opinion I suppose.

11/3/2008 4:44:28 AM

what about the WRX or the earlier nissan SE-R's, 240's

no love for Nissans and Subarus I guessss

11/3/2008 1:31:28 PM

lol.. ahmet has ran with more groups than everyone in the garage combined.

and he's right.... something ive been saying/thinking all along.

you can outdrive the person, not the car. i ran a STI on a round-about with my civic. does that mean my civic is faster?

well yeah, my civic is.. but still...

[Edited on November 3, 2008 at 2:16 PM. Reason : ]

11/3/2008 2:15:24 PM

a 1999 or 2000 Impreza 2.5 RS would make for a VERY nice investment for rally/auto cross. $5k can get you one in great shape and <100k miles.

My friend picked one up and I'm kinda envious at how much fun he has with AWD...

[Edited on November 3, 2008 at 2:20 PM. Reason : .]

11/3/2008 2:20:16 PM

^^I agree that the man makes the car. There were 5 Lotus' out there. 4 of them (all but mine) were driven by guys who ALSO brought an NSX. There was a lot of swapping that went on between drivers and cars, and I've already let loose the commentary on what was the consensus "more fun". This is all internet arguing, so it's completely pointless. I know what I saw, I know who I talked to, and I'm fine with the fact he/you don't believe it.

11/3/2008 3:55:28 PM

Yes, you own a Lotus. I think everyone understands now.

11/3/2008 4:08:49 PM

Quote :

"In C&D last month in their VIR track test it beat out the Evo, STI, 135i, and many others."

I hate to say it but there really isn't much in terms of performance that won't beat the new Evo X. that thing should be crushed at the local junk yard.

11/3/2008 4:52:03 PM

Quote :

"...but yeah, the roll bar issue is a problem for the S2000. Last I checked, some places (CMP? maybe Roebling Road. def not VIR) would allow you to track it without a bar."

When I was at Roebling Road S2000s were allowed without rollcages, of course that was 4 yrs ago so I dunno if they changed that.

11/3/2008 4:53:04 PM

Quote :

"I JUST WANT BANG BANG BANG"

11/3/2008 9:23:28 PM

i lol'd

11/3/2008 9:27:09 PM

while i've been a critic of the 350z from day 1, i wonder if there's a case for it to be included here IF you're intent on doing HPDEs, simply because of the necessity of the ordeal involved in putting a roll bar into an S2000 or Boxster? If you just want a backroad burner, the S2000 is more car for less money, in my opinion.

Of course, the 350z is still against the C5 at the mid-teens price point, which is a losing proposition.


I would be sold on a C5, except that I suspect that I'll end up with a C6 in a couple of years when I'm done deploying for a little while and in a position to justify spending more money (although by then, the C6 will be a little dated, and i'll have even more money to throw at this, so who knows...Porsche Turbo? Viper? Something else ridiculous?) Going from a C5 to a C6 just isn't my style...I know me, and I know how I get tired of stuff and like to change things up.

[Edited on November 4, 2008 at 7:35 PM. Reason : asfd]

11/4/2008 7:33:50 PM

viper

bbr said they were in the high 20's if you look for good deals for the late 90's model years. i know around 99 they switched to cast internals vs forged (according to BigDane i believe was his name when I was looking at them)..but I test drove two and they were f'ing nasty.

11/4/2008 7:48:57 PM

^^

Just put the bar in dude, its not that bad. I hope you're not near 6' tall though!

Are you in raleigh? If you're interested in the outcome and how chopped up it looks I would be happy to show you. It will lower the value of the vehicle but if you wanted you could easily remove all traces. I dont really care about the value as I never viewed it as more then entertainment.

11/5/2008 8:16:02 PM

nah, i'm not near 6' tall (5'8"), and I'm not near Raleigh (Iraq).

I might check your install out when I get back home, though. I do care about resale value, because there's a good chance I'd only keep the car for 10 months, then sell it the next time I deploy. In any case, I wouldn't be likely to keep it a super long time.

11/6/2008 1:23:03 PM