I have heard nothing but bad things about the SA80 and the L85A2 from Brits.

11/19/2008 1:34:45 AM

the M-14 is a good rifle, but the M16/4 family is vastly superior as an overall service weapon.

11/19/2008 1:43:31 AM

I have heard bad things about the SA-80 but not the L85A2. Similar design flaws/ growing pains they had when developing the M16.



Steyr AUG would be a similar weapon though a bit radical for our tastes.

I would say something with interchangeable components like the HK G36 would be best. A weapon that hardly, if ever jams.



Switch mags and you have a SAW



[Edited on November 19, 2008 at 1:49 AM. Reason : .]

11/19/2008 1:47:53 AM

^I always liked the AUG. A really beautiful looking weapon, very futuristic even though its like 15 yrs old now. I doubt that would ever be on the US force since it's not a very versatile weapons platform. HK does have that going with their systems.

11/19/2008 1:57:19 AM

Gonna take the snotty high road for a second:

Lots of uninformed opinions in this thread. Just because something looked good in COD4 doesn't make it a good weapon.

XM8 is out, a test bed of shooters from the 82nd already voted it out.
The M-14 is gone, it's not coming back, except in a limited role.
The SA50 blows, very notorious

etc etc. The US Army is not switching back to 7.62 get that out of your head. The two best choices for the switch are The ACR and the HK416, but I don't foresee this happening until after GWOT is over.

SMU shooters are using the 416, and thus far they have been the frontrunner for all Big Army changes; see MCH Helmet and ACU.

[Edited on November 19, 2008 at 2:44 AM. Reason : addendum]

11/19/2008 2:42:30 AM

The stats of the XM8 looked promising although but ugly and bulky as shit. When they were developing it, the FN F2000 was pretty much the same damn thing for 2/3 the cost and a sexier weapon. The F2000 would be on my list of "neat firearm to own" but it was used more a tech demo/marketing ploy than an actual firearm platform. They did sell a few of them to special forces team all over the place.

11/19/2008 2:52:30 AM

The F2000 has to be the bulkiest, most ridiculous looking gun I have ever seen.

[Edited on November 19, 2008 at 3:12 AM. Reason : I realize it's not that large, but it just looks like they added on as much plastic as possible]

11/19/2008 3:10:53 AM

The XM8 though was apparently a pretty reliable gun.

Quote :

"In July 2007, the US Army announced a limited competition between the M4 carbine, FN SCAR, HK416, and the previously-shelved HK XM8. Ten examples of each of the four competitors were involved. Each weapon was fired for 6,000 rounds in an "extreme dust environment." The purpose of the shootoff was for assessing future needs, not to select a replacement for the M4. The XM8 scored the best, with only 127 stoppages in 60,000 total rounds, the FN SCAR Light had 226 stoppages, while the HK416 had 233 stoppages. The M4 carbine scored "significantly worse" than the rest of the field with 882 stoppages."

11/19/2008 10:51:06 AM

the only stoppages I've had with the M4 were with blanks, I've never had a jam on the two-way range, thank god.

Weapon maintenance and care go a long way.

11/19/2008 11:15:00 AM

Quote :

"The F2000 has to be the bulkiest, most ridiculous looking gun I have ever seen."

Have you seen the HK XM29? Heh. talk about bulkiest, most ridiculous looking gun ever. At least the FN is sexier. Honestly, the XM8 and the F2000 both look pretty "plasticy". The F2000's design is based off of the p90 so it shares some resemblance. The XM8 looks more of toy than a gun compared to the F2000.

XM29


XM8


F2000

11/19/2008 6:29:15 PM

because when you're up against a few dozen radical muslims willing to die for allah, you want a gun that looks cool.

11/19/2008 6:32:40 PM

you do realize there's an emotional response to the type and look of a weapon. The AK-47 is a culture symbol of power and fear. If you use a weapon that "plays the part" it's an additional boost to moral.

Besides, what killed the XM29 wasn't it's performance, it was it's bulkiness and ugly look. Having an essentially a 20mm canon in each squad is an ambitious proposition. The XM8 and F2000 both employ simple and ergonomic designs, plus being very light weight.

11/19/2008 6:56:38 PM

REINSTATE THE M14



GOD HERSELF HANDED THE M14 DOWN FROM HEAVEN, YEA, TO THE AMERICAN MILITARY.



NEVER, WILL THERE BE A REPLACEMENT









and when you run out of ammo, you can use it as a castle gate breaching mechanism

11/19/2008 7:00:14 PM

fuck that, I'm waiting for a portable rail based weapons system. I want to be able to shoot a projectile 36 miles away.

11/19/2008 7:01:48 PM

there's no romance in that

11/19/2008 7:09:18 PM

I would be hesitant to go with a bullpup, thats a lot of bang really close to your grill.

11/19/2008 7:15:17 PM

M468 FTW
Already being used in many SF units.
Thread over

11/19/2008 8:04:48 PM

Quote :

"Bring back the M-14"

THEY HAVE SON. IT'S BEING USED A LOT FOR SNIPING APPARENTLY.

^ YEP.

11/19/2008 8:06:33 PM

god never made a finer rifle

[Edited on November 19, 2008 at 8:26 PM. Reason : dfg]

11/19/2008 8:25:04 PM

xm8 got axed for several reasons, a small part to be sure lies in the situation with HK for whatever stupid reason.... I still think their g36 system would be ideal... but i digress

11/19/2008 8:25:15 PM

that's how i roll

11/19/2008 8:31:01 PM

AND BTW GUYS, AS WAS POINTED OUT THE OTHER DAY BY R. LEE ERMEY, THE 5.56MM ROUND IS PART OF A WEAPONS SYSTEM DESIGNED TO BE A "FORCE MULTIPLIER."

THE THOUGHT BEING THAT WOUNDING SOMEONE TAKES AN AVERAGE OF 3 PEOPLE OUT OF THE FIGHT ON AVERAGE WHEREAS KILLING SOMEONE INSTANTLY/QUICKLY ONLY TAKES 1 PERSON OUT OF THE FIGHT. IN SOME WAYS I DON'T THINK THAT PHILOSOPHY IS AS APPROPRIATE IN THE CURRENT SITUATIONS WE'RE IN AS IT MIGHT BE IN MORE "TRADITIONAL" STYLE COMBAT. BUT, OF COURSE, I DON'T KNOW THAT FOR SURE.

OTHER PROBLEMS WITH BIG, NASTY ROUNDS LIKE THE 7.62MM NATO ARE THAT ON FULL AUTO THE FIREARM BECOMES VERY DIFFICULT TO CONTROL. YOU GIVE UP A LOT OF AMMUNITION STORAGE CAPACITY BY GOING TO THE 7.62x51MM AS WELL AS SIGNIFICANTLY DECREASED MAGAZINE CAPACITY. THE M14 IS ALSO A RATHER HEAVY WEAPON.

11/19/2008 8:32:01 PM

SEIGE OF FIREBASE GLORIA

11/19/2008 8:33:29 PM

OMG, I CAN'T TELL IF WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE SAME THINGS NOW THAT EVERYTHING IS IN CAPS!!!

11/19/2008 8:36:42 PM

heavy is not generally good...

but i am a proponent of using mixed ammo. each round has it's place in a given situation.
6.5 and 6.8 are interesting compromises between the light and heavy variants

should be interesting to see how that works out....

11/19/2008 8:36:52 PM

Quote :

"THEY HAVE SON. IT'S BEING USED A LOT FOR SNIPING APPARENTLY."

there are 2 versions, the urban warfare version and the longer range version. I can look up the acronnyms... but id rather you take my word.

Both are very solid at thier missions, but their mission is not act as a front line AR.

11/19/2008 8:39:47 PM

I KNOW THERE ARE AT LEAST TWO MARKSMAN VERSIONS BUT I THINK THE EMR (ENHANCED MARKSMAN RIFLE) IS THE MOST PURPOSE BUILT VERSION OF THE M-14.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M39_Enhanced_Marksman_Rifle


YEP, THE OTHER IS THE DMR, (DESIGNATED MARKSMAN RIFLE).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Marine_Corps_Designated_Marksman_Rifle


YOU'RE PROBABLY THINKING OF THE MOD 0 EBR (ENHANCED BATTLE RIFLE) ACCORDING TO WIKI.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy_Mark_14_Mod_0_Enhanced_Battle_Rifle

11/19/2008 8:40:53 PM

I was under the impression that having the ammo behind the grip allowed for a longer barrel in a shorter weapon allowing for compact light weight and still has all the accuracy.

It seems the ultimate rifle should have this.

Maybe just not one made yet.

11/19/2008 9:31:42 PM

Quote :

"I was under the impression that having the ammo behind the grip allowed for a longer barrel in a shorter weapon allowing for compact light weight and still has all the accuracy. It seems the ultimate rifle should have this. Maybe just not one made yet."

Barrel length has nothing to do with accuracy.

The bullpup's idea is compactness. Compactness usually = speed in tight situations.
But, bullpup = stupid rear heavy balance that really sucks for accurate shooting and IMO gives shitty handling.

11/19/2008 11:30:07 PM

AND YOUR HANDS ARE TOO CLOSE TOGETHER. WHEN I'VE HANDLED "BULLPUP" STYLE RIFLES I'VE ALWAYS FELT LIKE I HAVE NO ABILITY TO APPLY A TORQUE TO THE WEAPON BECAUSE MY HANDS ARE CLOSE TOGETHER AND BOTH OF THEM ARE IN FRONT OF MOST OF THE FIREARM'S MASS.

THIS LEADS TO A FEELING OF SHITTY HANDLING FOR ME AS WELL. I DON'T LIKE THE DESIGN PERSONALLY, BUT THEY ARE COMPACT IN TERMS OF HOW FAR THEY STICK OUT IN FRONT OF YOU FOR A GIVEN BARREL LENGTH.

11/19/2008 11:32:47 PM

11/19/2008 11:35:01 PM

Quote :

"Barrel length has nothing to do with accuracy."

I think that's just a bad statement all together. There's a correlation with accuracy and barrel length, to a point. Like everything else in the world, there's in optimal length with the proper type of ammunition.

I do agree that the bullpup idea is a good one, but as Fumbler mentioned, the balance of the firearm is shifted to the back. It would even out if a 40mm grenade launcher was attached. I don't think handling and accuracy is the same thing. They compliment each other, but accuracy is more on the mechanical elements with handling on the precision or repeatability of said weapon in certain conditions, plus there's the human factor in both.

When bullpup designed weapons started to gain strength, a down side that it was right handed only. Since the action was on pretty much on the stock/butt of the gun, it could be a hazard if not handled properly when firing, such as firing from the hip or other awkward positions. Ejected cartridges usually exited on the right so you couldn't do suppressive fire left handed, which can be important in urban combat such as covering a corner while increasing your coverage towards the enemy.

[Edited on November 20, 2008 at 12:48 PM. Reason : ]

11/20/2008 12:46:37 PM

Quote :

"I think that's just a bad statement all together. There's a correlation with accuracy and barrel length, to a point. Like everything else in the world, there's in optimal length with the proper type of ammunition."

No, it is a true statement. Barrel length does not affect accuracy.
Barrel harmonics, concentricity, bore consistentcy, chamber fit, muzzle uniformity, and freebore affect accuracy.

Barrel length does affect harmonics, but to a much lesser degree than the effect of any of the other factors on accuracy.
To have an accurate rifle you need a barrel that flexes exactly the same way each time it's fired. You can take two identical barrel blanks. Cut one long at one of the harmonic nodes and one short at a closer node. They will both be accurate.

The biggest impact length has is on VELOCITY. Longer barrels can make more use of expanding gases. More use of expanding gases = more pressure for a longer period of time = more velocity.
There is definately an optimal point where the barrel length gives the highest velocities.

The only arguements you could make where barrel length = accuracy is in practical use.
If you have a sight on the end of a barrel then yes, a longer barrel will have more practical accuracy because your sight radius is longer.
If you're offhand shooting then yes, a longer barrel (with more weight/balance forward) will help dampen the affects of your body movement and give you more practical accuracy (this is why bullpups suck)

11/20/2008 2:46:15 PM

I was thinking with extreme cases like comparing a pistol barrel vs. a rifle barrel using the same type of ammunition. There's always that "effective" range of accuracy for each weapon which you touched on with velocity.

11/20/2008 3:52:01 PM

There are many pistols that will shoot along side rifles in accuracy.
I know a few guys who can print 2" groups at 100 yards with 8" barreled revolvers.
Guys shooting smallbore rifle cartridges in Contenders and Encores can do a lot better.

So...barrel length doesn't directly factor into accuracy. But yeah, it is generally easier to shoot accurately with longer barrels.

11/20/2008 5:39:29 PM

Stoner action 7.62

the end

11/20/2008 5:43:13 PM

Maybe they should just go back to basics

11/21/2008 5:42:51 PM

StG44!

11/21/2008 5:45:11 PM