Well, you certainly don't strike me as someone who simply "believes to belong", nor someone who will explain away everything with the "faith" default. I wish you nothing but luck on your spiritual journey.

12/21/2008 10:21:14 AM

Haha, this guy actually used Pascal's wager.

Here we go again!

Spontaneous, do you have a bunker installed in your home to save yourself from nuclear attack? Because although the likelihood of nuclear attack is very small, the outcome of one if you're not prepared would be disastrous.

Event: Nuclear attack
No bunker? Horrible, horrible death.
Bunker? You live!

Event: No Nuclear attack
No bunker? Nothing happens.
Bunker? You're short a little cash, but nothing happens.

Using Pascal's wager, there's no reason why you should not have a bunker to save yourself from nuclear attack! After all, Pascal's Wager tells you that you should bank on the one with the greatest payoff and the greatest losses.

We can apply this to [any rare scenario, including the existence of God] to show how wrong an argument like that is.

12/21/2008 1:43:42 PM

dude idk that triangle shit he did was pretty genius. i'd trust him

I'm Big Business and i approved this message.

12/21/2008 2:14:45 PM

Quote :

" All kinds of organizations you can join that don't involve faking, ignoring, forgetting, or otherwise subjugating the things you actually believe."

What organizations are you talking about?

Because I can't think of any organization that tries to bring families together for plays and potluck dinners, while telling them to be better people (in between telling them they're better than everyone else, and science is evil).

12/21/2008 2:18:49 PM

like 33% of churches are bullshit, 33% were just bullshit and have calmed down, and the other 33% are about to be bullshit in a few weeks. so good luck

I'm Big Business and i approved this message.

12/21/2008 2:24:00 PM

^thats some good shit right there

but when i steal it i'm going to change "weeks" to "years"

thank you big business

12/21/2008 2:36:44 PM

i mean i like the idea of church and all and they would work if members regularly cycled between different churches, but you can't keep the same people in the same groups for extended periods of times without drama of some form eventually raining down.

if i was religious it would just be a personal thing.

I'm Big Business and i approved this message.

12/21/2008 3:05:00 PM

wow this thread got big fast

ugly I am seeing someone, she and I both want to do this, I'm just asking around. I'm also not really sure why you asked that unless you think i'm gay or awkward or something, idk.



JCASHFAN Obviously I go to church to talk about and praise God, but at the same time I think most anyone would agree that a good community you can identify with is important in a church. Don't make it sound like a bad thing. I would hope that if you attend church yourself you really enjoy the people around you, or perhaps the Minister gives good sermons, idk. (Yes Ministers can give shitty sermons and no you are not a sinner if you don't like them).

Quote :

" if push came to shove, many would disavow in a heartbeat."

I would disagree but if it does happen, then it's because we're human and it could happen at any church. Even my parents where 90% of the people there are over 75 and have belonged there all their lives.



I'm really just looking for a good Church with a community of people that I'd like to meet and would enjoy hanging out with both in and outside of church. I'd like to become more involved in volunteering for the community as well.

As far as my personal relationship with God I am very comfortable with that, so really I'm looking to improve my connections with others. No big deal.


I talked to my girl today and told her about the Hope Church on Buck Jones. Apparently she has a friend that already goes there, so I think we're gonna start attending that church. Thanks for everyone's suggestions!


everybody cool now?

12/21/2008 3:15:02 PM

Quote :

"i mean i like the idea of church and all and they would work if members regularly cycled between different churches, but you can't keep the same people in the same groups for extended periods of times without drama of some form eventually raining down. if i was religious it would just be a personal thing. I'm Big Business and i approved this message. "

that's not just church. That's people.

12/21/2008 3:16:07 PM

well other than doors and a steeple, what else is church?

12/21/2008 3:23:02 PM

Quote :

"Obviously I go to church to talk about and praise God, but at the same time I think most anyone would agree that a good community you can identify with is important in a church."

Setting aside the fact that I can no longer fit God into the world I observe on a daily basis . . .

You would not worship God by getting together with a generally homogeneous crowd for an hour on Sunday morning, dressing up, singing comfortable songs, and feeling good about your "personal relationship with your savior".

When you really worship God is when you go out into the uncomfortable world and, in the words of St. Francis of Assisi, "Preach the Gospel at all times. When necessary, use words."

It may just be me, but when I see a "Greg Laurie" bumper sticker on a Lexus, or my mom tells me that she and my dad are thinking about moving into a "gated Christian community," I can't help but think that American Christians are completely missing the point by confusing Western-style capitalism and democracy with the teachings of a Palestinian Jew who spent most of his time with the rejects of society.

12/21/2008 3:50:37 PM

You're overthinking things. I'm just looking for a good church to attend.

12/21/2008 3:55:30 PM

and there, exactly, is my point.

12/21/2008 4:06:12 PM

Quote :

"Well, you certainly don't strike me as someone who simply "believes to belong", nor someone who will explain away everything with the "faith" default. I wish you nothing but luck on your spiritual journey."

God, your analogy is inherently flawed as you are comparing the finite vs. infinite, but since your name is God, I forgive you. Are you trying to convince me to give up faith or are you trying to reaffirm/reassess your beliefs?

12/21/2008 4:07:49 PM

^^^

12/21/2008 4:30:08 PM

There are seven churches written to in the last book of the Bible, you may decide which one you belong to.
http://www.persecution.com/
OR
http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/category/circus-church/

12/21/2008 4:51:54 PM

i see some atheists in here that are worse than hard core religious nuts.

srsly guys? this guy is looking for a church to go to. he's not trying to sway your beliefs.



[Edited on December 21, 2008 at 5:14 PM. Reason : tryt]

12/21/2008 5:12:11 PM

People go to church for a lot of reasons, I'm agnostic but I used to occasionally go to church w/ a friend because I like gospel music(even though they also did the whole speaking in tongues thing) ...and other than the speaking in tongues parts I liked the sermons. and I take "regular Christian" to mean that he isn't one of the wacky neo-con christians

12/21/2008 5:18:11 PM

^^I'm going to take that personally


I'm not arguing that he should abandon his beliefs. In fact, I'm encouraging him to explore them more deeply and shun the shallow interpretation of the Gospel that is so prevalent in modern American churches. Only good can come from a deeper interrogation of one's soul.


^ Neo-cons aren't necessarily Christian. Much of the Neo-con movement is driven not by Christians but by Zionist Jews. Either way, the materialistic bent of Neo-con philosophy is largely at odds with the aesthetic teachings of Jesus

12/21/2008 5:19:16 PM

^fair enough

i didn't mean it to be rude just seems like people are jumping down eachothers throat over something that if even if is completely untrue...if used in the right way is a great thing

but i pretty much agree with what you just posted



[Edited on December 21, 2008 at 5:22 PM. Reason : rtt]

12/21/2008 5:20:57 PM

^

12/21/2008 5:21:39 PM

vintage 21

12/21/2008 6:23:42 PM

Quote :

" It may just be me, but when I see a "Greg Laurie" bumper sticker on a Lexus, or my mom tells me that she and my dad are thinking about moving into a "gated Christian community," I can't help but think that American Christians are completely missing the point by confusing Western-style capitalism and democracy with the teachings of a Palestinian Jew who spent most of his time with the rejects of society."

i agree with that for the most part. and with that said i suggest

Quote :

"vintage 21"

12/21/2008 7:21:43 PM

Quote :

"your analogy is inherently flawed as you are comparing the finite vs. infinite, but since your name is God, I forgive you. Are you trying to convince me to give up faith or are you trying to reaffirm/reassess your beliefs?"

Do what? I don't understand what you mean by saying that I am comparing the "finite vs. infinite."

The purpose of Pascal's Wager is to argue that one should bank on God existing, because the penalties and rewards of his existence are much greater than the penalties and rewards of his lack of existence. Because of this, one should believe that he exists.

You can apply this to any scenario. You should wear your seatbelt when driving, because the payoffs of wearing it if you get into a car accident are much better than if you don't.

12/21/2008 8:09:02 PM

Vintage 21 - For a smaller crowd & mostly young - very approachable people, and honest (down to earth, where anyone with any religous background can understand) message.... I'd start here.....

Hope Community - VERY large (a lil too large for my taste) but great message, and the pastor is very honest - Pro: Podcasts on iTunes when you can't go or are out of town

North Raleigh Church of Christ on Falls of Neuse @ 540 - Down to earth, while keeping a lot of 'tradition'.... still leaving 'holier than thou' at the door.

Edenton Street Methodist - Largely Traditional, but still a good mix of youngin's.....




.......... It ALL depends on what is important to you.

[Edited on December 21, 2008 at 11:39 PM. Reason : ]

12/21/2008 11:37:21 PM

Quote :

"or my mom tells me that she and my dad are thinking about moving into a "gated Christian community,""

oh Christ, what a ridiculous idea.

12/22/2008 9:16:09 AM

Quote :

"unitarian universalist "

oh, and HAHA

12/22/2008 9:17:50 AM

Quote :

"just stick a spoon through your eye socket and hollow out your skull. same effect"

12/22/2008 10:40:50 AM

colonial baptist is a good church. very big
they renovated the place. looks good. they've got a eatery or whatever there too.

12/22/2008 1:03:30 PM

There are lots of places that bring families together for things like sports and plays, and encourage them to be better people.

PTAs, volunteer organizations and community centers come to mind.

You don't necessarily need to go to church to do these things.

12/22/2008 4:24:57 PM

Quote :

"You [sh]ould not worship God by getting together with a generally homogeneous crowd for an hour on Sunday morning, dressing up, singing comfortable songs, and feeling good about your "personal relationship with your savior". When you really worship God is when you go out into the uncomfortable world and, in the words of St. Francis of Assisi, "Preach the Gospel at all times. When necessary, use words." It may just be me, but when I see a "Greg Laurie" bumper sticker on a Lexus, or my mom tells me that she and my dad are thinking about moving into a "gated Christian community," I can't help but think that American Christians are completely missing the point by confusing Western-style capitalism and democracy with the teachings of a Palestinian Jew who spent most of his time with the rejects of society."

bingo. pretty much exactly how I feel as a Christian.

12/22/2008 4:35:15 PM

I'm been thinking the same thing for a while. Anyone been to Holy Trinity right by campus?

12/22/2008 5:14:54 PM

Quote :

"what a ridiculous idea."

i think its glorious

it keeps the nutty ones just as far away from me as i am from them

and hell, I'm a Christian, but the kind of folks who would even think of moving to a gated Christian-only community ain't my kinda folks

hell, just give `em mississippi and they can rename it Christissippi

12/22/2008 6:30:46 PM

Quote :

"Hope Community Church over on Buck Jones Rd"

I went there for a long time, and it was wonderful. I definitely recommend it.

I haven't been to church in a long time though - I guess I just lost my way...

12/26/2008 1:37:49 PM

Would anybody on here consider themselves a "secular humanitarian"? Charles Schulz was a hardcore Christian and then considered himself a secular humanitarian. I like the idea of good for the sake of good (bona gratis bonae), even if no one else does.

12/26/2008 8:44:07 PM

Quote :

"i see some atheists in here that are worse than hard core religious nuts. srsly guys? this guy is looking for a church to go to. he's not trying to sway your beliefs. "

Exactly. Please keep this from turning into the typical "Christians are hypocritical idiots that think they're better than everyone thread". With that said, Hope is a good local church, as well as the one I go to in Brier Creek called the Summit http://www.summitchurch.cc

12/26/2008 10:47:12 PM

yeah i've noticed some in here use an argument similar to 'if you aren't absolutely perfect and completely devoted to christianity than you are a hyprocrite and should be an athiest' and if you are completely devoted in every way, then you are crazy.

12/27/2008 2:38:18 PM

^^Yes, I also recommend the Summit. JD Greear is awesome as well.

12/27/2008 8:00:13 PM

Quote :

"Every religion is going to have people that take the religion too far and scare people away and other people will have churches that do relatively nothing. You have to realize you are dealing with humans here. 95% all of them are stupid."

EXACTLY! That post wins the thread.

If anyone is ever in Charlotte, you should come with me to Warehouse 242. I love it!

12/27/2008 8:13:57 PM

V-21 - Not so good...at least not for me.

12/28/2008 10:49:43 AM

Quote :

"unitarian universalist"

That's certainly not Christian. They're the depressing people who believe when you die you're just dirt and that's it.

12/29/2008 12:48:02 PM

Quote :

"your analogy is inherently flawed as you are comparing the finite vs. infinite, but since your name is God, I forgive you. Are you trying to convince me to give up faith or are you trying to reaffirm/reassess your beliefs?"

Quote :

"Do what? I don't understand what you mean by saying that I am comparing the "finite vs. infinite." The purpose of Pascal's Wager is to argue that one should bank on God existing, because the penalties and rewards of his existence are much greater than the penalties and rewards of his lack of existence. Because of this, one should believe that he exists. You can apply this to any scenario. You should wear your seatbelt when driving, because the payoffs of wearing it if you get into a car accident are much better than if you don't."

Saving your earthly life is a finite reward .... your life will end at some point no matter if you escape a nuclear bomb or not. Spending time and money on a bomb shelter is a finite cost. Therefor, in the big picture your profit ratio is finite:finite or 1:1. A push.

Gaining eternal life is an infinite gain. Dedicating your earthly life to God is a finite cost. You have one earthly life. however long it may be. but it will end. The gain is eternal life an infinte gain. Your profit ratio in this case is finite:infinity or 1:infinity. An infinitely superior mathematical probability.

Thats what the wager means

Also if you read carefully there is no mention of consequences. The only things being compared are rewards. (The idea that you might go to hell if you dont believe does not factor in)



[Edited on December 29, 2008 at 2:07 PM. Reason : .]

12/29/2008 1:59:46 PM

can you be a christian and NOT celebrate christmas?

12/29/2008 2:05:09 PM

you could easily not celebrate with a tree and all that jazz. but if you're a Christian it would be weird to not at least recognize the birth of Jesus

12/29/2008 2:08:37 PM

Quote :

"Gaining eternal life is an infinite gain. Dedicating your earthly life to God is a finite cost. You have one earthly life. however long it may be. but it will end. The gain is eternal life an infinte gain. Your profit ratio in this case is finite:infinity or 1:infinity. An infinitely superior mathematical probability. Thats what the wager means Also if you read carefully there is no mention of consequences. The only things being compared are rewards. (The idea that you might go to hell if you dont believe does not factor in)"

What about people who never discover the Christian God? Do they still get into heaven? If so, doesn't this negate your "finite" cost?

If the "payment" is living a life, and the "reward" is eternal salvation, why don't we simply kill all babies as soon as they are born? If we know that they will get into heaven, since they are innocent and free of sin, who are we to force them to live a long life and delay their eternity in heaven?

12/29/2008 2:17:34 PM

^^ jesus wasn't born anywhere near december 25th

but back on topic, i consider myself a secular humanist, but there aren't any formally organized groups of people around here that meet on a weekly basis. there are some groups on meetup.com though.

12/29/2008 2:23:31 PM

Quote :

"Gaining eternal life is an infinite gain. Dedicating your earthly life to God is a finite cost. You have one earthly life. however long it may be. but it will end. The gain is eternal life an infinte gain. Your profit ratio in this case is finite:infinity or 1:infinity. An infinitely superior mathematical probability. Thats what the wager means Also if you read carefully there is no mention of consequences. The only things being compared are rewards. (The idea that you might go to hell if you dont believe does not factor in)"

Quote :

"What about people who never discover the Christian God? Do they still get into heaven? If so, doesn't this negate your "finite" cost? If the "payment" is living a life, and the "reward" is eternal salvation, why don't we simply kill all babies as soon as they are born? If we know that they will get into heaven, since they are innocent and free of sin, who are we to force them to live a long life and delay their eternity in heaven?"

You should read the wiki article. One of the drawbacks to the wager is that you must assume you follow the one true god. Pascal basically went with the Christian God because he deemed it most likely. Again the wager does not deal in consequences and does not factor in the case where god is believed to exist but a godly life is not lived. (believing in god but ignoring him or in your point believing the wrong god exists)

Other than that point the rest of your post does not make any sense. You cant kill all your babies and expect to survive as a species. Who cares if there is a god or not if there are no people left to care?


[Edited on December 29, 2008 at 2:46 PM. Reason : .]

12/29/2008 2:44:33 PM

nvm

[Edited on December 29, 2008 at 2:51 PM. Reason : ]

12/29/2008 2:50:36 PM

12/30/2008 1:51:23 PM

Quote :

"Who cares if there is a god or not if there are no people left to care?"

INDEED.

12/30/2008 3:45:52 PM